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she will not start if the temp is under freezing im lost need some help by fierostl63114
Started on: 03-05-2014 10:46 AM
Replies: 18 (253 views)
Last post by: Joseph Upson on 03-09-2014 02:46 PM
fierostl63114
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Report this Post03-05-2014 10:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierostl63114Click Here to Email fierostl63114Send a Private Message to fierostl63114Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
hey guys I have a 1987 fiero I just bought I drove the car the first week and every thing was fine but now since the temp has dropped under 25 degrees she want start just keep turning like its not getting any gas has any had this problem....Midwest st.louis mo
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gem1138
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Report this Post03-05-2014 10:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for gem1138Click Here to Email gem1138Send a Private Message to gem1138Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Forgive me for suggesting the obvious, but water in the gas is the first thought. There are numerous gas additives with some form of alcohol that will mix with the water to burn it out.

FYI: I have a 2.8V6 and it has a cold start injector that works too well at 50-60 degrees making it hard to start. At 25, mine starts at the first turn of the engine. If the cold start injector isn't working, I'd expect it to be hard to start on any cool day and impossible at 25.

Sounds like water in your gas.
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trotterlg
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Report this Post03-05-2014 10:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for trotterlgClick Here to Email trotterlgSend a Private Message to trotterlgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Could be that some water is frozen in the fuel system, does the fuel pump run when you turn on the key? The cold start injector could be bad or unplugged. Probably a half dozen other things. Larry
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Report this Post03-05-2014 11:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Starting fluid, see if it starts on that.

Looks like temps are on the rise, you may be in luck
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tebailey
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Report this Post03-05-2014 06:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileyClick Here to Email tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When my daughter had her 84 Buick it was the same way. Under 20 degrees it lost spark. GM must have had problems with the 1.8 turbo engines since it came from the factory with a block heater.
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wftb
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Report this Post03-05-2014 06:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Put some gas line de-icer in the tank and take a hair dryer on high heat to the injector log areas .get it nice and warm around these areas and it should start right up .repeat the de-icer treatment for a couple of tank fulls and you should be rid of the water in your system .
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dematrix86gt
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Report this Post03-05-2014 06:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dematrix86gtClick Here to Email dematrix86gtSend a Private Message to dematrix86gtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This reminds me of A Christmas Story quote Oldsmobile man
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tebailey
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Report this Post03-05-2014 07:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileyClick Here to Email tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Must gas already has ethynol in it. That's what the de-icer is.
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wftb
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Report this Post03-06-2014 02:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
that is correct but water still gets in there during a cold winter .I have had to take the hair dryer to my snowblower and my portable generator this year .
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rogergarrison
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Report this Post03-06-2014 03:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The ice frozen in the fuel system is more likely in the line under the car and in the fuel filter. If its really bad in the tank, it could freeze at the sump. Water goes to the bottom.
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Phil
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Report this Post03-06-2014 05:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PhilClick Here to Email PhilSend a Private Message to PhilEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I had a somewhat similar situation with my SC3800. Below freezing the car would turn over but not start. If I put a jump pac on it it would start and then start for the rest of the day until it sat over night. Turned out to be a loose ground strap to the motor. There was enough power to spin the motor but the voltage would drop to about 9 volts and the ECM would shut down.
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84fiero123
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Report this Post03-06-2014 10:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As soon as it gets above freezing put an entire can of gas line antifreeze in it, run it and you shouldn't have the problem again this season. you should always put that in the tank in the winter if you don't keep the tank full all the time or in a heated garage. the less gas in the tank is the more condensation will get in the tank and this will happen any time the temps get below freezing.

Steve

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Joseph Upson
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Report this Post03-07-2014 08:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I doubt it's ice in the lines as the ethanol in the fuel will help dilute the condensation to prevent the pooling of water in the tank. You may very likely be dealing with the likelihood that it is dangerously cold to start the motor at that temperature simply because the oil is not going to reach the bearings and other areas of the engine for lubrication for a very long time for a motor at that temperature and it may therefore be a borderline programming calibration that makes starting very difficult for this reason;

Fuel injector pulse time/startup fuel calibration is adjusted according to the engine temperature at startup and since you are attempting to start the motor at the lower extreme of that calibration table it is possible that the motor is not getting enough fuel because of old clogged injectors not flowing enough, or as someone mentioned indirectly, the startup voltage may not be high enough as there is also a battery voltage offset table that affects the fuel injector pulse time along with the temperature compensation table. Start up air fuel ratio at those temps per ECM calibration will probably be as low as 9:1 and in addition to that the cold motor will absorb a lot of the combustion pressure.

Try holding the accelerator pedal at about 45% as part throttle starts, provide more cranking fuel and wide open throttle starts enter clear flood mode and shut off fuel all together. Other wise you may need to jump start it due to insufficient cranking rpm.
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84fiero123
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Report this Post03-07-2014 08:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

I doubt it's ice in the lines as the ethanol in the fuel will help dilute the condensation to prevent the pooling of water in the tank. You may very likely be dealing with the likelihood that it is dangerously cold to start the motor at that temperature simply because the oil is not going to reach the bearings and other areas of the engine for lubrication for a very long time for a motor at that temperature and it may therefore be a borderline programming calibration that makes starting very difficult for this reason;

Fuel injector pulse time/startup fuel calibration is adjusted according to the engine temperature at startup and since you are attempting to start the motor at the lower extreme of that calibration table it is possible that the motor is not getting enough fuel because of old clogged injectors not flowing enough, or as someone mentioned indirectly, the startup voltage may not be high enough as there is also a battery voltage offset table that affects the fuel injector pulse time along with the temperature compensation table. Start up air fuel ratio at those temps per ECM calibration will probably be as low as 9:1 and in addition to that the cold motor will absorb a lot of the combustion pressure.

Try holding the accelerator pedal at about 45% as part throttle starts, provide more cranking fuel and wide open throttle starts enter clear flood mode and shut off fuel all together. Other wise you may need to jump start it due to insufficient cranking rpm.


All it takes is one short section of fuel line with not enough dry gas/ethanol in it and seeing it is only happening when it is below freezing I would say its water in the gas. living in Maine temps can get to -20 below 0 F and I have never had a car not start for the reasons you posted. Could it happen, sure, but not likely.

Steve
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Joseph Upson
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Report this Post03-07-2014 09:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:
All it takes is one short section of fuel line with not enough dry gas/ethanol in it and seeing it is only happening when it is below freezing I would say its water in the gas. living in Maine temps can get to -20 below 0 F and I have never had a car not start for the reasons you posted. Could it happen, sure, but not likely.
Steve


Possibly, however, that's assuming the water contamination is remaining consistent day after day despite finally getting the motor running and fuel refills which is highly unlikely. I'd say the consistency parallels the constant and unchanging data in the chip, the very thick oil at those temps and the low voltage that will accompany that scenario more consistently than any transient condensation in the tank. Water freezes at ~32 F, so the symptoms he's experiencing should be present by at least 30 deg F.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 03-07-2014).]

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84fiero123
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Report this Post03-08-2014 01:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


Possibly, however, that's assuming the water contamination is remaining consistent day after day despite finally getting the motor running and fuel refills which is highly unlikely. I'd say the consistency parallels the constant and unchanging data in the chip, the very thick oil at those temps and the low voltage that will accompany that scenario more consistently than any transient condensation in the tank. Water freezes at ~32 F, so the symptoms he's experiencing should be present by at least 30 deg F.




 
quote
Originally posted by fierostl63114:

hey guys I have a 1987 fiero I just bought I drove the car the first week and every thing was fine but now since the temp has dropped under 25 degrees she want start just keep turning like its not getting any gas has any had this problem....Midwest st.louis mo


he can solve the question by spraying some starting fluid in the intake, if it fires then its most likely the water, you should always keep your gas tank as close to full as you can in winter to avoid condensation, that is your enemy in the winter. get a little water anywhere in the line and you will have no pressure to the injectors, no pressure to the injectors is a no fuel situation at the engine.

Start with the easiest to check first before going on to the more complicated and expensive to fix.

Steve
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fierostl63114
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Report this Post03-08-2014 02:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierostl63114Click Here to Email fierostl63114Send a Private Message to fierostl63114Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
thanks for the help I put some antifreeze in the gas tank and she started right up but the temp has been above freezing temp so really time will tell but thanks for the help again
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84fiero123
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Report this Post03-09-2014 11:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierostl63114:

thanks for the help I put some antifreeze in the gas tank and she started right up but the temp has been above freezing temp so really time will tell but thanks for the help again


Keep us informed if you have the problem again if it goes below freezing, but as I had said earlier keep putting some dry gas into the tank at every fill up as a precaution to prevent gas line freeze up. Better safe than sorry.

Steve
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Joseph Upson
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Report this Post03-09-2014 02:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm certainly interested in hearing what the actual problem is as I never ran into a problem starting my old 2.8 MPFI at near zero degrees F in Kansas even after sitting for nearly a month and I notoriously ran a low 16 gal tank during a time when it was just as hard to find gas with ethanol in it as it is to find it without it now. I also believe water in the tank would be more likely to settle below the baffle and away from the pump after rolling off the tank wall. I'd put my money on a slow crank/battery voltage/amp for the temps as the problems is too consistent and unusual relative to all the other Fieros under similar conditions without the same problem.
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