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3.3 88-96 Buick Century Toyota-built 6 suitability by 85 SE VIN 9
Started on: 12-24-2013 11:44 AM
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Last post by: Blacktree on 01-03-2014 04:17 AM
85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post12-24-2013 11:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A PepBoys (Skokie, IL) parts guy says there is a very good 3.3 liter 6 built by Toyota from the late eighties well into the nineties. He said it was very easy to work on except for the starter, with the alternator on top, easy access to plugs, etc. He said it was also very reliable except for the water pump which only lasted a year and a half or so, but was easy to change. His was in a Buick Century. He says he put over two hundred thousand on it, engine still ran fine, but body rusted through and broke. He donated and was told it sold for $350 at auction.

I think he was saying the Buick Century was closely related to the Chevy Citation, which I understand to be the starting point for the Fiero drive train. I'm considering a swap for my 85 SE, which has been sitting for two years due to brake issues. It runs (or at least did) but uses oil and is starting to smoke. Performance is not a big issue for me, economy and reliability are key. This sounds like a pretty good chance of finding something that will bolt up and program pretty easily, yes?

Searching for 3.3 didn't bring up anything, but I'm sure I've heard of 3.3's used for swaps. What's up?
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Report this Post12-24-2013 11:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for css9450Click Here to Email css9450Send a Private Message to css9450Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Its from the same 90-degree engine family as the 3800. Never heard it was made by Toyota. Call me skeptical.
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Report this Post12-24-2013 12:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero_Fan_88Click Here to Email Fiero_Fan_88Send a Private Message to Fiero_Fan_88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Buick LG7

A smaller 3.3 L 3300 was introduced in 1989 and produced through 1993. It is effectively a lower-deck version of the 3800, with a smaller 3.7 in (93.98 mm) bore and 3.16 in (80.26 mm) stroke for 3,340 cc (204 cu in).[3] Like the 3800, it used a cast iron block and heads, push rods, and hydraulic lifters. Unlike the 3800, however, it used a batch-fire injection system rather than sequential injection, as evidenced by the lack of a cam position sensor. It also did not have a balance shaft. Power output was 160 hp (119 kW) at 5,200 rpm and 185 lb·ft (251 N·m) at 2,000 rpm with a 5,500 rpm redline.
Applications:
1989-1993 Buick Century
1989-1993 Buick Skylark
1992-1993 Pontiac Grand Am
1992-1993 Oldsmobile Achieva
1989-1991 Oldsmobile Calais
1989-1993 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera


Do the 3800 and be done with it.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...130314-1-087739.html
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...030819-1-029238.html
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...020319-2-016088.html
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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post12-24-2013 12:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks guys. I figured something like that. So what kind of time and money are needed for a 3800 swap starting with a crate engine? I'm still in the position of having more money than time. Is there someone who does these, like Archie's?
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Report this Post12-24-2013 12:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero_Fan_88Click Here to Email Fiero_Fan_88Send a Private Message to Fiero_Fan_88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 85 SE VIN 9:

Thanks guys. I figured something like that. So what kind of time and money are needed for a 3800 swap starting with a crate engine? I'm still in the position of having more money than time. Is there someone who does these, like Archie's?


Start here http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/079560.html

There are a couple of places that will do a turn-key swap but, expect to pay a lot.
Prices will vary a lot but what you can and cant do yourself and quality.
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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post12-24-2013 04:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Jeeez! Spent forty-five minutes just looking at a couple of those threads. It's all very interesting, but I can't imagine having "four months" free time, let alone a garage.

[This message has been edited by 85 SE VIN 9 (edited 12-24-2013).]

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Report this Post12-24-2013 05:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My wife had a 93 Grand Am with the 3.3. We put over 300K miles on it, gave it to a friend who put a timing chain set on it and drove it for at least 3 more years before he moved away. Don"t know how much longer he drove it. At one time, I blew the radiator, overheated it enough to cook the spark plug wires off it, but it seemed to suffer no ill effects. That engine had the alternator up top and the starter on the bottom, same place as the Fiero.

If down time is an issue, an easier swap would be to get a 95 Chevy 3.4 V6. The only mod is having someone drill and tap the starter to the left side using Rodney Dickman's starter jig and upsizing to 17# injectors. Everything from your old engine bolts on. A mild horsepower gain of about 20 hp.
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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post12-24-2013 07:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks! Both of those are encouraging. The 3.4 even looks the same from the outside, correct?
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Report this Post12-25-2013 12:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It's got a couple of sensor ports in the block that the 2.8 doesn't have, but it's essentially the same block. Only the Fiero-initiated could tell it's not a stock Fiero block. If you ever wanted to upgrade to the 7730 ECM, it would make it much easier because the crankshaft sensor and knock sensor ports are already there.

The 93-95 Camaro/Firebird 3.4 are identical, except the reason I recommended the 95 engine is because it had the roller lifters as opposed to flat tappet lifters. If you're going to buy a reman engine, that would be the way to go.
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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post12-25-2013 08:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That sounds reasonable. What does the upgraded ECM do, more power and efficiency? More and better diagnostics? Would they take the 2.8 as a core?
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Report this Post12-25-2013 10:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Grooms and Jasper Rebuilders wouldn't take a 2.8 as a core. They said they don't rebuild them any more. That was about 6 years ago. Grooms will give a warranty on the 3.4 if you install it in a Fiero, but Jasper won't. This is due to Ed Parks's Fiero Factory work with installing the Grooms 3.4.

The 7730 ECM requires reworking the harness, but it does give faster updates of sensor information so you get better driveability. It also has more inputs like knock sensor, cam sensor, crankshaft sensor, and you can do away with the troublesome vacuum operated EGR system in favor of the ECM controlled digital EGR. Other functions like cooling fan are controlled by the ECM and there may be others that I don't know of. Some say that it gives a little more HP, but I don't know if it's ever been dyno'ed and proven. You do get improved performance just because the ECM reacts on input data about 10 times faster than the Fiero ECM.

You can get a good set of rebuilt 17# pintle style injectors or have your stock 15#er's rebuilt and resized for just over $100 at www.fuelinjectionconnection.com and you use the same gaskets as are used on the 2.8, unless you order a short block, then you'd have to buy a set of 3.4 head gaskets. Project34 or crazyd had a good writeup on the changeover. See it here: http://www.gafiero.org/tips2.shtml (Used with permission) It's a little outdated, but there are some updated comments in the right side bar that answer some of your concerns and questions.

[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 12-25-2013).]

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Report this Post12-26-2013 12:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bcampbellClick Here to Email bcampbellSend a Private Message to bcampbellEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:
The 93-95 Camaro/Firebird 3.4 are identical, except the reason I recommended the 95 engine is because it had the roller lifters as opposed to flat tappet lifters.


Since when? Iron head blocks never got roller lifters only the aluminum head blocks did.
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Report this Post12-26-2013 01:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for project34Send a Private Message to project34Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:
The 93-95 Camaro/Firebird 3.4 are identical, except the reason I recommended the 95 engine is because it had the roller lifters as opposed to flat tappet lifters. If you're going to buy a reman engine, that would be the way to go.

 
quote
Originally posted by bcampbell:
Since when? Iron head blocks never got roller lifters only the aluminum head blocks did.

bcampbell is correct, and more spedifically, the '93 through `95 "Camarobird" 3.4L V6 engines never came with aluminum heads, either. They all had iron heads and flat tappet lifters, including the `95 "Camarobird" 3.4L V6 engines.
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Report this Post12-26-2013 08:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sorry for the mistake, guys. I've been told on a number of occasions over the years that the '95 had roller lifters. I always thought it correct since GM has a habit of getting things right then cancelling production.
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Report this Post12-26-2013 11:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bcampbellClick Here to Email bcampbellSend a Private Message to bcampbellEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:

Sorry for the mistake, guys. I've been told on a number of occasions over the years that the '95 had roller lifters. I always thought it correct since GM has a habit of getting things right then cancelling production.


There were roller lifter blocks available in 94 and 95 but only in FWD vehicles with aluminum heads.
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Report this Post12-26-2013 04:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTClick Here to Email Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you are going to spend the money on a swap, whether you do it yourself or pay somebody, I would not do a swap for a 160 -170 hp engine. It just isn't worth it.

I swapped to a 4.9 which is 200 hp factory, and carb'd it. It is pretty powerful and torquy. It is cheaper than an Archie swap because you don't need the conversion plate or other stuff the sbc swap uses. It all depends on your pocket book. If you have the money for an Archie kit it is worth the money. If you don't, then a 3800 sc or a 4.9 will do the job nicely.

I have a 2.4 ecotec in my Buick and it goes really well, but, it dresses out at 170 hp stock. I wouldn't use it for that reason even though it would be a good engine in a swap.

You can use a 3.4 as well, but again, you are only getting a bump to 160 hp unless you do some engine work.

There are guys who've done different engines, for the fun of it, but, to pay for it for a good bang for the buck, the choices of 3800sc, 4.9 or sbc are the tried and true choices.

Arn
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Report this Post12-27-2013 03:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bcampbellClick Here to Email bcampbellSend a Private Message to bcampbellEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Another good engine choice is a 3500. Same power as an N/A 3800 but easier/cheaper to swap. Mine made 205 whp/250wtq with stock air cleaner/filter, 3500 front exhaust manifolds, LX5 throttle body, and everything else on the motor untouched.

A 3400 is a bit cheaper still and with minor mods would make the same power.

In terms of cost/ease of install it's a bit more involved than a 3.4 RWD swap and less involved than a 3800 swap. They're also readily available with low mileage due to them being available much longer than the iron head 3.4.

[This message has been edited by bcampbell (edited 12-27-2013).]

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Report this Post12-29-2013 01:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Arns85GT:

If you are going to spend the money on a swap, whether you do it yourself or pay somebody, I would not do a swap for a 160 -170 hp engine. It just isn't worth it.

Arn


I'm looking at it from the other direction: Given the 2.8 needs to be replaced sooner or later, might as well upgrade at least a little. The upgraded ECM sounds interesting as well. The 3.8 swaps seem mighty complicated to do, although in concept a slightly larger, more modern GM engine is attractive and a supercharger more so. Even so I'm not sure I would want a turnkey 3.8 or 4.9, etc., because there are so many issues that are essentially unique to each such build. The 3.4 is so similar future buyers don't really need to know, unless the computer is upgraded. In fact, my GT has so much more pep than the 2.8 SE I wonder if I might already have a 3.4 swap.

The engines (and drivetrains) being made today seem much more interesting for future gas prices and pollution regulations. I get compliments at gas stations all the time, but I have to be in one every day. The new Corvette gets better mileage with three times the horsepower. A Prius swap seems like it could be interesting and affordable soon or maybe already. The guy who did the hybrid Fiero used an S10 drivetrain and Prius batteries. A Fiero/Prius would likely be faster than the stock Fiero and more efficient than the Prius. Hybrid swaps should be easier because the components are more flexible about location and would get along better with the Fiero microtank.

I think a basic 3.4 swap would be the most appropriate for the SE next year or so.

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If you are going to upgrade (rewire for) a different ECM you might as well go 3800.
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Report this Post12-30-2013 12:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Like mentioned above, the 3300 is just a downsized 3800 (series 1). Toyota had no involvement with it. And since it's basically just a downsized 3800, that means installing it will be similar to installing the 3800. But you get a lower power engine.

As for swap candidates, I would personally suggest the 3800SC (series 2 or 3), or the 3400 / 3500 (3rd gen 60-degree V6).

While the 3.4 V6 is a really easy swap (so easy that it barely qualifies as a swap), it's not much of an upgrade over a 2.8 V6... not unless you mod it. The big advantage of the 3.4 over the 2.8 is that it responds better to mods, and is more durable. But a bone-stock 3400 will perform as well as a mildly modded 3.4 V6, with better fuel economy to boot.
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Report this Post12-31-2013 07:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for project34Send a Private Message to project34Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 85 SE VIN 9:
...for a 3800 swap....Is there someone who does these, like Archie's?

Yes.

Ryan Gick of Sinister Performance, LLC., is probably one of the most knowledgeable and most reputable installers and tuners of 3800 engines (and various other engines) in the country. His operation is located in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and you can check out his company's website at www.gmtuners.com

That website address also contains a link you can use to contact him.

 
quote
Originally posted by 85 SE VIN 9:
I'm still in the position of having more money than time.

Your having "more money than time" sounds like a far better position to be in than is the converse.

 
quote
Originally posted by 85 SE VIN 9:
...I can't imagine having....free time, let alone a garage.

Under those circumstances, if you're still interested in a 3800 swap of some sort, it doesn't make much sense to try doing that yourself. I also suggest not spending any more time reading more of the plethora of 3800 "build threads" you were sent (especially if Ryan Gick will be handling the swap):

 
quote
Originally posted by 85 SE VIN 9:
Jeeez! Spent forty-five minutes just looking at a couple of those threads.

Instead, I suggest focusing on a 3800 Series II Supercharged V6 (or any other reasonably popular Fiero engine swap, if you've changed your mind about a 3800), and farm out to Sinister Performance in Fort Wayne, Indiana, the swap of that engine into your Fiero.

If you don't have the time to drive to Fort Wayne, Indiana, from your location in Harwood Heights, Illinois (roughly 200 miles), why not ship your Fiero to Sinister Performance?

 
quote
Originally posted by 85 SE VIN 9:
I think a basic 3.4 swap would be the most appropriate for the SE next year or so.

Ryan Gick, if he handles your 3.4L engine swap, likely also would be the ideal expert to install and tune a -7730 ECM swap as well, which is said to promote enhanced driveability. However, someone closer to your location in Harwood Heights, Illinois --- who doesn't even specialize in engine swaps --- could be quite capable of handling a basic 3.4L engine swap, even without a -7730 ECM, because the 3.4L swap is almost a bolt-in proposition.

My own fairly basic 3.4L engine swap was completed on New Year's Eve of 2006 --- 7 years ago, almost to the hour --- and its 3.4L engine still starts and runs fine at -150F (somerhing which can be quite handy here for one's next workday, in January).

Good luck to you, 85 SE VIN 9, with whatever engine swap you end up obtaining for your Fiero.

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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post01-01-2014 07:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I like. Looking at the web site and engines. When people talk of a 3.4 swap they don't mean DOHC, correct? The plenum and so on wouldn't just bolt on with the DOHC would be my guess.

Right now I'm thoroughly disillusioned about having people work on my cars. I did get Koni's put on, but they inflated the tires to 45 psi for some reason.

They said I needed a new harmonic balancer, but it appears they overtightened the belts, ruining the recent-looking water pump, and the way they did the harmonic balancer itself looks really amateur. From what they said and what I heard from the waiting room, they didn't have a puller so they just pounded the old one off and the new one on. They also didn't use the new keyways. Oh, and they broke the alternator bracket. And forgot to plug the alternator in.

I'm not sure if I'm any better off or not, even if they had done it for free, which they most certainly did not. It looks like it will take at least a hundred dollars in parts and tools and a day of work to essentially do the job over.

This is the best place I could find to do the Koni's. They came well recommended, a listed installer for tirerack.com and with good reviews on Yelp.

Anyway, hope springs eternal. I'm going to look for engines and maybe go out there. You're right Fort Wayne is not out of reach. If I can't drive it there maybe I could rent a uhaul truck and trailer.

BTW, there are two cars here. The one with the Koni's and all, that's the GT, the one needing an engine is the SE.
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Report this Post01-01-2014 07:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 85 SE VIN 9:


Right now I'm thoroughly disillusioned about having people work on my cars.



You can trust Ryan. Problem is the waiting period... I have seen his swaps, They are 10 times better than my swap. Clean, professional, reliable, and durable. His pricing is reasonable for what you get. If he had been available, I would have sent my car to him. Good luck
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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post01-01-2014 09:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sounds great. From what I've heard when you do a swap you often end up having to do other things along the way, like cradle bushings and for that matter, the cradle itself. At that point the question comes up, should it be just another cradle or an '88 or aluminum. So what else should be anticipated? BTW, it happens to have 88 GT wheels. If one starts on upgrading to an '88 cradle, where does it end? If you do the cradle, do you end up having to go with '88 brakes, struts, and everything else?
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Report this Post01-01-2014 11:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You can stay with the stock undercarriage and just replace worn bushings and other items. I've ridden in a couple of 86 and 87's with 3800 NA's and 3800 SC's that had the stock cradle underneath. Upgrade some suspension elements and you still have a very capable vehicle. How a car handles isn't always a result of the vehicle, but in the operator's ability, so I suggest you only build it to your ability and intended use.
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Report this Post01-02-2014 12:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 85 SE VIN 9: If one starts on upgrading to an '88 cradle, where does it end? If you do the cradle, do you end up having to go with '88 brakes, struts, and everything else?

When you swap in the '88 engine cradle, the '88 rear suspension and brakes goes along with it. The '88 cradle is not compatible with the '84-87 suspension. And the '84-87 rear brakes aren't compatible with the '88 rear suspension. So it's basically all or nothing.

But you don't necessarily have to swap in an '88 cradle, unless you want to. However, if your existing cradle were rusted out and needed to be replaced, then swapping in the '88 cradle would be a nice upgrade.
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Report this Post01-02-2014 12:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bcampbell:

Another good engine choice is a 3500. Same power as an N/A 3800 but easier/cheaper to swap. Mine made 205 whp/250wtq with stock air cleaner/filter, 3500 front exhaust manifolds, LX5 throttle body, and everything else on the motor untouched.

A 3400 is a bit cheaper still and with minor mods would make the same power.

In terms of cost/ease of install it's a bit more involved than a 3.4 RWD swap and less involved than a 3800 swap. They're also readily available with low mileage due to them being available much longer than the iron head 3.4.


The full 3400/3500 swaps I've seen are a lot more involved than the 3800 swaps simply because, the 3800 swaps are at a point where small vendors are making parts to support those swaps where as every 3400/3500 swap I've seen requires the swapper to do a lot of fabrication. Add to that that the 3800 has a naturally higher power potential. If you're gonna do a full swap, 3800 > 3500 as things currently stand. The only part that I haven't seen "stocked" for a 3800 swap is a flywheel...simply because most 3800 swappers also swap in the automatic transmission that came with it.

For me, my 3.4 swap using the 3400 block makes as much power as a 3400 swap but involved no fabrication that delayed my swap. Once I got the engine rebuilt, it was installed in a few days rather than a few months. Time is money, if you ask me.
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Report this Post01-02-2014 01:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bcampbellClick Here to Email bcampbellSend a Private Message to bcampbellEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

The full 3400/3500 swaps I've seen are a lot more involved than the 3800 swaps simply because, the 3800 swaps are at a point where small vendors are making parts to support those swaps where as every 3400/3500 swap I've seen requires the swapper to do a lot of fabrication. Add to that that the 3800 has a naturally higher power potential. If you're gonna do a full swap, 3800 > 3500 as things currently stand. The only part that I haven't seen "stocked" for a 3800 swap is a flywheel...simply because most 3800 swappers also swap in the automatic transmission that came with it.

For me, my 3.4 swap using the 3400 block makes as much power as a 3400 swap but involved no fabrication that delayed my swap. Once I got the engine rebuilt, it was installed in a few days rather than a few months. Time is money, if you ask me.


That's where you're wrong. From the time of purchasing my 3500 to driving the car again WITH exhaust (built at a shop took a week itself) was 5 weeks. Most of that was waiting for parts to be ordered/delivered (I live in Canada). I had NO welding equipment when I tackled the swap so I had to have the exhaust y-pipe built for me ($200) and also the dog-bone mount ($100). EVERYTHING else was a bolt on, I just had to order the right parts. I also drove the car to the exhaust shop and again drove the car to the shop that built the dog-bone mount.

No one has really realized the power potential of the 3500 yet as aftermarket rods/pistons are not available off-the-shelf (rods appear to be the initial weak links at around the 450whp level). A guy on V6Z24 is probably getting pretty close though and he's running 10s in the 1/4 mile.
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Report this Post01-02-2014 03:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What was I wrong about? 2-3 days(heck 1 day is possible) is far less than 5 weeks.
As for rods, I believe the modified V8 rods are the way to go.
As for the 1/4 mile, weight is as much of a factor as HP/engine and any car can be modified to go 10's ... that's more about time and money...that's also why the 1/4 mile doesn't mean much to me despite my brother running 508racing.com and the X275 division at New England Dragway.

FYI, my 3.4 with Fiero intake made 187/249. When I put on a bigger intake (Trueleo), I lost flow velocity and my power went down. I'm hoping the DAWG mod I just added to that old intake will put me over 200rwhp...to each his own.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 01-02-2014).]

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Report this Post01-02-2014 04:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weaselbeakClick Here to Email weaselbeakSend a Private Message to weaselbeakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
"Another good engine choice is a 3500. Same power as an N/A 3800 but easier/cheaper to swap."

Curious as to why it's easier or cheaper?
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Report this Post01-02-2014 05:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The 3x00 can use a Fiero V6 flywheel / flexplate, whereas the 3800 requires a tranny swap (auto) or a custom flywheel (manual). The 3800 also requires a custom lower engine mount, whereas the 3x00 can use a Fiero V6 mount. But aside from that, I'm not sure. Both will require a custom dogbone mount. Both will require wiring mods. Both will require a custom exhaust. And so on.

That said, you could do it like Lou and put the Fiero top-end on a 3100 / 3400 block. Then it's like swapping in another 2.8, for the most part.
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Report this Post01-02-2014 07:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

The 3x00 can use a Fiero V6 flywheel / flexplate, whereas the 3800 requires a tranny swap (auto) or a custom flywheel (manual). The 3800 also requires a custom lower engine mount, whereas the 3x00 can use a Fiero V6 mount. But aside from that, I'm not sure. Both will require a custom dogbone mount. Both will require wiring mods. Both will require a custom exhaust. And so on.

That said, you could do it like Lou and put the Fiero top-end on a 3100 / 3400 block. Then it's like swapping in another 2.8, for the most part.

The 3X00/60 block requires a modification to use the front mount depending on what year (88 vs. pre88).

On paper it looks tougher, but the 3800 is well documented and a quick scan of the MALL section and you'll see most everything you need is a paypal transaction away...(harness, mounts, etc...) and besides why stop at a 3800NA when you can have a 3800SC for a few more shakes... When you add it up, you can get a 3800SC in there faster for about the same money/effort...if not less. That's all I'm saying.

Oh look! A flywheel!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fie...&hash=item1e850439a4

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 01-02-2014).]

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Report this Post01-02-2014 09:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bcampbellClick Here to Email bcampbellSend a Private Message to bcampbellEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

What was I wrong about? 2-3 days(heck 1 day is possible) is far less than 5 weeks.
As for rods, I believe the modified V8 rods are the way to go.
As for the 1/4 mile, weight is as much of a factor as HP/engine and any car can be modified to go 10's ... that's more about time and money...that's also why the 1/4 mile doesn't mean much to me despite my brother running 508racing.com and the X275 division at New England Dragway.

FYI, my 3.4 with Fiero intake made 187/249. When I put on a bigger intake (Trueleo), I lost flow velocity and my power went down. I'm hoping the DAWG mod I just added to that old intake will put me over 200rwhp...to each his own.



Yes modified V8 rods are probably the best option, which I'm looking at for my Firebird, but there still aren't any OTS options and then you need to figure out custom pistons.

If you can do a 2.8-3.4 swap in a weekend then you can also do a 3x00 swap in a weekend; it all comes down to having everything you need handy, which I didn't (as stated, I counted 5 weeks from purchasing the engine to having a fully completed swap). My Fiero wasn't running when I did the swap so I wasn't in too much of a rush.

Clearly you didn't rebuild/modify your 3400/3.4 and have it installed again in a day .

The mod to the 84-87 front mount takes literally 5 min including setting up the angle grinder. I went the simple direction with wiring so that only took a couple of hours. Part #s for rad hoses can be found readily so you don't need to spend time figuring that out.

If you absolutely need to drive the car you CAN do so without fabbing a dog-bone, however you shouldn't drive it hard if it comes to that.

Think about it this way. If you have the engine on a stand you can setup the belt routing and flywheel, heck even build a y-pipe if you are good at measuring, wire up the injector harness and setup other pigtail changes. Also make your fuel lines as required. Then come swap time all you have to do is mod the front mount, bolt on your clutch, trim the rad hoses as needed, and do the necessary wiring. If you buy a swap chip, which are available, then the tuning is basically done.

Obviously you could do that with a 3800 swap too... bottom line is there are less modifications needed and if you go with a 7730 wiring is quicker/easier than an OBDII swap.
Cheaper because there are less modifications needed and you can re-use more stock items. If you don't have access to a pull-it-yourself type junkyard, the 3x00 engines are generally cheaper than 3800s.
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Report this Post01-02-2014 09:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bcampbellClick Here to Email bcampbellSend a Private Message to bcampbellEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

bcampbell

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quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

The 3X00/60 block requires a modification to use the front mount depending on what year (88 vs. pre88).

On paper it looks tougher, but the 3800 is well documented and a quick scan of the MALL section and you'll see most everything you need is a paypal transaction away...(harness, mounts, etc...) and besides why stop at a 3800NA when you can have a 3800SC for a few more shakes... When you add it up, you can get a 3800SC in there faster for about the same money/effort...if not less. That's all I'm saying.

Oh look! A flywheel!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fie...&hash=item1e850439a4



Honestly I was pricing out what a 3800 swap would cost before I even discovered the 3500. I was discouraged because of how expensive it would have been. By fluke I found a 3500 for sale locally and decided to check it out. It fit my budget and I was able to get it installed quickly with my limited resources. I definitely would NOT have been able to do a 3800 swap N/A or otherwise on my budget then.

Edit: maybe I should just fab up a few brackets to low mount the alternator and use the factory dog-bone and then people don't have to fear needing to fab up anything.

I also recall one member using his stock Fiero exhaust manifolds/y-pipe on a 3400 so if you're in a super pinch then there's always that option as well instead of fabbing a new y-pipe right away.

[This message has been edited by bcampbell (edited 01-02-2014).]

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Report this Post01-03-2014 12:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bcampbell:
If you can do a 2.8-3.4 swap in a weekend then you can also do a 3x00 swap in a weekend; it all comes down to having everything you need handy, which I didn't (as stated, I counted 5 weeks from purchasing the engine to having a fully completed swap). My Fiero wasn't running when I did the swap so I wasn't in too much of a rush.

Clearly you didn't rebuild/modify your 3400/3.4 and have it installed again in a day .

I did clearly say "once I had the rebuilt engine".

 
quote
The mod to the 84-87 front mount takes literally 5 min including setting up the angle grinder.

Yes, I pointed this out in the reply to Blacktree since it is required for my swap as well. With the 88 cradle you have to do something else.

 
quote
I went the simple direction with wiring so that only took a couple of hours. Part #s for rad hoses can be found readily so you don't need to spend time figuring that out.

You have to mix and match 3400 parts to get a 3500 in there, I believe the fuel rail but again my point was about documentation...

 
quote
Cheaper because there are less modifications needed and you can re-use more stock items. If you don't have access to a pull-it-yourself type junkyard, the 3x00 engines are generally cheaper than 3800s.

I can buy a conversion harness pre-made right here, no need to also have to do a '7730 conversion: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/056895.html
mounts are in the mall too...so you are adding complexity because there is no standard 3500 '7730 tune (heck my 187/249 dyno was done with a Fiero ECM on a Mustang dyno) where as a 3800[SC] can use the OBD2 ECM that came with the motor in most cases...

 
quote
I also recall one member using his stock Fiero exhaust manifolds/y-pipe on a 3400 so if you're in a super pinch then there's always that option as well instead of fabbing a new y-pipe right away.

...EEK! and take away most of the power gains you swapped your motor for? Blasphemy! ;-)

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 01-03-2014).]

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Report this Post01-03-2014 12:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bcampbell:
maybe I should just fab up a few brackets to low mount the alternator and use the factory dog-bone and then people don't have to fear needing to fab up anything.

I see a money-making venture in your future!
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Report this Post01-03-2014 01:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bcampbellClick Here to Email bcampbellSend a Private Message to bcampbellEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:
You have to mix and match 3400 parts to get a 3500 in there, I believe the fuel rail but again my point was about documentation...


When I originally did the swap I used the 3500 rail/injectors to save having to buy another rail/injectors. I used an 01 Vette fuel filter which IIRC was around $40 as my FPR, which happens to put out about the same fuel pressure as a stock 3500. One thing to note about using the 3500 injectors is that they require different lag time settings in the ECM if you want it to idle smoothly. 3400 injectors do not require messing with the injector lag time table in the ECM.

Recently when I cammed the engine and upgraded the injectors I opted for a 3400 rail with 28# injectors mostly because I got a really good deal on the injectors which were flow matched and cleaned.

As for documentation, the info is all out there; I was able to find everything I needed and I also went a different direction than some others when it meant saving some cash or simplifying things.

 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:
I can buy a conversion harness pre-made right here, no need to also have to do a '7730 conversion: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/056895.html
mounts are in the mall too...so you are adding complexity because there is no standard 3500 '7730 tune (heck my 187/249 dyno was done with a Fiero ECM on a Mustang dyno) where as a 3800[SC] can use the OBD2 ECM that came with the motor in most cases...


So if you buy a conversion harness then you technically don't have to worry about wiring either... And yes there are a few different 3500 swap tunes out there for the '7730. It's much easier to find someone selling them on 60degreev6 or V6z24 though. A j-body swap chip will essentially work in a Fiero with perhaps some minor tweaking for VSS settings.

 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:
...EEK! and take away most of the power gains you swapped your motor for? Blasphemy! ;-)


I was merely stating that if you absolutely needed to drive the car to work, you could bolt up a Fiero exhaust until a proper exhaust could be completed. A 3500 should really have a 2.5" exhaust.

In my case I wanted an engine to replace the 2.8 which wasn't running, but needed something cost effective. The 3500 turned out to be a perfect fit for me since there weren't any worthwhile 2.8s available locally and a 3800 would have cost me quite a bit more in the end (and yes I really did cost everything out). If I were to do it again I'd probably do a few things differently, but it made for a reliable swap which I put 30,000 problem-free kms on. I only pulled it off the road to do some upgrades and to drive my other car. Unlike the stock 2.8 which constantly gave me problems, no doubt because of its age but also things like failing ignition components, I was never not able to drive the car with the swap. Never got stranded anywhere.

[This message has been edited by bcampbell (edited 01-03-2014).]

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Report this Post01-03-2014 04:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

The 3X00/60 block requires a modification to use the front mount depending on what year (88 vs. pre88).

Yes, I realize that... which is why I said "for the most part".
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