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2.8 ignition coil by Csjag
Started on: 01-23-2014 08:17 PM
Replies: 23 (1043 views)
Last post by: AL87 on 01-26-2014 07:26 PM
Csjag
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Report this Post01-23-2014 08:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What's the consensus of the best ignition coil, plug wires and cap and rotor for the 85 GT 2.8? Are the high output coils and the low resistance wires worth the extra money, do they make a noticeable difference?

Thanks
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AL87
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Report this Post01-23-2014 09:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AL87Click Here to Email AL87Send a Private Message to AL87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
from my experience, blowing a few oe and standard replacement coils.
if you just want to drive the car around as transport then a standard coil is fine.
but if you want to drive it hard, spiritedly, or race it. Accel and MSD both make replacements that should last and keep up with the higher demand.

EDIT: not sure if this matters to anyone else, but its relevant to an 88 I4 coupe with DIS. accel and msd also make replacements for these.

[This message has been edited by AL87 (edited 01-23-2014).]

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Patrick
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Report this Post01-23-2014 10:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

It's been said here a hundred times... there's no performance gain using an aftermarket ignition coil on the 2.8 (or duke).
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uhlanstan
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Report this Post01-23-2014 11:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for uhlanstanClick Here to Email uhlanstanSend a Private Message to uhlanstanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The MSD coil is superior use jacob or MSD
the hi performance coils do make a difference , there will be no horsepower gain over the Delco coil
it is not only horsepower that make a car go faster or perform better tuning an engine is a lost art
people want immediate gain .
Mag wheels were originated to help F1 cars accelerate out of the turns faster ,so lite weigh wheels
help a car accelerate up to 20 mph & help Mpg because it takes less power to get the car moving
it took years for this simple fact to become well known,accepted on this forum, I jump for joy when I first saw another
forum member mention this . Same thing with thermo quiet brake pads,I hammered away..
a hot performance ignition coil will make some cars faster ,but the main purpose is to assist & enhanse other performance
modifications!! efficientcy,torque,, NOW, it is all about buying proven performance Items ,
to have the fastest car you have to get down to basics, after you buy your goodies get the other .5 seconds,phasing,spark plug mods,indexing,precise timing
a tire that is street legal & has excellent grip,,lighter drive train components ,a better distributor module,turtleling the intake
I originally drilled the outer edge of my rear brake rotors,,but replaced with grand am calipers ..My clutch plate is drilled ,,if you have a Fiero drag racer
you want drag lite /centerline /ect. wheels , that weigh 12 pounds to give you the hole shot,,if the crankshaft moves it ,,it has to be lighter, balanced!! I use to race motorcycles, I was not a good rider ,but my Triumph TR120 was the fastest,I sucked dirt in the turns.
when some other car is beating you by .2 seconds, find modifications that will give you .3 / .4 that are cheap !!
some of the turbo mufflers make more power than a straight pipe in DYNO test.

the best modification you can make to the 2.8/3.1/3.4 V6 & buick 3.8 V6 is to have a paid professional flow bench porting job,,
you are not the famous doctor air !!
this post is based totally on reports from performance magazines (car craft,hot rod,popular hot rodding,ect.)

[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 01-24-2014).]

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Csjag
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Report this Post01-24-2014 06:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am mainly interested in quick throttle response which I think makes a car fun to drive. Will the MSD coil, taylor wires and distributor cap and rotor give me that?i
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masospaghetti
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Report this Post01-24-2014 08:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for masospaghettiClick Here to Email masospaghettiSend a Private Message to masospaghettiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A good stock coil will provide good spark until the engine runs out of air, without major upgrades to the engine.

Unless you think your coil is worn out or breaking down there's no reason to replace it.
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Fiero84Freak
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Report this Post01-24-2014 01:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero84FreakClick Here to Email Fiero84FreakSend a Private Message to Fiero84FreakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Csjag:

I am mainly interested in quick throttle response which I think makes a car fun to drive. Will the MSD coil, taylor wires and distributor cap and rotor give me that?i


The issue is ultimately you're looking in the 'wrong' area to increase throttle response. The stock ECM - unlike some more modern systems - does not compensate in noticeable manners for increased spark delivery or higher octane fuel loads, for example. So you would be wasting money upgrading to ignition components that do not yeild any significant gain.

And going slightly off above about air in the engine, this is where some significant gains can be seen when you increase air flow. It goes beyond the concept of just something like a cold air intake though. Since the stock 2.8L Fiero intake is incredibly restrictive, this is where such installaton of aftermerket components can see gains in throttle. However, such parts will not come cheap.
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olejoedad
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Report this Post01-24-2014 02:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Good throttle response is a function of timing and component condition.
The 2.8 timing procedure splits the timing between #1 and #4. Even though the desired mechanical setting is 10°, sometimes a bit more or less is the sweet spot for the motor. The only way to determine the sweet spot is to repeat the timing proceedure until the engine 'wakes up'.
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AL87
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Report this Post01-24-2014 06:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AL87Click Here to Email AL87Send a Private Message to AL87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

Good throttle response is a function of timing and component condition.
The 2.8 timing procedure splits the timing between #1 and #4. Even though the desired mechanical setting is 10°, sometimes a bit more or less is the sweet spot for the motor. The only way to determine the sweet spot is to repeat the timing proceedure until the engine 'wakes up'.


NOT ALOT of people know about the balanced timing between 1 and 4!!!

also to add, the octane of your fuel also helps. theres something about adjusting the timing based on your octane. I cant remember. but I think that you could retard your ignition timing some instead of like 10* btdc, it could be 15* or something.

[This message has been edited by AL87 (edited 01-25-2014).]

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lateFormula
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Report this Post01-24-2014 06:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lateFormulaSend a Private Message to lateFormulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The easiest way to set timing on a 2.8/3.1/3.4 is to clip the inductive lead of the timing gun to the coil lead. You will set the timing on all cylinders that way. The larger painted groove in the balancer will show up on cylinders 1 and 4, but the harmonic balancer for those engines has two smaller grooves that are 120 degrees apart from each other. Those smaller grooves will be illuminated for cylinders 2, 3, 5, and 6.

[This message has been edited by lateFormula (edited 01-24-2014).]

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Harold James Kie
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Report this Post01-24-2014 08:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Harold James KieClick Here to Email Harold James KieSend a Private Message to Harold James KieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think it is all covered in the responding posts very well. If you do go to an aftermarket coil find the best gap for the plugs. You can increase the gap a bit at a time but without testing the car on a track or dyno you will not know of any real benefit. Hot Rod Magazine ran an article a few years back and gave a formula for getting the optimum gap. I took my 454 out to .065 and it ran ok but would stall on hard acceleration. Go .002-.003 over at a time and check your fuel economy. One thing that you could try is flare and polish the air control assembly. It has a blunt entry and can be taken out to a near razor edge. That and remove the butterfly and shaft and grind the shaft down to about one half of it's normal diameter. Be careful not to go any wider than the bore. Grind or file the retaining screws to a tear drop shape and epoxy in the phillips slot and peen them on the back side so they cannot come loose. The butterfly itself can be made more aerodynamic by filing the leading and trailing edges to create an air foil. Remove the material from the leading edge all from the back side of the edge of the butterfly and remove the material from the front edge on the opposite side so you get quicker throttle response. Do not change the diameter of the butterfly! These are things that I learned from reading racing journals from people like Smokey Yunick. I know that this maybe just splitting hairs but if you are trying to gain a little here and a little there it will all help and it won't have an adverse affect on your fuel mileage, not to mention the fun in trying new things. Better driving habits will take care of that.
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Report this Post01-25-2014 01:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WKDFIROClick Here to Email WKDFIROSend a Private Message to WKDFIROEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Back in the day (I'm talking the 90s), and I would concede that things may have gotten better, but the MSD ignition coil looked pretty, but didn't seem to do much. Jacobs and ACCEL seemed to have a really bad time with heat build up so if you wanted to use them they had to be routed in the trunk which seemed overly complicated. When my ignition coil gave up the ghost I used a Borg Warner to get back home or have it in my tool bag in case someone else on a road trip needed it or to troubleshoot. But using an AC Delco ignition coil was mandatory equipment for my Fiero. When I wanted more performance on an otherwise stock 2.8 (and I matchported intake/exhaust, worked heads, mild cam, roller tip rockers and stressed relieved the block) I stayed with the AC Delco for its reliability. Sure, maybe the others would give me a stronger spark for a while, but I didn't trust them if I was stuck in traffic going home from the hard summer road trip/Fiero outing or just from work.

Also, when my 87 coupe lost a DIS (just one) it was at 300,000 miles so I replaced it with AC Delco as well and the old Fieros West crowd will remember I ran that thing like a mad man after I got the Hooker Tri-Y headers.

Cap and rotor? I could use any manufacturer but I did like Taylor wires for the low resistance but more for the reason that I could cut and build them to the correct length.

Hope that helps the op.
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Csjag
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Report this Post01-25-2014 09:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks everyone for your input, I am not ready to get into porting or polishing anything so I think I will leave everything stock and save my $$$. I will do a good tune up though and check timing. I guess I am getting ahead of myself anyway because I haven't replaced the fuel pump and driven the car yet. I am eager to drive it because the only Fiero I have driven so far is my 85 duke that I saved from the scrapyard.
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Report this Post01-25-2014 10:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AL87:


NOT ALOT of people know about the balanced timing between 1 and 4!!!

also to add, the octane of your fuel also helps. theres something about adjusting the timing based on your octane. I cant remember. but I think that you could retard your ignition timing some instead of like 10* btdc, it could be 5* or something.


B. S. - octane needs are soley based on effective compression ratio. Higher octane fuel burns slower and ignites at a higher temperature.
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AL87
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Report this Post01-25-2014 09:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AL87Click Here to Email AL87Send a Private Message to AL87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:


B. S. - octane needs are soley based on effective compression ratio. Higher octane fuel burns slower and ignites at a higher temperature.


then why do performance vehicles use higher octane? racecars? ping?
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ericjon262
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Report this Post01-25-2014 09:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AL87:


then why do performance vehicles use higher octane? racecars? ping?


most performance engines run higher effective compression....

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 01-25-2014).]

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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post01-26-2014 09:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I agree the air is more important than the ignition components. I have two 85 2.8's. The GT has at least a K&N filter and much more pep than the SE. I added 8.8 Accel wires, an Accel coil, cap, and rotor, and Bosch irirdium plugs to the SE. There was no noticeable improvement in performance or mileage. I used to always use premium, but the GT actually seems to run better on mid grade, except when it comes to starting, so I've gone back to using premium when it's so ungodly cold. As someone else noted, the horsepower gain from removing the drag from the waterpump (using electric drive or an electric pump) is far more significant than any of these other mods.
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AL87
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Report this Post01-26-2014 03:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AL87Click Here to Email AL87Send a Private Message to AL87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:


most performance engines run higher effective compression....


we're off topic. so I'll close. with this.

you aren't wrong. the higher the compression, the higher the octane of fuel needed (to prevent ping).

the more advanced the timing is the more power it should make. if you run low octane you can get ping and that is bad.
you can increase the octane, or decrease the advance. either-or.
logically, the higher the octane, the more advance you can run safely. and thus the more power you can make.
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Report this Post01-26-2014 04:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My experience with the MSD ignition coil seems to suggest that it's sensitive to heat soak. And on a Fiero V6, the coil sits right on top of the exhaust pipe. On my V6, I had to relocate the MSD coil away from the exhaust, because the coil would start acting up after the engine warmed up.

As for plug wires, my personal favorite is Taylor. But I think most of the name brands should suffice. Just avoid the el cheapo parts store wires, because they're crap.

As for the cap & rotor, all the ones I used (Bosch, MSD, BWD) seemed to work fine.
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Csjag
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Report this Post01-26-2014 05:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks Blacktree. Any experience with the Accel high output coil. the one I put on my 85 duke really perked it up.
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ericjon262
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Report this Post01-26-2014 05:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AL87:

we're off topic. so I'll close. with this.

you aren't wrong. the higher the compression, the higher the octane of fuel needed (to prevent ping).

the more advanced the timing is the more power it should make. if you run low octane you can get ping and that is bad.
you can increase the octane, or decrease the advance. either-or.
logically, the higher the octane, the more advance you can run safely. and thus the more power you can make.


this is not true. more timing does not equal more power in all cases, not even close. there is a point where more timing will decrease power in every engine, with or without detonation. this point is very attainable with modern combustion chamber designs.

because the octane rating of fuel is effectively the fuels resistance to combustion, too high of fuel octane will reduce engine power, efficient power is all about finding the balance between octane rating, timing advance, and combustion characteristics.
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Report this Post01-26-2014 06:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

ericjon262

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quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

My experience with the MSD ignition coil seems to suggest that it's sensitive to heat soak. And on a Fiero V6, the coil sits right on top of the exhaust pipe. On my V6, I had to relocate the MSD coil away from the exhaust, because the coil would start acting up after the engine warmed up.

As for plug wires, my personal favorite is Taylor. But I think most of the name brands should suffice. Just avoid the el cheapo parts store wires, because they're crap.

As for the cap & rotor, all the ones I used (Bosch, MSD, BWD) seemed to work fine.


I agree on the taylor wires, they are very high quality.

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ericjon262
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Report this Post01-26-2014 06:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

ericjon262

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quote
Originally posted by Csjag:

Thanks Blacktree. Any experience with the Accel high output coil. the one I put on my 85 duke really perked it up.


in reality, if the accel coil made a difference, it was most likely only because the stock coil was beginning to fail.
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AL87
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Report this Post01-26-2014 07:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AL87Click Here to Email AL87Send a Private Message to AL87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262: efficient power is all about finding the balance between octane rating, timing advance, and combustion characteristics.


THERE WE GO!
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