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LQ1 + F23 = Questions by Ravant
Started on: 12-06-2013 11:01 AM
Replies: 12 (469 views)
Last post by: Ravant on 12-06-2013 05:34 PM
Ravant
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Report this Post12-06-2013 11:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RavantSend a Private Message to RavantEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
After finding out about the blistering performance coming from the Project 818 at Factory Five, my goals for the Fiero have very suddenly changed. I want to make it a decent, naturally-aspirated daily driver with a stick. Settling on a 3.4 DOHC because of its relative ease of installation and lack of frame-cutting-and-welding when compared to the Ecotec I was originally planning for. That said, I don't have a 282 I can mate this to. So, I was looking at the F23. I can get one at a decent price, but I had a couple of questions that I didn't see answered after a fairly extensive (3-4 day) search among the forums here and across the 'net.

The only answers I found relating to the F23 were pointed at the 3800 or V8 swaps. That's not what's happening here. So, here are my 3 relatively simple questions:

1) What would be required to mate the F23 to an LQ1? (As in, which flywheel, which clutch, does it even work?)
2) The car's currently powered by an Iron Duke backed by the TH125. Do I need the axles/hubs/etc. from the F23's donor? Or a V6 Fiero? Or should what's there work already? (I have everything front of the firewall to do an auto->manual swap as if I was going with a 282, and know how to do the switch to the 282, but I am really liking the gearing on the F23. So that's why I'm starting this thread, to gather info.)
3) If I end up with an LQ1 from a '97 LuminaCarlo, what's the best way to disable the auto-trans controls in the ECU?

Edit: And before anyone tells me "Sell it, get another Fiero" in response to the auto->manual, I can't for a rather illogical, but simple reason: I'm emotionally attached to this one. It was my first car, I bought it outright with money I saved from the time I was 14 'til I was old enough to drive, I've been driving it off and on for the better part of a decade, and it's done nothing but treat me right no matter how hard the previous owners or I tried to break it. Only sitting in storage for 3 years has taken its toll on the engine, and I'm not looking to invest a lot of time or effort into an Iron Duke or a TH125. If I'm going to bring her back, I'm bringing her back with some improvements.

[This message has been edited by Ravant (edited 12-06-2013).]

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Report this Post12-06-2013 11:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Ravant:

After finding out about the blistering performance coming from the Project 818 at Factory Five, my goals for the Fiero have very suddenly changed. I want to make it a decent, naturally-aspirated daily driver with a stick. Settling on a 3.4 DOHC because of its relative ease of installation and lack of frame-cutting-and-welding when compared to the Ecotec I was originally planning for. That said, I don't have a 282 I can mate this to. So, I was looking at the F23. I can get one at a decent price, but I had a couple of questions that I didn't see answered after a fairly extensive (3-4 day) search among the forums here and across the 'net.

The only answers I found relating to the F23 were pointed at the 3800 or V8 swaps. That's not what's happening here. So, here are my 3 relatively simple questions:

1) What would be required to mate the F23 to an LQ1? (As in, which flywheel, which clutch, does it even work?)
2) The car's currently powered by an Iron Duke backed by the TH125. Do I need the axles/hubs/etc. from the F23's donor? Or a V6 Fiero? Or should what's there work already? (I have everything front of the firewall to do an auto->manual swap as if I was going with a 282, and know how to do the switch to the 282, but I am really liking the gearing on the F23. So that's why I'm starting this thread, to gather info.)
3) If I end up with an LQ1 from a '97 LuminaCarlo, what's the best way to disable the auto-trans controls in the ECU?


1.) You'll need all the cabling, mounting and hydraulic info from the other threads, such as this The Getrag F23 Tutorial - By Emc209i. I converted from a TH125c and am using a stock 88 neutrally balanced flywheel (same part# as any other manual 60*), a stock replacement Exedy clutch, which uses the correct pressure plate design. If you're staying stock, the 3.4DOHC is not really a clutch breaker. I have not run my car yet, and I am currently still using the stock 2.8 in my 88GT, with intent to install a 3500, there is no interference with the clutch in the bellhousing.

Flywheels all interchange, the 88 Fiero V6 flywheel is the same as the donor 00-02 Sunfire/Cavalier flywheel. The issue with the 3800 is using a machined flywheel and tolerances...

As far as clutches go, keep this in mind...

 
quote
Originally posted by Jncomutt:
In my personal experience...


2.) You'll need the whole axles from a V6 Fiero. The auto axles are of no use.

3.) Contact Darth Fiero/Sinister Performance and get the ECM reprogrammed to meet your requirements.

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 12-06-2013).]

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Report this Post12-06-2013 11:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Ravant:

After finding out about the blistering performance coming from the Project 818 at Factory Five, my goals for the Fiero have very suddenly changed. I want to make it a decent, naturally-aspirated daily driver with a stick. Settling on a 3.4 DOHC because of its relative ease of installation and lack of frame-cutting-and-welding when compared to the Ecotec I was originally planning for. That said, I don't have a 282 I can mate this to. So, I was looking at the F23. I can get one at a decent price, but I had a couple of questions that I didn't see answered after a fairly extensive (3-4 day) search among the forums here and across the 'net.

The only answers I found relating to the F23 were pointed at the 3800 or V8 swaps. That's not what's happening here. So, here are my 3 relatively simple questions:

1) What would be required to mate the F23 to an LQ1? (As in, which flywheel, which clutch, does it even work?)
2) The car's currently powered by an Iron Duke backed by the TH125. Do I need the axles/hubs/etc. from the F23's donor? Or a V6 Fiero? Or should what's there work already? (I have everything front of the firewall to do an auto->manual swap as if I was going with a 282, and know how to do the switch to the 282, but I am really liking the gearing on the F23. So that's why I'm starting this thread, to gather info.)
3) If I end up with an LQ1 from a '97 LuminaCarlo, what's the best way to disable the auto-trans controls in the ECU?

Edit: And before anyone tells me "Sell it, get another Fiero" in response to the auto->manual, I can't for a rather illogical, but simple reason: I'm emotionally attached to this one. It was my first car, I bought it outright with money I saved from the time I was 14 'til I was old enough to drive, I've been driving it off and on for the better part of a decade, and it's done nothing but treat me right no matter how hard the previous owners or I tried to break it. Only sitting in storage for 3 years has taken its toll on the engine, and I'm not looking to invest a lot of time or effort into an Iron Duke or a TH125. If I'm going to bring her back, I'm bringing her back with some improvements.



I've done auto to stick swaps... the most PITA part is the pedal box.

1. I'm not sure if the standard V6 flywheel works with the F23... I *think* so from what little I've read about it. I believe that the clutch is specific to the transmission, though.

2. Any Fiero manual transmission axles will work.

3. My advice would be to go with a 3500 (VVT or non) or a 3900. They'll make the same or more power than the LQ1, weigh less, and be just as easy to install. The OBD2 PCM's are easier to have someone modify to run a stock engine.

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Report this Post12-06-2013 11:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RavantSend a Private Message to RavantEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
First thanks for the quick, complete reply.

As far as the engine, stock or very close to it. Nothing beyond what it would require to fit the engine in its new home. (Intake, exhaust, might do a larger throttle body and adjust timing a little, but nothing beyond that.) Obviously, while it's out of the car, I'll be doing standard maintenance for ease of access, too. Nothing that would shred a stock clutch though.

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
3. My advice would be to go with a 3500 (VVT or non) or a 3900. They'll make the same or more power than the LQ1, weigh less, and be just as easy to install. The OBD2 PCM's are easier to have someone modify to run a stock engine.


Price is also kind of a big concern here. Locally, I can source an OBD-II-based LQ1 with moderate mileage, good compression, in running order, for under $450. The 3.5 and 3.9 still have the same issue of an aluminum head, iron block that we had to deal with on the 3100 and 3400's of yore. While, sure, the LQ1 has its own share of LIM gasket issues, from what I understand, it's easier to take care of when it does happen. Now, if I could source a 3.5 or 3.9 in a similar price range, and it goes in just as easily with matching mounts (minimal extra fabrication), I don't have an issue switching. But I also like the higher RPM capability of the LQ1. Just seems like it would be more fun in a daily.

Edit: In fact, locally, the LZ9's about double the LQ1, and the LZ4's about $200 more. The car does need other work, like brakes, and I'd like to do some interior/body/suspension work too, so anything I can save on the swap, the better.

[This message has been edited by Ravant (edited 12-06-2013).]

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Report this Post12-06-2013 12:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RavantSend a Private Message to RavantEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
(Sorry, double post.)

[This message has been edited by Ravant (edited 12-06-2013).]

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Report this Post12-06-2013 12:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

I've done auto to stick swaps... the most PITA part is the pedal box.

1. I'm not sure if the standard V6 flywheel works with the F23... I *think* so from what little I've read about it. I believe that the clutch is specific to the transmission, though.

2. Any Fiero manual transmission axles will work.

3. My advice would be to go with a 3500 (VVT or non) or a 3900. They'll make the same or more power than the LQ1, weigh less, and be just as easy to install. The OBD2 PCM's are easier to have someone modify to run a stock engine.


The pedal box... *shudder* Yes, yes it is. I had help from a friend who was much more maneuverable in a small space.

I am using the LX9 3500 as I am not going for an all out drag queen and for weird perceived lineage reasons. But I LLLOOOVVVEEE the sound of the TDC winding out... I have had the opportunity to drive one a couple of times and, honestly, it is a fun drive regardless of if it only puts out 200-210HP and isn't FASTâ„¢.
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Report this Post12-06-2013 12:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Ravant:

The 3.5 and 3.9 still have the same issue of an aluminum head, iron block that we had to deal with on the 3100 and 3400's of yore. While, sure, the LQ1 has its own share of LIM gasket issues, from what I understand, it's easier to take care of when it does happen. Now, if I could source a 3.5 or 3.9 in a similar price range, and it goes in just as easily with matching mounts (minimal extra fabrication), I don't have an issue switching. But I also like the higher RPM capability of the LQ1. Just seems like it would be more fun in a daily.

Edit: In fact, locally, the LZ9's about double the LQ1, and the LZ4's about $200 more. The car does need other work, like brakes, and I'd like to do some interior/body/suspension work too, so anything I can save on the swap, the better.



The VVT motors don't have the same LIM gaskets as the previous 60 degree motors... and the late production (2004+) 3400 and LX9 3500 haven't really had the issue either (updated gaskets). And with a valve train upgrade you can rev the crap out of the ol' pushrods too.
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Report this Post12-06-2013 12:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RavantSend a Private Message to RavantEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm not too terribly worried about the pedal box. Yeah, it's a bit of a pain, but I'm also swapping... well, I've got a full manual pedal assembly instead of trying to futz with altering the auto one. As far as the TDC's winding out, yeah, that's part of why I'm looking at it. I'm not looking for a fast car, per se, just fun. The 818's going to be my truly /fast/ car. 1800 pounds, 250 horsepower Subaru boxer... should be fun.

I guess, then, the question is, the 3500/3900, just as easy to install as the TDC? What about dealing with VVT/Displacement on Demand as well as the electronic throttle? I'm sure there's threads out there detailing it, but I'm a little 'search-burnt-out' as of late.

 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:


The VVT motors don't have the same LIM gaskets as the previous 60 degree motors... and the late production (2004+) 3400 and LX9 3500 haven't really had the issue either (updated gaskets). And with a valve train upgrade you can rev the crap out of the ol' pushrods too.

It's less the gaskets that I'm worried about and more the fact that different metals heat/cool at different rates. That puts extra strain on said gaskets. While, I don't think it's an issue in the 3900 since coolant doesn't run through them anymore on that motor, I've had both a 3100 and 3400 in the past, and both ended up with that wonderful milky substance floating atop the cylinders.

[This message has been edited by Ravant (edited 12-06-2013).]

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Report this Post12-06-2013 01:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Ravant:

I'm not too terribly worried about the pedal box. Yeah, it's a bit of a pain, but I'm also swapping... well, I've got a full manual pedal assembly instead of trying to futz with altering the auto one. As far as the TDC's winding out, yeah, that's part of why I'm looking at it. I'm not looking for a fast car, per se, just fun. The 818's going to be my truly /fast/ car. 1800 pounds, 250 horsepower Subaru boxer... should be fun.

I guess, then, the question is, the 3500/3900, just as easy to install as the TDC? What about dealing with VVT/Displacement on Demand as well as the electronic throttle? I'm sure there's threads out there detailing it, but I'm a little 'search-burnt-out' as of late.

It's less the gaskets that I'm worried about and more the fact that different metals heat/cool at different rates. That puts extra strain on said gaskets. While, I don't think it's an issue in the 3900 since coolant doesn't run through them anymore on that motor, I've had both a 3100 and 3400 in the past, and both ended up with that wonderful milky substance floating atop the cylinders.



The pedal box was one of the first things that went into the interior on the assembly line. Getting it out without taking the entire dash out is a big PITA.

DBW has been done before... Basically either replace the Fiero pedal with a DBW assembly or find one of the DBW sensors and stick it in the engine bay on the end of the current throttle cable. The rest is just wiring. VVT is just wiring. Whoever sets up the computer will handle the software configuration for you. You may want to start with the program from a Pontiac G6 GTP, as it is the only 3500 VVT/3900 calibration available with a manual transmission.

I assume you've noticed that the TDC has aluminum heads on an iron block as well...

As has been mentioned above, GM has improved those gaskets so that the engines no longer have those problems. Also, replacing the gaskets as a preventative is cake when the engine is out of the car.


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Report this Post12-06-2013 02:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I paid 300 for my first LX9 (3500 non VVT) shipped to my front door. did I mention it had 38K on the clock? the second one, I picked up for $275. they're cheaper then dirt, lighter then the TDC, have a larger aftermarket, and IMO are a much easier install. it's your car, do what you want, but I don't see the TDC as a better swap. it's a cool one, but it's too much of a PITA IMO.

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Report this Post12-06-2013 02:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Ravant:

It's less the gaskets that I'm worried about and more the fact that different metals heat/cool at different rates. That puts extra strain on said gaskets. While, I don't think it's an issue in the 3900 since coolant doesn't run through them anymore on that motor, I've had both a 3100 and 3400 in the past, and both ended up with that wonderful milky substance floating atop the cylinders.



Umm... you do know that the TDC has aluminum heads and an iron block, right? While I will not dispute the fact that the LIM issue is real, the issue was corrected with a gasket and assembly procedure update. The LIM problem was never an issue with the aluminum heads, it was an issue of an incorrectly followed torquing procedure and a poorly designed plastic/rubber gasket that deflected easily during assembly.

Aluminum heads on an iron block is not a real issue... it just isn't.

I own a 2003 Grand Am GT with the 3400 and 100k miles on the clock. I live in MN where it can go from -30*F in the winter to 100*F in the summer... If something is going to fail due to thermal expansion differences, it would have done it here. As it sits, I am still running Dex-cool and there is nothing floating in my coolant and there's no milkshake in the pan. I don't even have piston slap.

Looking forward to your build, if you go with the DOHC just make sure you put a new timing belt on it before you put it in and it will be good for another 60k. Unless you're daily driving it, that's going to be a long time.

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 12-06-2013).]

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Report this Post12-06-2013 02:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:

Aluminum heads on an iron block is not a real issue... it just isn't.


look at almost every GM truck built in the last +-10 years... and many GM cars going back to 1986(maybe even earlier)

------------------
we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...

Built not bought... Because bolt-ons don't.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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Report this Post12-06-2013 05:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RavantSend a Private Message to RavantEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Look, all I'm saying is, I've done both the 3100 and 3400 before, they've left me with a sour taste*. The TDC's aluminum heads on an iron block, yes, but a different gasket design. But I'm not really hard up for it. Like I said, if I can snag a 3500 or 3900 for as cheap, I'll go that direction. But as far as the swap goes, is it the same as the TDC? Or are there extra bits of fab work that need done above and beyond a couple of mounts here or there? (The whole reason I'm not going with the Ecotec is due to all the cutting/welding required and I'm trying to avoid that at all costs. My welder's dead as a doornail, and in the effort of getting this car back on the road sometime in 2014, I need a swap I can do without it.)

*Had good luck with one 3400, bad luck with the other. The bad luck was milky at only 50k miles (original engine.) Then good luck was a used engine that lasted until 75k when I went cheap on a wastegate for a turbocharger kit that failed closed instead of open during a drag run in a W-Body. The end result was the fastest 1/4 that car's ever seen in the 12's, but... not much of an engine left after the fact.)

[This message has been edited by Ravant (edited 12-06-2013).]

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