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3800SC MAF interchange ? by Lou6t4gto
Started on: 12-01-2013 02:28 PM
Replies: 12 (974 views)
Last post by: Dennis LaGrua on 08-30-2014 02:59 PM
Lou6t4gto
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Report this Post12-01-2013 02:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou6t4gtoClick Here to Email Lou6t4gtoSend a Private Message to Lou6t4gtoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Are their any other cars SC or NA where the MAF can be "interchanged" in a 1998 3800SC ? They are close to $100 new, so if they can be had in the "Boneyard", I'd like to try that first. thanks
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darkhorizon
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Report this Post12-01-2013 03:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
only 97/98 style mafs work in 97/98s. All of them are the same regardless of na/sc.
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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post12-02-2013 06:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There should be ID numbers and letters printed into the 3800 MAF sensors. There were 2 common style MAF sensors used in 3800 Series 2 engines.

The 1st design was used from 1996-1998 and the ID is: AFH50M-04.

The 2nd design was used from 1999-2005 and the ID is: AFH50M-05.

SC and N/A engines used the same sensors. The only difference is design/year range as explained above.

-ryan

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OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

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Report this Post12-02-2013 11:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:

only 97/98 style mafs work in 97/98s. All of them are the same regardless of na/sc.


Aren't n/a a one bar and the s/c a two bar?

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86 SE Convertible 3800sc 4t65e HD.

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phonedawgz
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Report this Post12-03-2013 02:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
1 bar and 2 bar are types of MAP sensors, not MAF sensors. Yes a 1 bar MAP is for a NA engine and a 2 bar MAP is for forced induction.

MAP - Manifold Absolute Pressure - connects to the lower intake manifold either directly or by vacuum hose

MAF - Mass Air Flow - Must be placed in the intake air flow, either in the throttle body or in the snorkel to the throttle body

Some cars use either one or the other. The 3800 uses both to measure the air charge more accurately.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 12-03-2013).]

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aaronkoch
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Report this Post12-03-2013 11:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm running the '98 style on mine, anybody know the effective upper limit of measuring in CFM for the stock throttle body and MAF?

I think I remember reading somewhere that MAF's have an upper frequency that they report up to, and after that you need to get tricky with engine management..

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Build thread for my 88 + 3800NA swap

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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post12-03-2013 04:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by aaronkoch:

I'm running the '98 style on mine, anybody know the effective upper limit of measuring in CFM for the stock throttle body and MAF?

I think I remember reading somewhere that MAF's have an upper frequency that they report up to, and after that you need to get tricky with engine management..



The upper frequency limit is imposed by the PCM's OS. And all Series 2 PCM tunes I have looked at had a maximum MAF frequency reading limit of 11,500hz in the MAF calibration table. Now the MAF sensor may be able to report higher flow rates/frequencies than this, but these PCMs are only going to be able to read up to 11.5khz MAF input.

Does this mean if you mod an engine to flow more air than the stock MAF/PCM combo can read to you are screwed? No. All you need to do is run a different/bigger MAF to give yourself more flow headroom. You can use a MAF sensor element from a 99-up 3800 or from a newer Corvette/GenIV LS application and shove it into a larger diameter tube and make your own (larger) MAF. I've seen guys shove MAF elements into 5" diameter tubes to get the needed amount of flow headroom for their applications. Of course, whenever you do this you are going to lose low flow resolution, but that can be worked around in the tune.

-ryan

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OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

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djlamp14
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Report this Post12-03-2013 06:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for djlamp14Click Here to Email djlamp14Send a Private Message to djlamp14Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by aaronkoch:

I'm running the '98 style on mine, anybody know the effective upper limit of measuring in CFM for the stock throttle body and MAF?

I think I remember reading somewhere that MAF's have an upper frequency that they report up to, and after that you need to get tricky with engine management..



All OE MAF's that we use for 3800's have a ceiling of 11.5k(as long as you are using stock PCM equipment). If you still flow more air than that, like myself for example you must an AFC. Those allow you up to 255% added flow...but with the added ceiling, resolution between MAF cells decreases. I tuned for 20% extra headroom and still needed more. Blew out that headgasket lol

OP a 97/98 MAF should be cheap at a JY. If you get a 99+ MAF they are longer and more square. 97/98 MAFs are round.

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11.8@115mph 1/4 mile 1999 Regal GSX being demodded for swap into a 87 Fiero GT.
11 sec pass>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQT4X2eBlR8

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Report this Post12-03-2013 09:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Oooops got my p's and f's mixed

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86 SE Convertible 3800sc 4t65e HD.

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cmechmann
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Report this Post08-29-2014 11:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cmechmannClick Here to Email cmechmannSend a Private Message to cmechmannEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Going from a 1993 Series 1 SC to a 1998 Series II SC engine. 4T60E
I have no desire to rewire and relearn ODBII editing and would very much like to stick with the 1993 16141470 PCM. Already have the editing features I need and have 2 PCMs.
Is it possible to make the 93 MAF work in the 98 throttle body with a self made adapter plate to go from 2 to 3 mount. Or do I have to do the long editing to use the 98 MAF? Or it may be better to ask, how different are the frequentcey ranges. Last 2 digits on the MAFs are 1993 (03) and the 1998 (04). The 1993 PCM did not work well with a (02c) MAF.
I do not intend to run this set up other than stock(no races). The only things that I edited in the 1993 tables were VATS, road constant and fan temps. The 1993 engine ran fine with no codes. Had a bearing issue.(I won't inspect a 3800 bottom end again, unless it goes to a machine shop and that was with replacing con rod bolts, 70,000 mile engine) The replacement has just over 100,000 and looks very clean inside.

[This message has been edited by cmechmann (edited 08-29-2014).]

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post08-30-2014 10:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
One unexplored, seldom discussed, hose fit option would be the inline 3800SC series III MAF sensor used on the 06-07 Grand prix engines. I've tried to find the MAF table on this later inline Grand Prix unit but short of a series III PCM that I can look into; no one seems to know if the tables match the earlier 3800SC's with the integral MAF sensor.
If you wish to employ the larger LQ4 or early LS1 inline MAF as I run, the MAF tables must be imported into the program. If you do this, be prepared for some tuning- hours of it.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 08-30-2014).]

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phonedawgz
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Report this Post08-30-2014 02:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So why are there 8 MAF vs Output freq tables in the .XDF definition for the S1 SC 3800 $5B4 definition?

96 is the only year that the PCM will run the S2 SC with the 4T60E transmission.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 08-30-2014).]

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post08-30-2014 02:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

So why are there 8 MAF vs Output freq tables in the .XDF definition for the S1 SC 3800 $5B4 definition?



Never tried reprogramming the series 1 ECM's and its a mystery to me, why 8 different MAF tables would read in the program. The eepom chip based 3800 ECMs have a reputation of being hard to edit for fueling. If you are using Tunercat I would ask TC why this is so. In the past I have discovered a couple of errors in the Tunercat definition files and an associate reports several errors in the Cadillac 4.9L $NS3 file as well . When I have found them, to his credit TC has immediately corrected them .
For 3800SC series II/III tuning , HP Tuners is my PCM editor of choice and have found it to be very reliable. The HP editor always shows one MAF table in the program, and has additional tables to tweak the fueling. If you use another MAF, the unique table can be imported into the program,as I did with the LS1 table (with thanks to Darthfiero who supplied it) .

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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