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Fiero 2.8 Alternator Rebuild by no2pencil
Started on: 12-22-2013 02:42 PM
Replies: 32 (1304 views)
Last post by: no2pencil on 02-06-2021 08:13 PM
no2pencil
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Report this Post12-22-2013 02:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for no2pencilSend a Private Message to no2pencilEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Not much to show yet, & slow progress, but here is my current winter side-project :

As received : 2 probably not working 2.8 Alternators


Once inside :




After about an hour of hand sanding :
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no2pencil
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Report this Post12-22-2013 02:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for no2pencilSend a Private Message to no2pencilEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I picked up some parts from the RockAuto closeout sale listed here : //www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/061818.html

The pickups were almost completely warn down.

I do have one question, on the windings, the inside is very rusty. Should I just sand this too, or should the entire windings be replaced?
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Report this Post12-22-2013 11:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TimpilotClick Here to visit Timpilot's HomePageSend a Private Message to TimpilotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would knock off the heaviest part of the rust with a wire brush (or wire wheel in a drill motor) and treat the rest with Krud Kutter The Must For Rust available at Lowe's or Home Depot. Krud Kutter is a rust REMOVER and INHIBITER.
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no2pencil
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Report this Post01-18-2014 03:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for no2pencilSend a Private Message to no2pencilEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
2 or so weeks ago I got some wire brushes. After scrubbing & sanding :



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Report this Post01-19-2014 10:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for James Bond 007Send a Private Message to James Bond 007Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Im sure you allready know, but your going to neeed a large paper clip or nail to hold the brushes in (theres a hold in the back of the case for this),when putting the case back together.
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jon m
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Report this Post01-19-2014 12:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jon mSend a Private Message to jon mEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
tooth picks are also good for holding back the brushes.

one thing to bear in mind - if you intend to paint the alternator make sure it still grounds with the car or you will see the charge light come on.

I found this out the other year and ended up using a ground strap from my top bolt of the alternator to the dog bone bolt (btw the alternator brackets had also been powder coated)

jon

[This message has been edited by jon m (edited 01-19-2014).]

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no2pencil
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Report this Post01-19-2014 10:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for no2pencilSend a Private Message to no2pencilEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What size bolt holds the pulley on? I don't have any sockets that are large enough.
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Report this Post01-19-2014 11:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RWDPLZClick Here to visit RWDPLZ's HomePageSend a Private Message to RWDPLZEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
24mm
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no2pencil
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Report this Post04-30-2014 09:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for no2pencilSend a Private Message to no2pencilEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well it's been incredibly ignored, but I finally got around to punching out the bearings. The shield stayed behind however.



I was also able to use a vise at the Baltimore Node hackerspace to get the 24mm bolt off. Still struggling to get it fully disassembled however.

[This message has been edited by no2pencil (edited 04-30-2014).]

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AL87
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Report this Post04-30-2014 01:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AL87Send a Private Message to AL87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
do you have a source for a higher output voltage regulator?
(I get confused, the voltage regulator controls amp output right?)

ive purchased both completely new and remanufactured stock alternators for my v6 fiero and they don't last anymore than a month or two before they "pop" and stop charging at 13.5-14 and start staying around 12 or so. its of because the alternators "duty cycle"
the alternators I've gotten cant hold upto the headlights and ac being on with a standard aftermarket radio setup (head unit and better speakers).

I've found some aftermarket high output alternators out there that would fit, but I'm sure most of us here are mechanically inclined, so that is why I asked.
I'd like to rebuild my working alternator, and just replace the voltage regulator to increase the power output.
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sardonyx247
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Report this Post05-01-2014 01:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageSend a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
To get higher amps you need to replace the windings, then you need better parts to support the higher amps.
(Mine is a 170 amp in a stock size case) and no I don't know anything about it execpt how to rebuild it. (pick-a-part score)


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Report this Post05-01-2014 08:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AL87Send a Private Message to AL87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

To get higher amps you need to replace the windings, then you need better parts to support the higher amps.
(Mine is a 170 amp in a stock size case) and no I don't know anything about it execpt how to rebuild it. (pick-a-part score)


that is what I figured, I was reading up on it some more and that is the conclusion I got with my findings.
too bad these parts aren't easy to get, and you have to buy a whole assembly. 100 bucks isn't bad for one, with a year warranty though..
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Report this Post05-01-2014 11:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Wasting time and money to fix dead 12SI Alternator.

You do all this and you still get same poor performance SI Alternator. CS series are better in most ways. CS130 generates more power for same engine load and uses 2 fans. (Old CS use weak bearing on back side. Current OE and Aftermarket makes better bearings.) See my Cave, Watt Story

OE 12SI Max Amps is 94a and many are lower, 66a or 78a peak amps.
Upping Current rating needs new Stator. Regulation and Diode Trio can be the same part. Better Diode affect only part life, not amp output.

Changing to CS130 is easy. See my Cave, Rabid-Wombat's CS-130 Conversion for 85-87 V6.
CS130 come w/ 105a rating from factory and aftermarket much higher.
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no2pencil
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Report this Post05-01-2014 12:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for no2pencilSend a Private Message to no2pencilEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

Wasting time and money to fix dead 12SI Alternator.


Ahhhhh perspective.

Most people think fixing a Fiero is a waste of time. So there's that.
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Report this Post05-01-2014 03:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for firebossSend a Private Message to firebossEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
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Report this Post05-01-2014 03:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AL87Send a Private Message to AL87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

Wasting time and money to fix dead 12SI Alternator.

You do all this and you still get same poor performance SI Alternator. CS series are better in most ways. CS130 generates more power for same engine load and uses 2 fans. (Old CS use weak bearing on back side. Current OE and Aftermarket makes better bearings.) See my Cave, Watt Story

OE 12SI Max Amps is 94a and many are lower, 66a or 78a peak amps.
Upping Current rating needs new Stator. Regulation and Diode Trio can be the same part. Better Diode affect only part life, not amp output.

Changing to CS130 is easy. See my Cave, Rabid-Wombat's CS-130 Conversion for 85-87 V6.
CS130 come w/ 105a rating from factory and aftermarket much higher.


is the fiero electrical system going to be okay with a full electrical load on just 11 more amps?

EDIT to add: ..."Yes, the voltage meter still jumps when turn signals are on, but not nearly as hard."

I don't think its a bad concept to swap the alternators over, in fact it looks awesome, considering the less volume of the swapped alt on the install onto the v6.
the electrical system seems stable with it. but still... my experience with the stock alt is as such, the needle just dips too much, then the alt pops, and after that, I have to run with no acc's just so when I do use the turn signals, the belt doesn't start squealing. and for some reason, it only squeals when theres an excess load put on the alt. this is a grat thread and I'm learning some very useful info!

[This message has been edited by AL87 (edited 05-01-2014).]

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sardonyx247
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Report this Post05-01-2014 06:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageSend a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

Wasting time and money to fix dead 12SI Alternator.

You do all this and you still get same poor performance SI Alternator. CS series are better in most ways. CS130 generates more power for same engine load and uses 2 fans. (Old CS use weak bearing on back side. Current OE and Aftermarket makes better bearings.) See my Cave, Watt Story

OE 12SI Max Amps is 94a and many are lower, 66a or 78a peak amps.
Upping Current rating needs new Stator. Regulation and Diode Trio can be the same part. Better Diode affect only part life, not amp output.

Changing to CS130 is easy. See my Cave, Rabid-Wombat's CS-130 Conversion for 85-87 V6.
CS130 come w/ 105a rating from factory and aftermarket much higher.


I had problems trying to swap to a CS, I think it fried them.
on another note, my biggest resaon for not going to a CS, is you can't push start it if the battery is tottaly dead(below iirc 9volts), they do not self excite. I have tested this on a bench.
but I am alittle jadded with my SI 170 amp.
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Report this Post05-01-2014 06:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for firebossSend a Private Message to firebossEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:


is you can't push start it if the battery is tottaly dead(below iirc 9volts), they do not self excite.


Did not know that thanxs
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Report this Post05-01-2014 06:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroJimmySend a Private Message to FieroJimmyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
CS alternators do that to prevent overloading themselves when people try to use them as a battery charger.
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Report this Post05-02-2014 06:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageSend a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroJimmy:

CS alternators do that to prevent overloading themselves when people try to use them as a battery charger.


Um, an alternator IS a battery charger.
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Report this Post05-03-2014 02:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
I had problems trying to swap to a CS, I think it fried them. {and} you can't push start it if the battery is tottaly dead...
Many have followed Wombat's directions here. Is a very common upgrade, not only for old GM but other brands of vehicles.
You got bad CS, Something is wrong with your car and/or can't follow Wombat's directions for whatever reason.

 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
Um, an alternator IS a battery charger.
No Alternator is design to charge a dead battery, below 11-10v. Low/Dead battery draws huge amps from the Alternator.
SI have a very long history problems, like blowing Diode(s), by doing as you say above. This is Why GM Made CS with low volt cutoff.

A normal starting Battery gets damage when you fast charge battery when under 10v. Alternator will fast charge if it survives. Just draw down under 11v (yes, eleven) will shorten battery life.
Even Optima deep cycles have problem, like short life, when you put too much charge amps, especially when battery is under 10v.
Lead Acid, Li-Ion and most other rechargeable batteries have small windows design to work. May make power til total dead but will affect longevity. Most Li-Ion, NiMH, NiCd chargers won't charge a dead cell/battery because battery can burst/explode. Many Car battery chargers are too dump and will try to charge a very low to dead battery and can cause battery busting/explosion.

 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
but I am alittle jadded with my SI 170 amp.
Advertise Amps, 170 105 etc, are Peak Amps. Peak Amps are just that. Is Maximum Power possible and most cars only see that on the highway. If you use "power pulley" then not even on highway in many cars. (This is covered in Watt Story...)

Same Peak Amps, 12SI makes Less amps vs CS130 at low to cruise RPM from engine.
12SI puts more engine load vs. CS130.
This is why "just 11 more amps" can and often does matter and is why Rodney and others says use power pulley then switch to CS.

All Alternators generate heat to make power. CS130 has second fan to cool electronics. Second fans work with plastic "Shield" inside of the alt to suck air thru heatsink on diode set and over the regulator. SI w/ one fan on outside is much less effective. Is why GM installed extra blower for V6 Fiero in 85-87 years.
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Report this Post05-03-2014 04:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageSend a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:
You got bad CS, Something is wrong with your car.

Very possible.


 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:
eek: No Alternator is design to charge a dead battery, below 11-10v. Low/Dead battery draws huge amps from the Alternator.
SI have a very long history problems, like blowing Diode(s), by doing as you say above. This is Why GM Made CS with low volt cutoff..


I ment in general. I know DEAD batteries you have to start out with very low amps to charge.

 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:
Advertise Amps, 170 105 etc, are Peak Amps. Peak Amps are just that. Is Maximum Power possible and most cars only see that on the highway. If you use "power pulley" then not even on highway in many cars. (This is covered in Watt Story...)

Same Peak Amps, 12SI makes Less amps vs CS130 at low to cruise RPM from engine.
12SI puts more engine load vs. CS130.
This is why "just 11 more amps" can and often does matter and is why Rodney and others says use power pulley then switch to CS.


This I know, thus why I wanted to switch to the CS in the first place, I had charging problems at idle, no power pully, I have alot of accesories and amps.
But with this 170 I have no problems at idle any more, it was made for car audio.

Don't get me wrong, the CS IS a better performing alternator, especialy at idle, amp for amp rating.
and engine load is negligible, at full draw the stock 94 amp only takes about 2 HP,

The BIG draw is the radiator fan, running it is about 18 or so amps, not so much of a big deal, to start it, it pulls around 80 amps, I have tested this with 3 different amp meters to be sure. I used to have my fan on with the key, or the A/C always on. (This is Vegas and it is damn hot here)
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Report this Post05-03-2014 11:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
The BIG draw is the radiator fan, running it is about 18 or so amps, not so much of a big deal, to start it, it pulls around 80 amps, I have tested this with 3 different amp meters to be sure. I used to have my fan on with the key, or the A/C always on. (This is Vegas and it is damn hot here)

Something is wrong w/ fan circuit.
Should draw ~11 amps when engine running. Motor is going south or motor getting low volt. see Electric Motors and Check G101, that's only ground for fan motor.
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Report this Post05-04-2014 11:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for no2pencilSend a Private Message to no2pencilEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Success!



Continuing sanding....
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Report this Post05-04-2014 03:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for no2pencilSend a Private Message to no2pencilEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

no2pencil

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I don't think there is much more that I can realistically sand. It's going to have to sit until I can find a way to sand blast it. Then it's ready to be painted!









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Report this Post05-04-2014 04:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for no2pencilSend a Private Message to no2pencilEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

no2pencil

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For less than $40 (plus shipping), this could have saved me some time :P
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Report this Post05-04-2014 05:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by no2pencil:
For less than $40 (plus shipping), this could have saved me some time :P

You have 12SI.
See http://store.alternatorpart...tors-parts-kits.aspx and http://store.alternatorparts.com/housings-2.aspx
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Report this Post05-31-2014 04:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for no2pencilSend a Private Message to no2pencilEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Since I can't find anyone with a sandblaster, or anywhere reasonably priced, to sandblast these intake parts myself, I bought some paint stripper today & went to it.

As it was received, quite sometime ago from mattwa (I think)




Yuck.


I had started to hand sand it some time ago, didn't get far & figured this is not a realistic way to do this.


Everything prepared.


I started off lazy. As a result, this one came out poorly. We can see here that I didn't bother to clean it. At all. I figured the chemicals would eat through the dirt.


Applied, & we wait.


Half assed preparation leads to half assed results.


So before starting I washed the 2nd one.


Wow, much better.


Not 100%, but it's time to clean up for the day.


More to come.

[This message has been edited by no2pencil (edited 05-31-2014).]

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Report this Post07-04-2014 03:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for no2pencilSend a Private Message to no2pencilEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
**Scrape Scrape Scrape**







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Report this Post12-24-2020 01:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for no2pencilSend a Private Message to no2pencilEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My apologies for not following up on this in forever. Back in 2017 I power coated the valve covers in wrinkle red :


















In November of 2020 I sandblasted the remaining paint off the intake, & also powder coated it wrinkle red.



Gaskets ordered & received, planning on getting all of this installed over the holiday break.
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post12-26-2020 08:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am not opposed to rebuilding an alternator but have taken several apart that have had blown field coils. If you examine the windings carefully you can sometimes see a broken wire. You should also be able to test with a VOM. Point is make sure the alternator field coil is good before you rebuild. This can save you some work.

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Report this Post01-23-2021 06:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for no2pencilSend a Private Message to no2pencilEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Valve covers prepped onto the block, still more cleanup to do.

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Report this Post02-06-2021 08:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for no2pencilSend a Private Message to no2pencilEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Got the valve cover-gaskets, still waiting on intake gaskets.

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