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l67 tuning question by larryfiero20
Started on: 01-06-2014 02:47 PM
Replies: 15 (538 views)
Last post by: cmechmann on 01-08-2014 10:55 PM
larryfiero20
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Report this Post01-06-2014 02:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for larryfiero20Click Here to Email larryfiero20Send a Private Message to larryfiero20Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok so I'm starting my 3800sc swap and reading alot of your write up's but I have one question, if I keep my egr and automatic transmission, what needs tuned out of the pcm? VATS? I'm planning on buying the tuner cat program for it the donor for everything is a 95 Buick riviera
thanks
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Report this Post01-06-2014 03:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It is cheaper, simpler and more dependable to just have someone program your PCM.
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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post01-06-2014 05:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by larryfiero20:

Ok so I'm starting my 3800sc swap and reading alot of your write up's but I have one question, if I keep my egr and automatic transmission, what needs tuned out of the pcm? VATS? I'm planning on buying the tuner cat program for it the donor for everything is a 95 Buick riviera
thanks


TunerCat is great software - that is what I use.

However, in order to do your own tuning, you are going to need much more than just the tuning software. You're either going to need an emulator or a chip burner. If you elect to buy only an emulator, you are going to need to leave that installed / hooked up to your PCM full time so it can run off your programming. Moates.net sells everything you need for burning, adapters, flash memory chips, etc. Minimum to do chip burning you are going to need the BURN2 for $85.00, the G4 mem-cal adapter for $40.00, and a 27SF512 flash memory chip for $5.00. This does not include the TunerCat software, of course.

Switching off VATS and any other trouble codes you don't need in the 95 programming is easy enough and just about anyone should be able to do it. If your engine is bone stock and you are keeping the automatic trans from the Riviera, then most everything else in the tune can be left alone. But changing things like shift points and such isn't hard to do either. What is difficult and requires learning how to do is reading and understanding scan data and then being able to determine what changes need to be made to the fuel and spark timing based on what the scan data says. And that is best left to the professionals unless you want to take the time and learn to do it yourself.

-ryan

------------------
OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 01-06-2014).]

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larryfiero20
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Report this Post01-06-2014 07:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for larryfiero20Click Here to Email larryfiero20Send a Private Message to larryfiero20Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok so the way I understand this (if I read your post correctly) is that tuning the engine is different than just switching off VATS and trouble codes. So in that case I should be able to buy the software kit from TunerCat to switch them off . Or will I need the emulator and/ or the chip burner too?
I would have someone else do it but I can't leave anything alone for any amount of time without messing with it, but also I like doing things myself and learning things like this.
thanks,
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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post01-07-2014 12:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by larryfiero20:

Ok so the way I understand this (if I read your post correctly) is that tuning the engine is different than just switching off VATS and trouble codes. So in that case I should be able to buy the software kit from TunerCat to switch them off . Or will I need the emulator and/ or the chip burner too?
I would have someone else do it but I can't leave anything alone for any amount of time without messing with it, but also I like doing things myself and learning things like this.
thanks,


The term "tuning" has been used to explain everything from just turning off VATS and other trouble codes to actually changing the fuel and spark settings to work with custom engine builds. It is a term probably used too broadly by most people.

If all you are going to need to do here is just turn off VATS and a few codes, then below is what you will need:

-Tuning software (like TunerCat)
-A chip programmer/burner (like the moates.net BURN2)
-A blank flash memory chip that will work with the BURN2 from moates (you'll need the 27SF512)
-A mem-cal adapter to install between the stock mem-cal/chip and the PCM (like the moates.net G4) - this adapter has a socket on it that will allow you to put that 27SF512 chip onto it you will custom program. *Without this adapter, you would need to desolder the stock chip/mem-cal so you could install the 27SF512 chip directly onto it in place of the factory 27C512 chip.

The factory 27C512 chip requires a UV lamp to erase and nothing moates.net sells can program those kinds of chips. You can buy the UV erasure lamp device and a different chip programmer to do this, but it will cost you more than just doing it the way I've explained.

You'll need stock programming to start with so you have something to custom tune. If you shoot me an email, I would be happy to supply you with a number of different stock tunes so you have a few to play with if you want.

But like phonedawgz said earlier, by the time you buy everything you need to do it yourself, you are going to end up spending about 3 times what it would cost to just have someone like me make you a custom tune for your swap.

-ryan
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larryfiero20
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Report this Post01-07-2014 02:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for larryfiero20Click Here to Email larryfiero20Send a Private Message to larryfiero20Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok that really makes sense! Thanks man, I may end up sending it to you for the initial tune then buy tunerCat and all that stuff afterwards to learn it myself. This car is being built to autocross so I'm going to be making alot of changes over the spring and summer. Eventually I'm going to a 6 speed, then rebuild the motor next winter.
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Report this Post01-07-2014 04:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
rebuilding the motor is a bad idea 100% of the time.. You are going to get years and years of hard abuse out of it in stock form if you keep oil in it (lots of extra oil to avoid drops in pressure while cornering).

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 01-07-2014).]

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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post01-07-2014 07:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:

rebuilding the motor is a bad idea 100% of the time..


...only if you don't know what you are doing. If you do the job properly and check everything and keep everything clean, you will not have a problem.

The problems people have with DIY rebuilds can usually be attributed to either dirty rebuild environments or the fact that not all clearances where checked and set properly.
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larryfiero20
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Report this Post01-07-2014 07:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for larryfiero20Click Here to Email larryfiero20Send a Private Message to larryfiero20Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I do have alot of experience building engines, I have built multiple small block fords as well as a few chevys, I have all the tools and facilities to build engines and access to a machine shop. I'm just focusing on dropping the duke (3rd time within a year) and get this in then do the suspension. And depending how I like it in stock form, I may leave it alone.
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Report this Post01-07-2014 08:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cmechmannClick Here to Email cmechmannSend a Private Message to cmechmannEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A while back i was discussing this area with TK. And some of the information I was reading from GMtuners. 1994-1996 PCMs were a little wierd.
1994 was a mutant ODB1.5 which used a memcal/Eprom. Very difficult to find a base rom.
The stock Eproms were very unreliable to reflash(the UV ones)reburn once or twice was about it. The "27sf" series replacement EEproms are very reliable. Works like an SD card, but need a programmer. So an eprom adapter such as the moates adapter is a must. It will drive you crazy trying to unsolder the stock Eprom.
I don't know if or how much is true but some mentioned that the 1995-1996 PCMs had issues with reflashing. Had to do with getting the early built in flash memory to reflash properly.
On Olds, Pontiac and Buick 3800 PCMs 1994 and earlier had removable memcals with an Eprom. After that they were changing to become ODBII compliant and some had board mounted flash memory instead of memcals.
There are base roms available for 1997 and later. However along with an editor, for the PCMs with flash memory, you are going to need a scanner with passthru capabilities or a programmer that reflashes through the ODBII port.
You need to search with your PCMs service number to be sure. Even if it is out of a 95 it may have an updated PCM.

A few sites on the subject
http://www.gmtuners.com/eprom/
http://westersgarage.eidnet.ca/obd1.html
http://www.tunercat.com/tnr_desc/do_tc.html
http://www.gmtuners.com/eprom/DIY.htm
http://www.gmforum.com/perf...-programming-248838/

[This message has been edited by cmechmann (edited 01-07-2014).]

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armos
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Report this Post01-08-2014 02:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for armosSend a Private Message to armosEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cmechmann:
The stock Eproms were very unreliable to reflash(the UV ones)reburn once or twice was about it.

I know many people report problems with the stock EPROMs, but I wonder if people just erase them for too long. I've never tried erasing the stock chip myself however, so maybe they really are bad.
The reason I wonder about this is because I sometimes see people advising that chips be erased for lengthy durations like an hour. There might be some chips that require this, but they shouldn't be erased that long unless it's actually necessary. The window needs to be clean, so that the exposure is even across all memory cells, and then they should only be erased for as long as needed. Over-exposure can ruin the cells.

I rotate through 5 SGS M2732A chips that were all made in 1988. I set the timer for about 10 minutes and they erase consistently in that time. Admittedly I've only cycled them about 5-10 times each, which isn't a big number at all, but none of them have failed yet.
Different chip manufacturers/models are different though, so I don't know what erase time was supposed to be required by the chips GM used.
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Report this Post01-08-2014 10:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Most people swap series2's nowadays, It might be something to consider as you can get into the motors for only slightly more money.
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larryfiero20
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Report this Post01-08-2014 11:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for larryfiero20Click Here to Email larryfiero20Send a Private Message to larryfiero20Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yeah I understand the series 2 thing but this is what I have. I will send the pcm off to sinister for the initial tune
I do have a question, I started labeling the wiring off of the pcm and I noticed that the wiring instructions for my pcm I got from I believe gmtuners, there was a spot for a transmission performance shift switch. But my pigtails on the pcm don't have the pin/wire. Can I add a pin in that pigtail and run that switch?
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Report this Post01-08-2014 03:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by larryfiero20:

I do have a question, I started labeling the wiring off of the pcm and I noticed that the wiring instructions for my pcm I got from I believe gmtuners, there was a spot for a transmission performance shift switch. But my pigtails on the pcm don't have the pin/wire. Can I add a pin in that pigtail and run that switch?


Yes, you can add the wire and switch. The Series 1 performance shift switch requires you to install a 348 ohm resistor between the toggle switch and the PCM. The other terminal of the toggle switch connects to ground. (So when you throw the switch to activate performance shift mode, the switch grounds the PCM terminal thru a 348 ohm resistor).

 
quote
Originally posted by larryfiero20:

I do have alot of experience building engines, I have built multiple small block fords as well as a few chevys, I have all the tools and facilities to build engines and access to a machine shop. I'm just focusing on dropping the duke (3rd time within a year) and get this in then do the suspension. And depending how I like it in stock form, I may leave it alone.


I think where a lot of guys run into problems trying to rebuild 3800 engines is they try to apply small block chevy rebuilding standards and clearances to the 3800 engine - and you can't do that. You need to get a GM service manual for the particular 3800 you are rebuilding and follow the factory clearances and tolerances to the letter. If you do not, you will likely have problems.
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cmechmann
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Report this Post01-08-2014 09:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cmechmannClick Here to Email cmechmannSend a Private Message to cmechmannEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I haven't had to have any series II bottom ends done. Most of the time anyone who had Series II issues just replaced everything. On Series One and earlier I have had a good number of conversations with machine shops. Rotating assembly clearances are much tighter than SBC and Ford. Years and block numbers are very important. Anything after 85 should have yield to torq head bolts. Anything that is not a 3.8 is going to have non reuseable connecting rod bolts. 3800 series uses on center bores. This changes the piston and rod positions. 92 can have old or newer style main caps, this being with or without reuseable bolts.
Another issue is to have large end of connecting rods machined if going to reusable bolts or more importantly changing bearings. If you are just inspecting and using the same bearings on the same crank you can use new yield to torq bolts and reassemble. With very strict torq specs. If you are fitting new rod(ARP) reusable, the rods have to be machined. If the crank is refinished and/or the bearings are changed, the rods have to be machined.
The (ARP) replacement type bolts puts different clamping force on big end of the rod causing out of roundness. They need to be machined with the new bolts. Changing the bearings and/or machining the crank also changes the end.
There were many 3800s with wiped out rod bearings after rebuild until the machine shops found out about this information.
I sat through a class and there was a 45 min video from GM explaining this and also about using ANY abrasives when cleaning up to replace a lower intake manifold gasket or anywhere debris could find it's way to the crankcase(back to razor scrapers and rags). Unless blocks were disassembled and cleaned very tiny abrasive particles found there way into the bearings. They were having a slew of engines wiping out bearings at dealers after replacing the problem intake gaskets. They sent engines to their labs and found with electron microscopes, particles of aluminum oxide. After which the video went into detail about the rods and bearings.
However with this information I know many machine shops that don't have any problem with 3.8/3800 engines. Kids don't try this at home.
I had visited an old machine shop friend of mine about 3 weeks ago for some valve keepers for an Ecotec I was working on. He had just finished an LS4 and wished it was a 3800. A lot less machineable.
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Report this Post01-08-2014 10:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cmechmannClick Here to Email cmechmannSend a Private Message to cmechmannEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As far as the other stuff. Iv'e been slowly putting together a Series 1 for my Fiero.
92 Park Avenue Ultra engine. 93 intake and charger. The OE stickers were still on the charger, MAF and throttle body(1993 numbers confirmed) but Eaton states it is a Gen 3. They are supposed to be 1994-1995?????
It is a EV "Gray Metal Works" block. The number coincides with the newer main caps, but has the older reusable bolt main caps. GM numbers on caps and they matched the block machine surfaces. Rough outer casting, later mains until Series II had smooth outer casting.
Of course yield to torq connecting rod bolts.
The flywheel number seems to be for that configuration only. That block, those rods, those mains SC early 1992.
Bottom end had never been apart before, with 74,000 miles and the bearings looked beautiful. The person I bought it from had the heads off. Inspected the piston tops and valve due to the old charger noise to make sure. Looked good there.
I'll be using a 16141470 PCM from another 1993 Park Avenue Ultra. 1992-1993, but were used in non ODB vehicles later. I have seen a couple of issues with 1994 and 1995 PCMs normally with the Ignition controls causing intermittent cam sensor codes. I have yet to see an issue with the 16141470 except for memcal errors. Those were resolved with updated memcals from GM. I'm going to EEprom any way. Using a BADA rom as my base to edit. I have a usb programmer and 2 extra 27sf256s. I have already flashed one several times and compared to the original read with no errors. I thank TK on his input on those issues. I won't be needing any other software or hardware. I made my own adapter. I won't be able to flash in car, but will be able to swap EEproms. Drive, edit, burn, swap, drive. Good enough for me. Editing VATS, mile constant and divider(to match tire sizes) before driving I think it will have ample balls for what I want and won't have to do any extreme editing. I may change fan temps, low closed loop temp and upshift speeds. But dought I will play with the fuel/timing tables.
I'm also using a 1995 4T60E 5WAW. It was cheap, recently rebuilt(with newer differencial gears) with close enough ratio. It has the reversed differencial gears but those are the same ones used in the SC cars that year. I had to modify the TCC wiring(add TCC power from brake switch). The PCM uses PWM TCC but expects a separate power to TCC from brake switch.
Brackets are done. Most of the hard parts of the exhaust are done. Shift bracket done. Wiring as far as I can go. Coolant fitting issues resolved. Still need to fabricate the fuel lines.
I should be buying the fresh needed new parts(plugs, wires, hoses, etc.) at tax time. Hope to have it together spring or early summer.
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