I have 6 LS series coils that I want to use on my L67 swap. I don't believe that a stock 6cyl ECM could run the individual coils. Is it possible with an O.E. ECM? Could a LS series ECM be programmed for 6cyl? and understand the crankshaft sensor? I was planning on using a Megasquirt 3 but I can get a O.E. style ECM so much cheaper. Forgive the apparent ignorance, I've never had to custom program an ECM before.
I have 6 LS series coils that I want to use on my L67 swap. I don't believe that a stock 6cyl ECM could run the individual coils. Is it possible with an O.E. ECM? Could a LS series ECM be programmed for 6cyl? and understand the crankshaft sensor? I was planning on using a Megasquirt 3 but I can get a O.E. style ECM so much cheaper. Forgive the apparent ignorance, I've never had to custom program an ECM before.
I'm not going to say it's impossible, but it would definitely be difficult, the only way I could see that it MIGHT work without massive amounts of programming, would be to use the short* programming.
------------------ we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...
why do i want to use the coils? person preference, i like these coils and don't like the v6 coil pack/module combo. if it's not possible the reprogram a stock ecm, i'll just go with the megasquirt 3
the short* still uses coil packs doesn't it? just different styles than the L67 alldata shows 6 driver circuits from ecm to modules. if the internals of the modules just control power and do nothing for the timing it should work. i think.
you can tell i'm new here, can't get the pictures to work, D'OH!
[This message has been edited by conan469 (edited 01-16-2014).]
Its been done before and it wasn't cheap. Look up the thread on clubgp. If you're doing it because you think you'll gain a bunch of power, you will be disappointed. Remember the fastest 3800's in the world are on stock ignition coils, and ICM.
Its been done before and it wasn't cheap. Look up the thread on clubgp. If you're doing it because you think you'll gain a bunch of power, you will be disappointed. Remember the fastest 3800's in the world are on stock ignition coils, and ICM.
I never said I was looking for more power, I just don't like the oe icm and coil pack. I've had too many bad experiences with them over the years doing diagnostic work. And I think they are ugly.
no I rather replace them, just something i want to do. so to further that i printed out ecm connector views for a 2001 buick park ave ultra (donor harness and engine) and 2001 aurora 3.5 (potential donor ecm) and almost all terminals match, obviously ignition drivers and crank sensor input are a little different. but it looks like if i used the short* ecm i would only have to change the way the ecm sees the crank sensor and wire the coils in, rewire for different firing order and some o2s are in different spots
Its been done before and it wasn't cheap. Look up the thread on clubgp. If you're doing it because you think you'll gain a bunch of power, you will be disappointed. Remember the fastest 3800's in the world are on stock ignition coils, and ICM.
That information is not ENTIRELY true... There has been a bunch of work going into ignition upgrades lately (and during the faster runs) on us 800hp+ guys. The biggest problem is the not so great crank trigger setup on the 3800, wasted spark on high rpms, and not so much the coils though. Replacing the ignition module is the real upgrade to make in the ignition system not the coils.
The stock 3800 coil/ignition setup is AMAZING and is a well known upgrade for high dollar turbo Porsche cars. The factory PCM is also a very very good PCM, so getting rid of it is a complete shame to the point that I would suggest that you leave the fuel injection duty to the ecu, but run a custom standalone spark setup out of a MS2 (logic driven LS coils make for a quick setup on the MS2 boards if you didnt want to pay the premium for the MS3), which is the direction I have taken with a local's car for his ignition upgrade. It obviously wouldnt be hard to setup a VE minded megasquirt if you have the spark running correctly, but it is really a shame to ditch the stock pcm.
You might be able to hack some other stupid GM ecu in, but you are not saving yourself any time over the MS2/3... Its a pipe dream and its no cost or time savings in reality, while a MS or a stock PCM is going to be just fine. Remember you are trying to switch around GM PCM's from a motor running off an ignition module to logic driven coil on plug.. which in the ECU world is similar to the difference between a carburetor and sequential fuel injection.
If you want to hide the coils, they work very well mounted near the oil pan.
So a ms2 will run the LS coils? I must have missed that in their website. And i've spent a lot of time on their websites. I realise that most if not all of you guys on here probably think i'm nuts for wanting to do this, but i really hate the coil pack setup, i've had to replace countless numbers of them for many different types of failures. From no starts to only half the icm working to the dreaded "dies when hot, ok when cold" or the intermittent loss of various signals. My plan is for this to be my every day car, so i feel i need to replace/eliminate what i feel is the most problematic part. Having said that, what are the chances of getting the short* program/ecm to work that engine uses a different style of coil pack, that pack is just coils with no timing control in the icm
the PCM sends a signal for each coil in a shortstar, now if there's a way to make that compatible with the 3800 using LSx coils, I'm not sure. I haven't really gotten to far into programming yet.
------------------ we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...
the PCM sends a signal for each coil in a shortstar, now if there's a way to make that compatible with the 3800 using LSx coils, I'm not sure. I haven't really gotten to far into programming yet.
What signal though? Does it drop a logic ground? 5v+? 12V+? going high pulse? Going low pulse? Leading edge? Falling edge? There is unlimited issues with doing a conversion without specific knowledge of the electronics at play.
quote
So a ms2 will run the LS coils? I must have missed that in their website. And i've spent a lot of time on their websites. I realise that most if not all of you guys on here probably think i'm nuts for wanting to do this, but i really hate the coil pack setup, i've had to replace countless numbers of them for many different types of failures. From no starts to only half the icm working to the dreaded "dies when hot, ok when cold" or the intermittent loss of various signals. My plan is for this to be my every day car, so i feel i need to replace/eliminate what i feel is the most problematic part. Having said that, what are the chances of getting the short* program/ecm to work that engine uses a different style of coil pack, that pack is just coils with no timing control in the icm
I have owned, driven, built, worked on, troubleshooted, and been intensively involved in the world of 3800s where coils/ignition modules have been installed in crazy locations, beaten up, etc... and I can easily say they are the most reliable part of any car I have ever worked with. The ICM is basically bulletproof, save 1 or maybe 2 failures i have seen of them... The coils tend to die out but its not hard to expect a coil failure on 15-20 year old stuff after 200k miles.
If you are going to "increase reliability" by installing a megasquirt then you might want to get into model T's, or Lada's, a steam car, or some other car with abysmal reliability.
Originally posted by darkhorizon: What signal though? Does it drop a logic ground? 5v+? 12V+? going high pulse? Going low pulse? Leading edge? Falling edge? There is unlimited issues with doing a conversion without specific knowledge of the electronics at play.
I didn't say it would be easy, I just said it was there. I am working on getting the equipment to learn more on this though. looking at a couple of different o-scopes, and a jimstim. this is something I have wanted to do with my car, but haven't had time to investigate.
[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 01-20-2014).]
I have owned, driven, built, worked on, troubleshooted, and been intensively involved in the world of 3800s where coils/ignition modules have been installed in crazy locations, beaten up, etc... and I can easily say they are the most reliable part of any car I have ever worked with. The ICM is basically bulletproof, save 1 or maybe 2 failures i have seen of them... The coils tend to die out but its not hard to expect a coil failure on 15-20 year old stuff after 200k miles.
If you are going to "increase reliability" by installing a megasquirt then you might want to get into model T's, or Lada's, a steam car, or some other car with abysmal reliability.
Sorry i asked the question. I thought that maybe someone had done it or knew what might be needed to accomplish it. I didnt mean to offend any one by saying that i didn't like the coil packs, but I still stand behind my belief that the coilpack setup on the 3800 is ugly and i dont want it on my engine.
[This message has been edited by conan469 (edited 01-19-2014).]
Here's a dumb question: Since the DIS setup uses each coil pack to drive two cylinders, how about replacing each coil pack with a pair of COP coils wired together? You'd still have waste spark, and you'd keep the stock ICM. But the coils could be remote from the ICM, which would allow it to be hidden out of sight.
Sorry i asked the question. I thought that maybe someone had done it or knew what might be needed to accomplish it. I didnt mean to offend any one by saying that i didn't like the coil packs, but I still stand behind my belief that the coilpack setup on the 3800 is ugly and i dont want it on my engine.
he is right, the system is just plain bullet proof. it wouldn't be hard to make a cover or relocate the coils if you don't like the looks. the LSX coils aren't exactly pretty either, I don't really see an aesthetic advantage there, and if you say I'll just put them somewhere else, that same option is available with the 3800 ignition.
again i disagree with the bulletproof description of the coilpack, I've replaced countless units from various failures. these cars were daily drivers, not weekend fun cars, so the coilpacks were subjected to different conditions. and since i plan on driving mine everyday i want to eliminate the coilpack. since i don't currently have an ecm for the motor i will need to buy something, so i figured i'll buy the setup i want. my decision, if you don't agree, sorry. i'm not trying to fight with anyone, i was just looking for some helpful ideas to get my idea working.
again i disagree with the bulletproof description of the coilpack, I've replaced countless units from various failures. these cars were daily drivers, not weekend fun cars, so the coilpacks were subjected to different conditions. and since i plan on driving mine everyday i want to eliminate the coilpack. since i don't currently have an ecm for the motor i will need to buy something, so i figured i'll buy the setup i want. my decision, if you don't agree, sorry. i'm not trying to fight with anyone, i was just looking for some helpful ideas to get my idea working.
if you consider the coil pack unreliable... you're playing with the wrong make and model car.
i recently read a post by pennock about the decline of sites like these and how new people are not joining at as high a rate as in the past. one reason that was noted was peoples tendencies to belittle others ideas instead of helping.
i've been a mechanic for 25 yrs, ASE certified for 15yrs, i've specialized mostly in GM cars. therefore i feel i'm qualified to my opinion. i've seen brand new acdelco ignition modules fail a week after installing them. and they are supposed to be the best and most reliable. i've replace so many coils from failure or terminal corrosion that i don't even want to look at them anymore. remember i'm talking about daily driven vehicles, rain, cold, snow, all the things that most of you wouldn't subject your nice cars to. and i plan on driving the heck out of my car, the only reason i'm building it is to drive, i have no plans of entering a car show of any kind. nor do i have plans to race it in any fashion, drag or road race.
i recently read a post by pennock about the decline of sites like these and how new people are not joining at as high a rate as in the past. one reason that was noted was peoples tendencies to belittle others ideas instead of helping.
i've been a mechanic for 25 yrs, ASE certified for 15yrs, i've specialized mostly in GM cars. therefore i feel i'm qualified to my opinion.
Other people here also feel the same way. You know just as much about the people responding to your post as they do about you... if you think that no one on the Fiero board is competent enough with the components used on stock engines, then perhaps you should find a forum that is more to your liking.
You obviously don't need the permission of people on this forum to do what you want to your car and it is obvious from the comments that no one here has done what you are contemplating. People are going to respond with their opinions, it's the Internet. You can either take your ball and go home , or show everyone how it's done.
It happens every day.
[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 01-20-2014).]
Other people here also feel the same way. You know just as much about the people responding to your post as they do about you... if you think that no one on the Fiero board is competent enough with the components used on stock engines, then perhaps you should find a forum that is more to your liking.
You obviously don't need the permission of people on this forum to do what you want to your car and it is obvious from the comments that no one here has done what you are contemplating. People are going to respond with their opinions, it's the Internet. You can either take your ball and go home , or show everyone how it's done.
It happens every day.
looks like he took his ball and went home... unfortunate, because I would have liked to have seen this done.
FWIW, I think JNCOMUTT was running coil per cylinder using an AEM standalone in conjunction with a stock PCM.
------------------ we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...
I thought my posts were fairly good... I have more experience with his project than "Mr. 25 year grease monkey", but people like him are too full of themselves to listen to people like me.... Sorta a bigger slap in the face to say that im mocking him after taking my time to give him educated, detailed, and specific advice on his problem.
I thought my posts were fairly good... ""What signal though? Does it drop a logic ground? 5v+? 12V+? going high pulse? Going low pulse? Leading edge? Falling edge? There is unlimited issues with doing a conversion without specific knowledge of the electronics at play.""
I have more experience with his project than "Mr. 25 year grease monkey", but people like him are too full of themselves to listen to people like me.... Sorta a bigger slap in the face to say that im mocking him after taking my time to give him educated, detailed, and specific advice on his problem.
educated, detailed, and specific advice?
""I have owned, driven, built, worked on, troubleshooted, and been intensively involved in the world of 3800s where coils/ignition modules have been installed in crazy locations, beaten up, etc... and I can easily say they are the most reliable part of any car I have ever worked with. The ICM is basically bulletproof, save 1 or maybe 2 failures i have seen of them... The coils tend to die out but its not hard to expect a coil failure on 15-20 year old stuff after 200k miles.""
just because you have experience at one thing doesn't make you the expert on this subject.
i don't have to listen to you, it's my project, if you don't agree don't waste thread space. if you think your advise is so valuable ask for money next time before you post. and I am not full of myself, I am not a grease monkey. i never claimed to be an expert on anything, my decision to try to eliminate the coil pack is based on my experience and my preference. again if you don't like the fact that i'm trying to eliminate the coil pack look away or sue me.
again I was asking IF any one had done this with an oe ecm, apparently no one has that anyone knows of. so I will pursue the megasquirt option. i was hoping to use the 3800 wiring harness i have because i think i could get the ecm prettty cheap. a lot cheaper than the megasquirt.
I didn't say it would be easy, I just said it was there. I am working on getting the equipment to learn more on this though. looking at a couple of different o-scopes, and a jimstim. this is something I have wanted to do with my car, but haven't had time to investigate.
the megasquirt website has a page that describes how the LS coils are triggered, i think it is a simple on/off +5v signal. several other gm systems seem to use the same setup. i don't have experiance swapping and programming newer ecms, since they rarely ever fail, (only replaced 3 in the last 2 yrs) as opposed to the old gm ecms with prom chips that failed a lot (probalbly replaced 5 to 10 a year back in the day) so i don't know which ecm would be easier to reprogram for what i'm trying to do.
[This message has been edited by conan469 (edited 01-23-2014).]
Yay! You didn't leave. DH can be abrasive but he knows what he's talking about most of the time. He just really seems to like making sure other people know when he thinks they are wrong...
You just gotta decide if you're going to let it get to you or not. I laugh a lot when I read this forum.
[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 01-23-2014).]
i'm always open to help and suggestions, but I don't see a need to criticize any one just cause you don't agree with their choice. i would never tell someone they're stupid cause they wanted to paint their fiero pink, (i hate the color) or bolt on rims I don't like, but if it's what they want and it makes them happy I support it it's their car not mine.
[This message has been edited by conan469 (edited 01-23-2014).]
I've been running them for years as mentioned above. I dwell the hell out of them, and they run great. They may not be better than stock coils but I run larger plug gap than most I've seen on cgp. I haven't had either style coil fail on me so I don't think it's a reliability issue. If you have the means to control them, why not? Nice short plug wires, and people are always confused when they see them on a v6, lol.
I've been running them for years as mentioned above. I dwell the hell out of them, and they run great. They may not be better than stock coils but I run larger plug gap than most I've seen on cgp. I haven't had either style coil fail on me so I don't think it's a reliability issue. If you have the means to control them, why not? Nice short plug wires, and people are always confused when they see them on a v6, lol.
so how did you do it? what ecm? AEM external coil driver? I'm not finding it on their website.
[This message has been edited by conan469 (edited 01-23-2014).]
Originally posted by conan469: again I was asking IF any one had done this with an oe ecm, apparently no one has that anyone knows of. so I will pursue the megasquirt option. i was hoping to use the 3800 wiring harness i have because i think i could get the ecm prettty cheap. a lot cheaper than the megasquirt.
dude really??
quote
The factory PCM is also a very very good PCM, so getting rid of it is a complete shame to the point that I would suggest that you leave the fuel injection duty to the ecu, but run a custom standalone spark setup out of a MS2 (logic driven LS coils make for a quick setup on the MS2 boards if you didnt want to pay the premium for the MS3), which is the direction I have taken with a local's car for his ignition upgrade. It obviously wouldnt be hard to setup a VE minded megasquirt if you have the spark running correctly, but it is really a shame to ditch the stock pcm.
There is specific instructions.
and here is proof you didnt even pretend to read what I posted.
quote
the megasquirt website has a page that describes how the LS coils are triggered, i think it is a simple on/off +5v signal. several other gm systems seem to use the same setup.
I run LS coils on my MS2 for my honda... I built the MS2 spark module myself.... I gave you the specific electrical requirements to trigger a LS coil, yet you still say im wrong based on "i think this page somewhere says its 5 volts".
You say I have "attitude" issues, but the reality is you are more concerned about detecting attitude in a post where i challenge your position instead of reading why I challenge your position.... Then you COMPLETELY OVERLOOK the detailed solution I created for the problem I challenged.
The jury is still out on if I have an attitude problem, but you for sure have a temper problem.
i don't have a temper problem, and i've heard from several people on here that you do have an attitude problem.
anyway... i agree the stock ecm is a great computer, very fast and very very reliable, but I DON"T HAVE ONE! i got this engine for $125 came with complete harness and no ecm. so telling me to keep the stock ecm is irrelevant. therefore i was asking if it was possible with one ecm purchase, like a short* ecm. buying 2 ecms isn't in my plans.
[This message has been edited by conan469 (edited 01-23-2014).]
, or show everyone how it's done. 
