Click here to visit Black Top Racing | View all sponsors
  Pennock's Fiero Forum
  Technical Discussion & Questions
  How common is a slipped balancer ring?

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version


next newest topic | next oldest topic
How common is a slipped balancer ring? by John DeHaan
Started on: 02-05-2014 11:45 AM
Replies: 13 (284 views)
Last post by: Bruce on 02-07-2014 05:37 PM
John DeHaan
Member

Posts: 22
From: Wilsonville, Or, USA
Registered: Oct 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

02-05-2014 11:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for John DeHaanSend a Private Message to John DeHaanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hey Fella's, I've got a problem I have never run into before. I cant time my 2.8 with a light.
First a little back ground; Ive been a mechanic my entire life, I'm 62, (its not my first rodeo), I've been building fast cars all my life,mostly sports cars. I'd say I have a fair bit of experience.
That said, I have a situation new to me.
I have gone thru the ignition timing sequence several times and can not get the timing mark visible at the mark. The grooves on the balancer have all been painted, TDC groove highlighted, ALDL jumpered to base mode.
I can not get any of the marks anywhere near 10* . I have tried using all the wires, including the coil wire as the trigger.
My suspician is a slipped balancer ring or a sheared/ missing crank key. I have set the large timing groove to 10* and the #1 piston is nowhere near TDC.
I can time it by ear, and it runs quite well. I'd like to set it properly.
Any ideas?
I hope you guys can teach this old dog a new trick or two.

John (Mongo)

IP: Logged

Dodgerunner
Member

Posts: 9653
From: Lincoln, Nebraska
Registered: Sep 2004


Feedback score:    (59)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 324
Rate this member

02-05-2014 12:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DodgerunnerClick Here to visit Dodgerunner's HomePageClick Here to Email DodgerunnerSend a Private Message to DodgerunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

On a 20 year of car original it could slip. What I do to check it is take an old spark plug and knock the guts out of it. Weld or glue a bolt in the end to it sticks out about 1/2 inch. Put it in the #1 plug hole. (be sure the piston is down) Unplug the coil to be safe. Then slowly turn the enging both directions until the piston contacts the bolt. put a mark at TDC each place it stops. You timing mark should be inbetween the marks. If not you know it slipped.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7z4dGfpfjI

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 02-05-2014).]

IP: Logged

Bloozberry
Member

Posts: 7523
From: Nova Scotia Canada
Registered: Jan 2009


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 291
Rate this member

02-05-2014 12:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

There are at least a half dozen guys on PFF that have experienced slipped rings on their harmonic dampers, so it's relatively rare but not unheard of. There are several threads discussing it too, if you do a search. I believe PFF member Phonedawgz posted a few close up photos in one thread that showed the relationship between the timing groove and some other feature on the hub. If they're not aligned, then you know the ring has slipped.

IP: Logged

Blacktree
Member

Posts: 16350
From: Central Florida
Registered: Dec 2001


Feedback score: (5)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 333
Rate this member

02-05-2014 01:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

It's not too common, but does happen every so often.

The fun starts when you go to buy a new harmonic balancer. As far as I know, they aren't made specifically for the Fiero anymore. So you have to buy a balancer for another vehicle with the same engine, and scribe your own timing mark.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 02-05-2014).]

IP: Logged

Lou6t4gto
Member

Posts: 5943
From: Ocala, FL USA
Registered: May 2008


Feedback score:    (6)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

02-05-2014 01:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou6t4gtoClick Here to Email Lou6t4gtoSend a Private Message to Lou6t4gtoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Dodgerunner Said it ! . I've been building cars since the early 60s and only experienced it twice ! I did the same thing with and old Plug to check "True TDC"

IP: Logged

Patrick
Member

Posts: 19526
From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 367
Rate this member

02-05-2014 02:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by John DeHaan:

My suspician is a slipped balancer ring...


Bingo!

Because it happened to me, I sort of follow how often it's reported here... and I wouldn't say it's all that rare. With the original harmonic balancers being 25 years old or so now, I suspect the problem will only continue to get worse.

I posted the following five years ago...

 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

I had rebuilt my distributor, so I needed to time the engine when I put the distributor back in. I had never worked on a 2.8L engine before I bought this '86 GT in March (as my other Fieros are Dukes), so everything/anything I'm doing on this engine is new to me.

Well, no matter what I did I couldn't get the dog-gone engine timed properly. When I followed the proper procedure, the engine would stall at 10 degrees BTDC.

To make a LONG story short, it appears the outer hub of the harmonic balancer has spun on its rubber mount. Just my luck the FIRST time I ever try to time a 2.8L engine, the timing marks are all screwed up.

Anyway, just for now I've inscribed a new timing mark on the harmonic balancer. This mark really is at TDC. Once I did that, timing the engine was a piece of cake.

If anyone has a good used harmonic balancer in their stockpile of spare parts, please give me a shout!


Notice the dreaded red X in the follow-up post where a non-PIP hosted image had been copied and used.

 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

Finally got a harmonic balancer to replace the one which had “spun” on my GT. Here’s a picture of what I saw after I took the crank pulley off. Notice where the main timing mark and keyway are.




Now compare the relationship of the timing mark and keyway with this image that JazzMan posted of a good balancer.




Had a heck of a time finding a long enough metric bolt at various hardware stores to use to pull the replacement harmonic balancer back on!



Here's how the main timing mark and keyway are supposed to line up with each other on a Fiero 2.8 balancer.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-05-2014).]

IP: Logged

phonedawgz
Member

Posts: 15863
From: Green Bay, WI USA
Registered: Dec 2009


Feedback score:    (20)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 283
Rate this member

02-05-2014 02:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

How it should line up - Only the notch with the arrow pointing to it applies to the stock balancer.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 02-05-2014).]

IP: Logged

css9450
Member

Posts: 3815
From: Glen Ellyn, Illinois, USA
Registered: Nov 2002


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 73
Rate this member

02-05-2014 03:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for css9450Click Here to Email css9450Send a Private Message to css9450Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I forgot who it was - but someone on here mentioned having (or knowing someone who had) a car where the outer ring would continue to spin for several seconds after the engine was shut off. The rubber sleeve in between the hub and the outer ring was entirely gone!

IP: Logged

85 SE VIN 9
Member

Posts: 690
From: Harwood Heights, IL, USA
Registered: Apr 2010


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

02-05-2014 07:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I wonder if harmonic balancer problems are not more common. Belt squeal is one symptom of a bad harmonic balancer, for instance. The Damper Doctor in California seems to be the only source for correct balancers and they were out of stock when I needed one last year. They will rebuild yours if possible, but that's a lot of shipping for much of the country.

IP: Logged

Raydar
Member

Posts: 33773
From: West ATL GA 'burbs Douglasville
Registered: Oct 1999


Feedback score:    (9)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 425
Rate this member

02-05-2014 08:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

My 4.9 calls for 10 degrees of initial advance.
Set with a timing light, it won't pull a fat lady out of a donut shop. I added advance until I got just a little bit of ping, and then backed it off a degree or two. Ended up being something near an "additional" ten degrees. Runs great, now, set "by ear".

I really don't have any problem leaving it that way. I always used to set my advance by ear, as did my dad. If I ever have to do anything else to that end of the motor, I may pop for a new balancer. Otherwise, it's good as it is.

IP: Logged

85 SE VIN 9
Member

Posts: 690
From: Harwood Heights, IL, USA
Registered: Apr 2010


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

02-05-2014 09:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

They claim the balancer is kinda critical to saving your engine from shaking itself to pieces. Something about the crankshaft and related parts can fail. BTW ATI (at Summit Racing) has balancers for the Fiero, for three bills, plus, and they don't look the same. I'm not sure how you put the pulley on.

IP: Logged

John DeHaan
Member

Posts: 22
From: Wilsonville, Or, USA
Registered: Oct 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

02-06-2014 07:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for John DeHaanSend a Private Message to John DeHaanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks for the input fella's, all good stuff.

IP: Logged

BrittB
Member

Posts: 370
From: Keizer, OR
Registered: Dec 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

02-07-2014 10:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BrittBSend a Private Message to BrittBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Setting the timing is something I still have to do on my 2.8. I am close now but I know it could be better and a slipped ring is something I didn't know about, thanks for the heads up!

IP: Logged

Bruce
Member

Posts: 1982
From: Ventura, California, USA
Registered: May 99


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

02-07-2014 05:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BruceClick Here to Email BruceSend a Private Message to BruceEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I replaced my balancer with a part from The Fiero Store, but I think you have to let the installer that he has to mark the replacement differently from the original. TFS will tell you exactly what to do.
I was lucky that I replaced my harmonic balancer when I did, since the stock piece (86 GT) was literally falling apart. 28 years is a long time to hope that some of the moving parts will last much longer.

IP: Logged


next newest topic | next oldest topic

All times are ET (US)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Back To Main Page

Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery | Ogre's Cave
Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock