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Generation 1 Headlight question by newfiejeff
Started on: 12-04-2013 07:09 PM
Replies: 13 (182 views)
Last post by: fierofool on 12-06-2013 09:19 AM
newfiejeff
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Report this Post12-04-2013 07:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for newfiejeffClick Here to Email newfiejeffSend a Private Message to newfiejeffEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
1986 2M4 5 speed

Poking around tonight trying to see what I can do with my headlights system, gen 1. Previous owner done some wiring and I assume that the famous isolation relay gave out, so they modified it with yes a power window switch to make it go up and down. I don't have the funds as of yet to switch over to a gen 2 system, even got some information here on how to modify the wiring so I can get the existing system to work.
Anyways I thought that switch made the headlights go up and not down, but just found out that if the headlights are not all the way up they will go down with the switch.
The question when the headlights are up in the fully extended position there is a click in the motor that you can hear, if you manually turn the knob to lower you can hear the click then you can use the switch.
What is this click in the motor and what can I do so I can use the switch to put them up and down for now?
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NetCam
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Report this Post12-04-2013 07:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NetCamClick Here to visit NetCam's HomePageSend a Private Message to NetCamEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Without knowing what the PO did from a wiring perspective it would be hard to say how to fix it. Many have just put an interrupt switch on the power wire for when the motors go up and down on their own but won't stop at the end of their travel. The motor (when working properly) shuts off when it reaches the end of its travel and the torque causes the limit switch to trip, shutting off the motor. The sound the switch makes is a very tiny 'ping', and I haven't tried it, but I doubt you would hear it if moving the motors by hand. When the motors are working you can hear a clunk when they finish raising or lowering. I think I have a functioning Gen I isolation relay in my garage, but not sure if that will help if the PO has bastardized your wiring harness.

[This message has been edited by NetCam (edited 12-04-2013).]

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NetCam
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Report this Post12-04-2013 07:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NetCamClick Here to visit NetCam's HomePageSend a Private Message to NetCamEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here's a very short video of mine before I went to Gen II. If you listen carefully, you can actually hear the motors hit the end of travel - one at a time because they didn't open fully at exactly the same time.

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newfiejeff
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Report this Post12-04-2013 08:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for newfiejeffClick Here to Email newfiejeffSend a Private Message to newfiejeffEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well when I put the motors down and I leave the switch on the motors clunk...clunk...clunk when they are fully down

[This message has been edited by newfiejeff (edited 12-04-2013).]

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NetCam
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Report this Post12-04-2013 08:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NetCamClick Here to visit NetCam's HomePageSend a Private Message to NetCamEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Your gears are stripped and the motors need a rebuild. I did my passenger side just before I decided to go to Gen II.
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newfiejeff
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Report this Post12-04-2013 08:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for newfiejeffClick Here to Email newfiejeffSend a Private Message to newfiejeffEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
They go up and down smoothly, it is just when it hits its end of travel(fully down) it starts to clunk.
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NetCam
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Report this Post12-04-2013 09:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NetCamClick Here to visit NetCam's HomePageSend a Private Message to NetCamEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Something like this?

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newfiejeff
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Report this Post12-05-2013 05:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for newfiejeffClick Here to Email newfiejeffSend a Private Message to newfiejeffEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I will try to take a video and post over the next day or so. It seems like yours skips as it is going up and down but I could be wrong, mine goes up and down smoothly and when it reaches the end of it's travel it clunks and clunks if I leave the power on it. To me it seems right no different than anything else that would be at the end of its travel.
So when it gets to the end is it suppose to shut off even if power is left on? I am thinking that click that I hear when I manually turn it from a down position is the limit switch inside? So if it is the limit switch shouldn't it be able to start to move up again.
I am trying to understand how it works.
My thought was that when it got to it's final down switch it would trigger the limit switch to cut power and it would shut off, then when the lights are turned on again it would come up or my problem it's a switch that is hooked up?
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Bloozberry
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Report this Post12-05-2013 06:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You are right that once the headlight reaches the down position, the limit switch should turn power off to the motor and set it up so that it is ready to raise the pod for your next use. The trouble is that Netcam is also correct when he says your motor's gear is stripped. Mine used to do the same as yours. All it takes is one or two teeth on the plastic gear to round off. The pod will travel up and down smoothly but when it hits that bottom stop, it's always jarring the same two teeth on the plastic gear. When the motor starts slipping on those teeth, it can't build up the torque that is needed to automatically flip the reversing switch inside the housing and turn the power off.
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newfiejeff
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Report this Post12-05-2013 06:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for newfiejeffClick Here to Email newfiejeffSend a Private Message to newfiejeffEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Makes sense now, so I would have to tear it all down to see the teeth?
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Report this Post12-05-2013 04:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yeah... you have to remove the cages from the car, the motors from the cages, and finally drill out the small rivets that hold the motor housings together. Once you access to the insides of the motor gear boxes, replacing the gear is straight forward. Most people then use small bolts to attach the motor housings back together... that's what I did.
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newfiejeff
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Report this Post12-05-2013 04:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for newfiejeffClick Here to Email newfiejeffSend a Private Message to newfiejeffEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Also one of my headlights is always behind the other either going up or down
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NetCam
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Report this Post12-06-2013 12:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NetCamClick Here to visit NetCam's HomePageSend a Private Message to NetCamEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think that's a function of the headlight relays. Mine always did that to some degree, if you look at the first video I posted the passenger side is about 1/2 second or so behind the driver side. I think that's the least of your worries right now. Chances are your gears look something like the one on the left below. If you look closely you'll see only about 3 teeth are chewed up, and the green stuff is what's left of the bump stops. The new gear and bump stops I bought are on the right.



I spent pretty much all day today getting my front end back together. Tomorrow and Saturday will be my days to clean up the garage so I'll look for those relays for you and check on shipping costs. They're small and light so I don't imagine it will be too much.
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fierofool
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Report this Post12-06-2013 09:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The motors will be faster or slower, depending upon the health of their individual circuits and the motor itself. Sometimes a delay of one motor can indicate that the bump stops have deteriorated. With the bump stops missing, there's a little lag time for the internal drive fingers to move from one of the ribs shown in NetCam's pic, to another rib to begin the opposite direction travel.

I strongly recommend that you purchase the Dickman metal gears for your rebuild. I've been rebuilding Gen. 1 motors for a number of years and for the past 2 years, the plastic gears available have been of poor quality. Some have lasted for only a week or two.

There are a number of areas where a first time rebuilder can get into trouble.

1. Removing the drive arm from the motor shaft. The threads can be easily damaged. Loosen the nut slightly. Support the motor by holding the drive arm with a pair of pliers and gently tap on the nut. Once the drive arm has started to loosen, you can wiggle it up and down with the pliers to remove it.

2. When separating the motor, you'll find a spot of white latex sealer on the motor windings. Mark the winding with a magic marker and also mark the inside of the case half that the latex spot is housed in. Scratch an X into the case half to keep it from disappearing while cleaning out the motor. Getting the windings installed in the wrong direction will make it run backward. One light goes up and the other goes down.

3. When reassembling the motor halves, the rubber weather seal at the top of the motor will sometimes move up underneath the motor knob. Be sure that it's located in the case, otherwise the motor won't shut off when closing the headlights.

4. When removing or installing the limiter switch/brush set, be very careful that you don't snag the edges of the brushes on the commutator grooves. Due to age, the brushes will easily detach from the spring arms. If at all possible, open the spring arms so that the brushes don't touch the commutator as you remove or install the limiter switch. I use a set of snap ring pliers with a set of 90 degree tips to open up the spring arms.
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