Pennock's Fiero Forum
  Technical Discussion & Questions
  3.4 PR vs 3.4 DOHC vs 3.4SFI (Page 2)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version

This topic is 3 pages long:  1   2   3 
Previous Page | Next Page
next newest topic | next oldest topic
3.4 PR vs 3.4 DOHC vs 3.4SFI by zzzhuh
Started on: 01-10-2014 02:46 AM
Replies: 96 (4846 views)
Last post by: bcampbell on 03-19-2014 02:35 PM
Old Lar
Member
Posts: 13797
From: Palm Bay, Florida
Registered: Nov 1999


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 214
Rate this member

Report this Post01-16-2014 02:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Old LarSend a Private Message to Old LarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It all depends on what you want to do with the Fiero. I had a 3.4 crate engine installed in my 88GT about 70,000 miles ago as I wanted a reliable cruising car also a 4 speed auto transmission. It is no way a performance car, but it will cruise down the highway at 70 mph, get close to 30 mpg and will handle like the car was built for.
IP: Logged
lou_dias
Member
Posts: 5252
From: Warwick, RI
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 67
Rate this member

Report this Post01-16-2014 02:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
Not true. GM produced the F-body with a GEN1 iron-head, 60 deg, 3.1L MFI V6 from 1990-1992. They also produced FWD minivans with essentially the same 3.1L engine (exc it only had TBI fuel injection) from 1990-1995.

Yeah that "longitudal" section wasn't always there in the "wiki"...
IP: Logged
sleevePAPA
Member
Posts: 776
From:
Registered: Jan 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-16-2014 02:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sleevePAPASend a Private Message to sleevePAPAEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

Yeah that "longitudal" section wasn't always there in the "wiki"...


The iron head 3.1 engine was most commonly used in chevy MPV's

IP: Logged
Slowbuild
Member
Posts: 252
From: British Columbia
Registered: Nov 2009


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-16-2014 03:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SlowbuildSend a Private Message to SlowbuildEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have a 3.4 PR (Or 3.4 SFI if you like). Don't do it. I had to turbo it to get performance level that I liked. IMO, not worth the work.

I would do a 3400 or 3500, non VVT, with a '7730. Or, if you are not ever going turbo, keep the OBDII original computer. Way more potential with a turbo than the 3.4 clunker.

The nice part about the '7730 is that the tools to tune it are out there (Moates.com).


Chay
IP: Logged
86GTFastback
Member
Posts: 347
From: Marion, OH, US
Registered: Apr 2009


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-16-2014 07:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86GTFastbackSend a Private Message to 86GTFastbackEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I haven't driven a 3.4 SFI or PR, I have driven a fairly modified 2.8, a DOHC and a 3.8 s/c (stock and fairly modified). If the 3.8 was out of the question, I'd go with a DOHC, the power band on those things is amazing. It hits 3k and pulls and pulls to redline, but reliability is a question. Plus afterwards if you have money to play with later you can turbo it and make some nice power.
IP: Logged
lou_dias
Member
Posts: 5252
From: Warwick, RI
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 67
Rate this member

Report this Post01-17-2014 10:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 86GTFastback:
I haven't driven a 3.4 SFI or PR, I have driven a fairly modified 2.8, a DOHC and a 3.8 s/c (stock and fairly modified). If the 3.8 was out of the question, I'd go with a DOHC, the power band on those things is amazing. It hits 3k and pulls and pulls to redline, but reliability is a question. Plus afterwards if you have money to play with later you can turbo it and make some nice power.

A "stock" 3.4 DOHC (also know as 3.4 TDC, 3.4 twin dual overhead cam) dynos at 185 rwhp.
As stated before, a 3.4 PR swap will net you 135rwhp to 205rwhp depending on the level of mods you put into it.
The mods are not rocket science:
ported intake with DAWG neck mod, or Trueleo intake
57mm throttle body
ported heads
performance cam
ported exhaust manifolds and cross-over pipe (I recommend Trueleo headers or similar and 2.5" exhaust)
minimum of 17# injectors (usually comes with the 3.4 engine donor)
roller rockers (don't settle for roller tip, go full roller, 3X00 engines have 1.6 roller rockers stock)

So yes, you'll only gain 20rwhp over a 2.8 if all you swap is the block...

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 01-17-2014).]

IP: Logged
ttt123
Member
Posts: 314
From: lapeer,mi,usa
Registered: Jan 2008


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-17-2014 11:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ttt123Send a Private Message to ttt123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
i have never driven anything other then a 2.8 stock fiero... what does 185rwhp(modded 3.4l) feel like in a fiero vs a 2.8 stock vs a 3.8sc ???
IP: Logged
Custom2M4
Member
Posts: 4414
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada
Registered: Sep 2004


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 114
Rate this member

Report this Post01-17-2014 07:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Custom2M4Send a Private Message to Custom2M4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Guys were running mid 13s in 220hp crank fieros if I recall correctly (3.4l carb and built applications) be sure to consult the 1/4 mile directory for more information.

------------------

[This message has been edited by Custom2M4 (edited 01-17-2014).]

IP: Logged
qwikgta
Member
Posts: 4659
From: Virginia Beach, VA
Registered: Jan 2001


Feedback score:    (21)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 84
Rate this member

Report this Post01-18-2014 12:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
having done the 2.5L to 3.4 DOHC to LS3 swap in the same car, I can tell you that whatever engine you swap to, you will want more power soon after finishing the last swap.

in my opinion, going from 2.8L to 3.4L, you are not getting enough "bang for the buck". You will not be happy a few months after driving this around.

I tell everyone, every single person I can, that the only swap you should do for your first swap is going 3800. NA or SC, its up to you, but don't waste your time with any other swap.

Its not that much more expensive, and if you do it right the first time, you will get years and years of great driving out of it, you will not need to upgrade your power, you will have enough from the start.

I understand that you have to plan out your budget, but if the difference between a 3.4L and a 3800 swap is 2-3K, you will still kick yourself in the a** later for not doing it right the first time.

Rob

------------------


88 Coupe, CJB T-TOP, LS376 and a GT clip
88 GT, SIII 3800NA/Auto swap underway
LS Build Thread: //www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/083204.html
LS on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAH9yjw6XR0
3800 build thread: //www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/089035.html

IP: Logged
lou_dias
Member
Posts: 5252
From: Warwick, RI
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 67
Rate this member

Report this Post01-18-2014 01:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by qwikgta:
Having done the 2.5L to 3.4 DOHC to LS3 swap in the same car, I can tell you that whatever engine you swap to, you will want more power soon after finishing the last swap.

I agree we always, regardless of the swap want more. Speed is addicting.

 
quote
in my opinion, going from 2.8L to 3.4L, you are not getting enough "bang for the buck". You will not be happy a few months after driving this around.

I think the people who do that are the people who just swap blocks and nothing else. My first 3.1 rebuild with Engle cam made more power than my first 3.4 swap. That was very disappointing. It doesn't take much to get a 3.4 swap to 150rwhp and that is a different animal than a 2.8.

 
quote
I tell everyone, every single person I can, that the only swap you should do for your first swap is going 3800. NA or SC, its up to you, but don't waste your time with any other swap.

Its not that much more expensive, and if you do it right the first time, you will get years and years of great driving out of it, you will not need to upgrade your power, you will have enough from the start.

I agree and that's been my advice lately, despite the aluminum head 6/60 crowd not accepting that their motors are just an expensive and time consuming stop-gap... I myself am at the point where I'm either going to sell 2 of my 3 Fieros and get the new NSX in 2015 or sell my formula and send my 4.9 car to Archie for a real V8 and a body kit. A 4.9 is a good upgrade for a 2.5, not a 2.8. When a 3.4 with mods can make more hp than a 4.9, you know it's not a real V8...

 
quote

I understand that you have to plan out your budget, but if the difference between a 3.4L and a 3800 swap is 2-3K, you will still kick yourself in the a** later for not doing it right the first time.
Rob

I think the OP would do well to specify what his budget is. You can do a block swap and then "port" the exhaust manifolds and crossover for practically free and make 140+rwhp. The only think that can't be done after the swap is a cam upgrade, so if there is money to be spent now, it should be there. Everything else after that is a bolt-on that can be done in stages.
IP: Logged
lou_dias
Member
Posts: 5252
From: Warwick, RI
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 67
Rate this member

Report this Post01-18-2014 01:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

lou_dias

5252 posts
Member since Jun 2000
 
quote
Originally posted by ttt123:
i have never driven anything other then a 2.8 stock fiero... what does 185rwhp(modded 3.4l) feel like in a fiero vs a 2.8 stock vs a 3.8sc ???

&
 
quote
Originally posted by Custom2M4:

Guys were running mid 13s in 220hp crank fieros if I recall correctly (3.4l carb and built applications) be sure to consult the 1/4 mile directory for more information.

4.9L V8 swapped Fieros usually make about 17X rwhp and have done high 13's in the 1/4 mile. That also depends on the driver and how much weight you're pushing down the track...
I think 1 person with a stock 85GT did a 14.9 pass. Typically a 2.8 is a low 15 second 1/4 mile car, with a manual tranny, of course.

In a Fiero with a manual transmission, the driveline+friction losses add up to about 25hp. So when a 2.8 makes 140HP (crank HP), it's 115 RWhp (rear wheel). A 160HP stock 3.4 makes 135 rwhp in a Fiero. So when I made 187rwhp, I was making 212 HP with my 3.4 (however that was on a Mustang dyno so I was probably closer to 195rwhp)... That's why a 200hp 4.9 swap gets you 175 rwhp...which is exactly what my 4.9 dyno'd at 2 years ago.
It's just a good rule to go by.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 01-18-2014).]

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
carbon
Member
Posts: 4767
From: Eagan, MN
Registered: Apr 2004


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 132
Rate this member

Report this Post01-20-2014 09:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:
I agree and that's been my advice lately, despite the aluminum head 6/60 crowd not accepting that their motors are just an expensive and time consuming stop-gap...


... despite the fact that you have made absolutely no attempt to run aluminum heads? ... despite the fact that you ignore or dismiss any an all evidence provided for you as somehow cheating or goes against your anecdotal information about circle tracks and general statements. And the fact that your claims about the 6/60 engine series are laughed at everywhere but here, well even here sometimes. You never back up your claims reliably, you post a dyno sheet as evidence of your success and then you dismiss it later as a fluke with tuning issues, and then refer to it again as proof, over and over again. You constantly speak as an authority on all things 60* when you have only had experience with your undocumented iron heads.

Here we have Caffeine's 86 4spd Fiero with a stock 3500 and a crinkle bend y-pipe to hook up the stock 3500 manifolds with none of the money you spent on Fiero intake modifications and iron head porting:


And then we have a guy in Iowa who always uses the same dyno and has built multiple 3400 and 3500 engines:
 
quote
Superdave

Here are some from our adventures.. all on the same dyno.

Damon's Sunbird with the stock 3400, had around 90K on it.


Here was one of Moonwell's, i think this was before we put the longtubes on it. (3400, MMS Stage 2 cam, mild porting, good tune)

Here was Brads (overlay from previous year).. iirc it's a stock 3400 with a 3500 UIM, 65mm TB and i think it had a UDP.

If you are wondering, the small black number near the red HP number is the torque being produced at peak HP on these charts...

And here is an overlay with a really good 3400 block with a modified iron head based top end and a really good 3500 with a modified AL head based top end. Just to give an idea about the amount of work, money, spent on different setups.

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 01-20-2014).]

IP: Logged
carbon
Member
Posts: 4767
From: Eagan, MN
Registered: Apr 2004


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 132
Rate this member

Report this Post01-20-2014 11:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

carbon

4767 posts
Member since Apr 2004
The best bang for your buck/effort is going to be the Series II/III 3800 Supercharged for the near future. There is no way to deny it, it just is.

The naturally aspirated 3800 vs. 3500 (LX9) is up to which you can get cheaper. They both make similar power, but the 3800 will probably be cheaper...

My particular reason for wanting the 3500 is decent NA power, and not everyone has one. I, honestly, am biased. I am tired of looking at the same 3800 swap repeated 50 times at Fiero shows. This one has a red blower, that one has a gray blower...

The only argument you can really make for the 3.4 TDC is whether you want it or not. It is not the easiest swap, sure it bolts right in, just like a 3500 or 3400 does, but it has just as much effort required as to the wiring and exhaust fabrication as any other swap.

The only "Easy" swap is the 3.4L from the F-body as it will run decently, but not optimally, on the Fiero ECM with proper injectors and requires only a hole plug to be removed and the starter holes drilled on the correct side.

Lou is absolutely correct in that you should state your budget as all the nut swinging in the world by people on the internet won't get your project done... only your wallet and your hands can do that.
IP: Logged
lou_dias
Member
Posts: 5252
From: Warwick, RI
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 67
Rate this member

Report this Post01-20-2014 11:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It's really amusing to see your two posts, one after the other.
You chastise me in the 1st then vindicate me in the 2nd.
IP: Logged
carbon
Member
Posts: 4767
From: Eagan, MN
Registered: Apr 2004


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 132
Rate this member

Report this Post01-20-2014 11:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ttt123:

i have never driven anything other then a 2.8 stock fiero... what does 185rwhp(modded 3.4l) feel like in a fiero vs a 2.8 stock vs a 3.8sc ???


It feels like fun. Don't let people tell you that a swap is worthless if it's less than a Supercharged 3800... a 3.4DOHC or a Quad4 swapped Fiero with a manual transmission is an absolute blast to drive on roads. Not to mention the soundtrack... A naturally aspirated 3800 with a 2.97 4T65e can also be a great freeway cruiser and get you over 30MPG. They just won't win if your goal is to go really fast in a straight line.

The problem with the 3.4DOHC and 3.4L Camaro engines is that they have been on the road or in the junk yard for a looooong time now. A 1993 Camaro is now over 20 years old... the oldest 3.4DOHC is even older with the youngest 1997 being 17 years old. Sure there is still NOS, but it's not the cheapest way to get things.
IP: Logged
carbon
Member
Posts: 4767
From: Eagan, MN
Registered: Apr 2004


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 132
Rate this member

Report this Post01-20-2014 11:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

carbon

4767 posts
Member since Apr 2004
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

It's really amusing to see your two posts, one after the other.
You chastise me in the 1st then vindicate me in the 2nd.


That's because I don't hate you, Lou, nor do I think you're an idiot.

Your statement, that I don't agree with, is that the 6/60 is just an expensive and time consuming stop gap. For you? Perhaps... For everyone? Not even close.

Only an idiot would argue that the 3800SC is not curently the most cost effective swap for a Fiero.

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 01-20-2014).]

IP: Logged
sleevePAPA
Member
Posts: 776
From:
Registered: Jan 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-20-2014 03:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sleevePAPASend a Private Message to sleevePAPAEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just ignore Lou, seems he knows it all and sh!ts up every thread he sticks his nose into.
IP: Logged
carbon
Member
Posts: 4767
From: Eagan, MN
Registered: Apr 2004


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 132
Rate this member

Report this Post01-20-2014 03:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sleevePAPA:

Just ignore Lou, seems he knows it all and sh!ts up every thread he sticks his nose into.


Uncalled for, man, uncalled for...
IP: Logged
lou_dias
Member
Posts: 5252
From: Warwick, RI
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 67
Rate this member

Report this Post01-20-2014 03:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sleevePAPA:
Just ignore Lou, seems he knows it all and sh!ts up every thread he sticks his nose into.

This coming from a guy who joined the forum just to bash me because I posted a dyno of a 3.4 making comparable power to the almighty aluminum head engines...
IP: Logged
sleevePAPA
Member
Posts: 776
From:
Registered: Jan 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-20-2014 04:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sleevePAPASend a Private Message to sleevePAPAEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

This coming from a guy who joined the forum just to bash me because I posted a dyno of a 3.4 making comparable power to the almighty aluminum head engines...

And 10 years ago you knew that 3x00 heads were better, and preached to everyone in your scientific tone.

IP: Logged
sleevePAPA
Member
Posts: 776
From:
Registered: Jan 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-20-2014 04:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sleevePAPASend a Private Message to sleevePAPAEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

sleevePAPA

776 posts
Member since Jan 2013
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:


Uncalled for, man, uncalled for...


Yeah I know, I have no patience for BS today

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
lou_dias
Member
Posts: 5252
From: Warwick, RI
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 67
Rate this member

Report this Post01-20-2014 04:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sleevePAPA:

And 10 years ago you knew that 3x00 heads were better, and preached to everyone in your scientific tone.

No, I thought based on marketing. It's funny how you can hear a tone from reading words. Stock for stock, they are better but that doesn't mean porting iron heads can't match aluminum heads, which someone's CNC-ported iron heads did. The issue is switching to aluminum heads is a lot more custom fab work vs. head porting.

With under 400 posts (as of now), I'm pretty sure 200 of them have been directed at me. You should get a better hobby.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 01-20-2014).]

IP: Logged
sleevePAPA
Member
Posts: 776
From:
Registered: Jan 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-20-2014 04:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sleevePAPASend a Private Message to sleevePAPAEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

No, I thought based on marketing. It's funny how you can hear a tone from reading words. Stock for stock, they are better but that doesn't mean porting iron heads can't match aluminum heads, which someone's CNC-ported iron heads did. The issue is switching to aluminum heads is a lot more custom fab work vs. head porting.

With under 400 posts (as of now), I'm pretty sure 200 of them have been directed at me. You should get a better hobby.



Preach on, brother!

IP: Logged
sleevePAPA
Member
Posts: 776
From:
Registered: Jan 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-20-2014 05:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sleevePAPASend a Private Message to sleevePAPAEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

sleevePAPA

776 posts
Member since Jan 2013
OP,

3.4 F body 660=probably the best bang for the buck, easy to swap and easy to tune

3400 660= mechanically a fairly easy swap with accurate information. Tuning needs to be addressed

3500 non VVT= more involved swap but heads are revised and flow better than 3.4 or 3400 heads, can easily crest 200whp. Need some fab skills or have some $$$. Tuning needs to be addressed.

Pick your flavor, just about every combination of the 660 has been accomplished here so theres a wealth of information floating around. If you want more details of the 660, 60degreev6.com is where the pro's are.

IP: Logged
Blacktree
Member
Posts: 20770
From: Central Florida
Registered: Dec 2001


Feedback score:    (12)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 350
Rate this member

Report this Post01-20-2014 06:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by zzzhuh:

Thank you Blacktree for a straight answer. From what I understand it's kinda like this

3.4PR:
Easiest swap, less expensive, high reliability, but only has about 20 more HP than stock

3.4DOHC:
Hardest swap, most expensive, reliability is questionable, but has the most power (and maybe the most aftermarket?)

3.4SFI:
Hard swap (wiring) semi-expensive, reliability is high, weighs almost nothing, and has medium power but can be upgraded to be similar to the DOHC.

I think you have the gist of it. However, I think the 3.4TDC actually has the least aftermarket support. And out of the three, I think the 3.4 PR has the most aftermarket support, simply because it can use a lot of 2.8 V6 parts (cyl heads, camshafts, valvetrain components, intake & exhaust manifolds, etc). But like mentioned earlier, the iron heads on the 3.4 PR are a limiting factor. You'd have to port them pretty aggressively to get similar flow to the stock 3400 SFI heads.

One more thing: to do an engine swap and do it right, you're probably going to spend a couple grand, minimum.
IP: Logged
ericjon262
Member
Posts: 3082
From: everywhere.
Registered: Jan 2010


Feedback score:    (10)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 66
Rate this member

Report this Post01-20-2014 10:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
the 3400 swap shouldn't be considered a hard swap, it's not really any harder then converting a 2.8 to DIS with a 7730. there are off the shelf tune available for them too as swapped into a fiero. the engine can become a more or less bolt in swap if you swap an 87+2.8 timing cover on.

------------------
we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...

Built not bought... Because bolt-ons don't.

//www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

IP: Logged
masospaghetti
Member
Posts: 2477
From: Charlotte, NC USA
Registered: Dec 2009


Feedback score:    (10)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-21-2014 09:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for masospaghettiSend a Private Message to masospaghettiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The 3400 still requires some fab work, the 2.8/7730 does not. Dogbone, wiring modifications, decklid notch/alternator relocation, new a/c plumbing, new coolant plumbing and surge tank, cruise control brackets, intake plumbing, EGR...etc etc

Not saying its not a good swap, its relatively easy as far as swaps go, but I think its a longshot to say its "about as easy" as just converting computers and installing DIS.
IP: Logged
carbon
Member
Posts: 4767
From: Eagan, MN
Registered: Apr 2004


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 132
Rate this member

Report this Post01-21-2014 09:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

I think you have the gist of it. However, I think the 3.4TDC actually has the least aftermarket support. And out of the three, I think the 3.4 PR has the most aftermarket support, simply because it can use a lot of 2.8 V6 parts (cyl heads, camshafts, valvetrain components, intake & exhaust manifolds, etc).


I agree about the 3.4TDC having very little support. There are cam regrinds available and there is some part swapping between the early and late versions, but other than that, it is what it is. (220HP and a glorious sound )

However, with the advent of vendors like WOT-TECH and Milzy... I would say that the 3100, 3400 and 3500(LX9) have the most aftermarket support.

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 01-21-2014).]

IP: Logged
bcampbell
Member
Posts: 260
From: B.C., Canada
Registered: Nov 2011


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-21-2014 10:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bcampbellSend a Private Message to bcampbellEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:
With a 3400, since you have to build a new exhaust for it, you're looking at 170 rwhp as a base. In one extreme case a 3500 has done 275 rwhp in another car, heavily modded, of course.


Heavily modded? AFAIK it was just ported heads, ported intakes, custom cam, valve springs, pushrods. After the ITBs went on it made less hp than with the ported stock intakes.

My stock 3500 swap using 3500 exhaust manifolds and stock Fiero air box made 205whp/250tq. It's the same as a 3400 swap with an external crank trigger and cable TB adapter.

As for potential vs. the 3800 NA, the highest dyno I found with a quick search was 271whp and that was with high compression pistons and some other mods further than what it took to get a 3500 to 275.

Edit: found the link to the 3800 NA dyno. So in addition to what the 3500 needed it also got 11.9:1 pistons, bigger valves, aftermarket rockers, head studs and ARP rod bolts (although arguably the last two probably weren't necessary).

[This message has been edited by bcampbell (edited 01-21-2014).]

IP: Logged
bcampbell
Member
Posts: 260
From: B.C., Canada
Registered: Nov 2011


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-21-2014 11:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bcampbellSend a Private Message to bcampbellEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

bcampbell

260 posts
Member since Nov 2011
Cost wise I'll try to break down MY 3500 swap. It's possible I've spent the least out of anyone here on a 3500. 3400s are even cheaper to swap because you don't need the crank trigger, TB adapter, or TB and the engine should already come with a set of coils. You could probably shave $3-400 from the swap cost by using a 3400.

Engine, external crank trigger, 3400 DIS coils, aluminum cradle bushings (sold as package to me) - $600 abandoned Fiero swap project
TB adapter - $70 shipped
65mm TB - $65 JY
7730 ECM with all the wiring pigtails I needed - $50 JY
Brand new 88 flywheel - $60
Knock sensor - $10 JY (parts store wanted $100... I said NO WAY haha)
Brand new Vette fuel filter/regulator - $40
New front motor mount - $10
Alternator (01 Malibu) with bracket - $50 JY
Rad hoses - Free (I bought a Firebird shell ages ago that came with a set off Goodyear blue 'performance' rad hoses; I was able to use two of the big hoses and 1 for a heater core line. The other one I found some used hose to use for)
Moates chip adapter - $65 shipped
Oil filter - $3
Oil - $15 (Mobil 1)
New Crank sensor - $30
Accessory belt - $35
Misc wiring supplies - $10-15
Coolant filler - $5 (garden hose adapter )
Air intake consisting of 45* 3" coupler and 6" long 3" exhaust pipe - $26
Fuel line/adapters - $50
Exhaust y-pipe to stock Fiero muffler - $275, probably paid WAY too much for this.
Custom dog-bone mount built for me (I had no welder) - $100

That pretty much covers everything I paid for. Somewhere around $1500. I did NOT upgrade the clutch. If I had access to a pull-it-yourself type JY I could have realistically saved more money on the engine, TB, alternator, ECM, and knock sensor, and probably found some other parts there to save even more. If I had a welder I could have built a BETTER Y-pipe for probably under $50 and the dog-bone mount for pennies. I tuned it myself rather than buy a swap chip to save some cash. I dynoed my car with all the parts listed above and the stock clutch never slipped.

Now that I've modified the engine further, I also know how 'expensive' it is to upgrade the engine. I won't cover the F23 swap that I did at the same time.
Brand new ACT 6-puck clutch bought 2nd hand - $150
2nd hand cam, comp 26986 valve springs and matching pushrods - $180 (admittedly I did get a STEAL on these parts )
LIM gasket set and TC cover gasket set - $80 shipped
Head gaskets - $75 shipped
2.5" Turbo muffler - $26
Paint for intakes/TC cover - $15
Trailblazer injectors flow tested - $30
Pistons with valve reliefs cut in them - Free
Solid motor mounts - cost of welding wire and gas
If I were to go with ported heads the porting service WOT-tech offers is reasonably priced IMO. The heads already flow very well though.

Dyno coming within the next few months...

I've also gone the turbo route in a different car. Turbo wise it's no more expensive than turboing a 3800 IMO. The stock bottom end can handle a lot of boost for a long time.

I'm not bashing the 3800 at all since it IS a great platform and has more aftermarket but unless you're staying SC it's not necessarily cheaper. The SC engines afford a lot of cheap/easy mods but once you go beyond the capability of a SC the playing field starts to level out. N/A wise I don't even think it's a competition since the 3800 engines simply aren't as efficient to begin with.

For those people complaining about notching the decklid, this is how much of a notch mine needed:


VERY minor.

[This message has been edited by bcampbell (edited 01-21-2014).]

IP: Logged
lou_dias
Member
Posts: 5252
From: Warwick, RI
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 67
Rate this member

Report this Post01-22-2014 12:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bcampbell:


Heavily modded? AFAIK it was just ported heads, ported intakes, custom cam, valve springs, pushrods. After the ITBs went on it made less hp than with the ported stock intakes.

My stock 3500 swap using 3500 exhaust manifolds and stock Fiero air box made 205whp/250tq. It's the same as a 3400 swap with an external crank trigger and cable TB adapter.

It's funny how people's opinion of the term 'heavily modded' fluctuates...
I made 187/249 on a Mustang dyno which is more like 195/259 on a dynojet...
My build was ported Fiero intake (though leaving the major NECK restriction), ported heads and headers. No special valve spring mod other than FieroStore double spings and roller 1.6 rockers as required for the STOCK CAM....yet I'm the 'extremely modded 3.4'... /sigh
I changed pistons to simply keep my compression reasonable since stock 3400 pistons would have put me south of 7.5:1 on iron heads...they were off-the-shelf 3.4TDC pistons. I don't consider a standard rebuild as a extreme modification. It's a joke that this is used to label my 'build' EXTREME. I don't put used motors in my cars anymore...without a 'normal' rebuild. Been burned on too many used motors over the years.

Getting a custom cam for a build and making an exhaust with 1 5/8" primaries is much more extreme than what I did. I just slapped on Trueleo headers and kept the stock 3400 cam...however any 3400/3500 going into a Fiero is going to require a custom exhaust configuration. I wonder what rule is it that says if it's a "3.4" I have to stick with the stock Fiero exhaust or else my build is now 'EXTREMELY MODIFIED'...vs a 'stock 3400 in a Fiero'...

This is nothing against you, BCampbell, I'm just venting at the BS I keep getting from the AL-6/60 club in general because their bible says 'aluminum heads rule - iron heads drool' ... /lame
Now, let's all pretend we never saw La Fiera's CNC ported iron heads flow exactly what GEN3 AL heads flow stock (185cfm) despite removing the vane... Let's also pretend that Orief's 3.4 with (165cfm) heads with H272 cam didn't make 205 rwhp because hey - iron heads suck, right?

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 01-22-2014).]

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
carbon
Member
Posts: 4767
From: Eagan, MN
Registered: Apr 2004


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 132
Rate this member

Report this Post01-22-2014 02:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

It's funny how people's opinion of the term 'heavily modded' fluctuates... yet I'm the 'extremely modded 3.4'... /sigh



Lou Dias
  • Ported heads
  • Upgraded rockers and springs
  • Ported intake manifolds
  • Headers
  • New pistons


SuperDave
  • Ported heads
  • Upgraded springs
  • Ported intake manifolds
  • Headers
  • New cam


Personally, I would put replacing pistons right up there with replacing a cam as far as difficulty goes. He ordered a cam from a store and installed it.


Once again... similar amount of work done.

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 01-22-2014).]

IP: Logged
bcampbell
Member
Posts: 260
From: B.C., Canada
Registered: Nov 2011


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-22-2014 02:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bcampbellSend a Private Message to bcampbellEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

It's funny how people's opinion of the term 'heavily modded' fluctuates...
I made 187/249 on a Mustang dyno which is more like 195/259 on a dynojet...
My build was ported Fiero intake (though leaving the major NECK restriction), ported heads and headers. No special valve spring mod other than FieroStore double spings and roller 1.6 rockers as required for the STOCK CAM....yet I'm the 'extremely modded 3.4'... /sigh
I changed pistons to simply keep my compression reasonable since stock 3400 pistons would have put me south of 7.5:1 on iron heads...they were off-the-shelf 3.4TDC pistons. I don't consider a standard rebuild as a extreme modification. It's a joke that this is used to label my 'build' EXTREME. I don't put used motors in my cars anymore...without a 'normal' rebuild. Been burned on too many used motors over the years.

Getting a custom cam for a build and making an exhaust with 1 5/8" primaries is much more extreme than what I did. I just slapped on Trueleo headers and kept the stock 3400 cam...however any 3400/3500 going into a Fiero is going to require a custom exhaust configuration. I wonder what rule is it that says if it's a "3.4" I have to stick with the stock Fiero exhaust or else my build is now 'EXTREMELY MODIFIED'...vs a 'stock 3400 in a Fiero'...

Now, let's all pretend we never saw La Fiera's CNC ported iron heads flow exactly what GEN3 AL heads flow stock (185cfm) despite removing the vane... Let's also pretend that Orief's 3.4 with (165cfm) heads with H272 cam didn't make 205 rwhp because hey - iron heads suck, right?



I don't think I ever called your build extreme, but you're basically making my point for me. You're saying that precision ported iron heads can flow what stock aluminum heads flow. You've simply left out that the aluminum heads can be ported themselves for more flow. The fact is hands down the aluminum heads have more potential. You made almost the exact same hp/tq as a stock 3500. Now you're comparing what you did to my cammed motor? I'm sorta confused, but I'll straighten some things out. I didn't need a custom cam or special exhaust to make the power that I did. I recently put in the custom cam to make more power.

Theres NOTHING special about my exhaust. Stock manifolds, no mandrel bends, originally to a Fiero muffler, now to a cheapo turbo muffler and to a glasspack/tip. You're leaving out the FACT that if you wanted to use Truleo headers on a 3x00, you could; in fact I'm pretty sure there are those that have done exactly that. I have no doubt that your Truleo headers would perform better than 3500 manifolds, yet you're making it seem like my exhaust is something I specially designed for ultimate power. My exhaust was made on a budget and it's as plain as can be. Nowhere did I mention "making an exhaust with 1 5/8" primaries".

Then you bring up an iron head motor that made 205whp. Really?? Again you're comparing a motor with a big lopey cam to a stock engine. Do you really believe that a 3400/3500 WITHOUT ported heads wouldn't make more than 205whp even if you installed a flat tapped H272 cam in it?

For me it's not iron head vs. aluminum head really. It's more that it blows my mind that anyone would start with an aluminum head engine and then go and rewind it 10 years by putting old parts on it with less potential. If you're starting with an iron head block because that's what you already have, that's a little different.

Besides the aluminum heads, the 3x00s have more to offer as well. The DIS ignition system is far superior to the Fiero distributor setup and more reliable even in the heat of the Fiero engine bay. I don't think anyone would dispute that. The FWD timing cover setup is also nicer in that you get a nice squeal-free serpentine belt. It also happens to be more compact as well.


When it comes to JY used motors, here are my thoughts. You can significantly reduce your chances of getting a bad engine first by doing some tests to it. Most JYs around here perform compression tests on an engine before listing it for sale. If the motor has compression it's pretty much guaranteed to be able to run. Also, if it comes from a car that was hit in an accident, you can pretty much guarantee the engine was running at the time. If the engine has been leaking oil then it's usually pretty obvious just by looking at the engine. Find one with low miles (which is easy when you start with an engine that is as new as a 3500).
IP: Logged
carbon
Member
Posts: 4767
From: Eagan, MN
Registered: Apr 2004


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 132
Rate this member

Report this Post01-22-2014 02:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
bcampbell's dyno chart with a stock 3500 and cheap exhaust... just sayin'

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 01-22-2014).]

IP: Logged
lou_dias
Member
Posts: 5252
From: Warwick, RI
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 67
Rate this member

Report this Post01-22-2014 03:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:
bcampbell's dyno chart with a stock 3500 and cheap exhaust... just sayin'


But what is that saying?
What does that prove? That you'd much rather get 20X rwhp by spending more time on labor and fab work than by dropping heads and intake off to be ported? Heck, if you have the machining tooling, you don't have to drop anything off, just like if you like to weld, fabbing/welding is simple.
IP: Logged
Silicoan86
Member
Posts: 1614
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: May 2004


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-22-2014 08:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Silicoan86Send a Private Message to Silicoan86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

But what is that saying?
What does that prove? That you'd much rather get 20X rwhp by spending more time on labor and fab work than by dropping heads and intake off to be ported? Heck, if you have the machining tooling, you don't have to drop anything off, just like if you like to weld, fabbing/welding is simple.


I, for one, would much rather do a little fabrication to swap in a stock, more modern engine to get 200 whp, than to go through the process of rebuilding/modifying an engine and porting iron heads to get there. Porting heads is not something I consider cheap to pay someone to do, nor fun in any way to do myself.

If at some point down the road after the swap was complete I decided that I wanted more power, the capability is there. You? You're already tapped out. All of those modifications that you've done to yours could then be done to the 3500, and significantly more power would be had. I just don't see any benefit to what you've done compared to a full swap.

I like the fact that you've done what you've done because I'm glad that the data is available. IMO, it just further justifies the benefits of starting with an engine that has more potential.

[This message has been edited by Silicoan86 (edited 01-22-2014).]

IP: Logged
ericjon262
Member
Posts: 3082
From: everywhere.
Registered: Jan 2010


Feedback score:    (10)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 66
Rate this member

Report this Post01-22-2014 08:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

But what is that saying?
What does that prove? That you'd much rather get 20X rwhp by spending more time on labor and fab work than by dropping heads and intake off to be ported? Heck, if you have the machining tooling, you don't have to drop anything off, just like if you like to weld, fabbing/welding is simple.



it says alot, torque doesn't drop like a stone, it stays fairly even over a broad range. comparing an iron head engine to an aluminum head engine is like comparing a L98 to an LS1... pretty silly if you ask me. yeah, an L98 can make ok power, but a stock LS1 outdoes most L98's modded or not. area under the curve, it matters. it makes for a fast car.

Let's be honest, if you want to make better power, what's one of the first things on the list to go, on any engine? the exhaust. is your exhaust stock? I didn't think so, you swapped it to make more power just as many before you. Most of us on here do engine swaps to make more power, so it would be downright silly to use the stock crappy exhaust. You don't have to fab up the exhaust, there are people who will make headers for a 3x00 swap, just as there are people who make headers for the 2.8. or you can use stock 3x00 manifolds, some of which, flow ok, and have an exhaust mated to them. it's hot-rodding and engine swapping, it comes with the territory.

------------------
we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...

Built not bought... Because bolt-ons don't.

//www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

IP: Logged
bcampbell
Member
Posts: 260
From: B.C., Canada
Registered: Nov 2011


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-22-2014 09:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bcampbellSend a Private Message to bcampbellEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

But what is that saying?
What does that prove? That you'd much rather get 20X rwhp by spending more time on labor and fab work than by dropping heads and intake off to be ported? Heck, if you have the machining tooling, you don't have to drop anything off, just like if you like to weld, fabbing/welding is simple.


For comparisons sake, do you mind me asking how much it cost you to have your heads and intakes ported? I'd like to compare that, along with what you spent on the pistons, to what I paid for a custom mount and y-pipe along with the extra parts I needed.

Also, I'd be willing to bet that my completed swap took less time than it took you to have your heads/intakes ported, engine assembled, and installed in your car.

[This message has been edited by bcampbell (edited 01-22-2014).]

IP: Logged
lou_dias
Member
Posts: 5252
From: Warwick, RI
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 67
Rate this member

Report this Post01-23-2014 08:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bcampbell:
For comparisons sake, do you mind me asking how much it cost you to have your heads and intakes ported? I'd like to compare that, along with what you spent on the pistons, to what I paid for a custom mount and y-pipe along with the extra parts I needed.

Also, I'd be willing to bet that my completed swap took less time than it took you to have your heads/intakes ported, engine assembled, and installed in your car.

The guy had my heads for like 2 months but the actual port job was done in a day. He charged me more because all the heads he's been porting were aluminum and mines were iron. I'm pretty sure he was stapped for cash so it was somewhere between $1000 and $1400. However, I should also note user La Fiero offers CNC porting for $400 which flowbenched at 185 cfm but removes the vane that balances the air around the valve stem. At the time money was no object to me so I didn't care, I just wanted it done. He took another 2 days rebuilding my block and assembling it to the point of setting the valve lash and delivered it to the mechanic who installed it in the condition you see on page 1 of my thread.
My whole "build" took about 2 weeks once work was actually being done to the car including removal of the old motor and disassembly.

I spent extra money on stud adapters for the rocker arms to use full roller rockers rather than the stock roller rockers that cam with the 3400 donor, but that was my choice and others who've done a similar swap just use the 3400's stock roller rockers... Yes, believe it or not, several other members have gone this route and are happy with their results, though I'm the only one with a posted dyno it seems...and after the abuse I get, I don't blame them for remaining silent.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 01-23-2014).]

IP: Logged
lou_dias
Member
Posts: 5252
From: Warwick, RI
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 67
Rate this member

Report this Post01-23-2014 09:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

lou_dias

5252 posts
Member since Jun 2000
In the grand scheme of things:

I made 187 rwhp and 249 ft*lbs with an untuned average a/f ratio of 11.5:1 and a huge intake neck restriction with a distributor and Fiero ECM. You guys want to keep talking about how engine XYZ makes more power, but there was/is more left on the table of that setup.

I paid for a full rebuild and port job and have a *new* engine and I've put 15k abusive miles on it in 7 years and counting.
In fact, I recently got that old intake DAWG-modded and will be putting it back on and tuning it now that I'm running a '7730 and DIS. The DIS came with the used $500 3400 I used as a block&cam donor.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 01-23-2014).]

IP: Logged
Previous Page | Next Page

This topic is 3 pages long:  1   2   3 
next newest topic | next oldest topic

All times are ET (US)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Back To Main Page

Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery | Ogre's Cave
Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock