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Clutch Problem by FieroGT1986
Started on: 11-09-2013 10:12 AM
Replies: 19 (640 views)
Last post by: fierofool on 11-20-2013 07:54 PM
FieroGT1986
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Report this Post11-09-2013 10:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroGT1986Send a Private Message to FieroGT1986Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I had my fiero out last weekend for one spin before I put it up for the winter. I came to a stop sign and all of the sudden could not shift into any gear. I couple pulled over helped me push the car and I jumped in while it was moving and was able to put the car in second gear and make it home. The car is origianl with only 46,000 miles. The pedal does go all the way to the floor. I do not see any fluid leaking and the clutch fluid level is nearly full. I also checked the transaxle level and that appears to be full as well unless I read the stick incorrectly. I am hoping it is the slave valve. I plan to wrestle with the car this spring. Does anyone have any links/videos/step by step for an idiot that could help me. The car is relatively new to me and I have yet to find someone I trust to work on it. Thank You
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Bloozberry
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Report this Post11-09-2013 12:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
First have a close look for leaks by peeling the rubber boot on the slave cylinder back off the cylinder itself. If it isn't dry, then that's the most likely source of the failure. If it is dry, then do the same and have a good look at the master cylinder by looking under the dash up where the pushrod from the clutch pedal enters the master cylinder. If it's also dry, then have a helper push you clutch pedal while you watch the slave cylinder in the engine compartment. More than once I've seen the slave cylinder mounts break which result in the slave just pushing away from the transmission rather than pushing on the clutch lever arm. Post back what you find.
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FieroGT1986
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Report this Post11-12-2013 09:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroGT1986Send a Private Message to FieroGT1986Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Checked the master cylinder looked fine. Under the dash looked dry. Slave valve though difficult to see seemed to be moving correctly. No signs of obvious leaks. A little more detail on my last drive may help. Came to a stop sign and was not able to put the car into any gear while the car was running. I shut the car off and was able to shift into gear and when I turned the car over and it started it would instantly kick it out of gear and into N...I did this several times. I can shift the car when it is not running. Curious...Can I do any harm to the car by filling up the Transaxle case to the top? Any other thoughts woud be appreciated...Thank You
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Patrick
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Report this Post11-12-2013 10:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroGT1986:

Curious...Can I do any harm to the car by filling up the Transaxle case to the top?


What the heck would you hope to accomplish by doing that??!!! Don't do it.

I suspect your clutch hydraulics have taken a big gulp of air.

When the clutch pedal is pushed to the floor, how far is the slave actually moving the end of the clutch fork lever? It needs to move just over an inch for the clutch to fully disengage.
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FieroGT1986
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Report this Post11-15-2013 09:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroGT1986Send a Private Message to FieroGT1986Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Okay I will take a look. Can anyone recommend the easiest way to check this without lifting the car? Thanks for all the help.
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Patrick
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Report this Post11-15-2013 09:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroGT1986:

Can anyone recommend the easiest way to check this without lifting the car?


Ummm.... you're checking to see how far the slave is moving. The slave is not under the car.
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Tyrfin
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Report this Post11-16-2013 07:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TyrfinClick Here to Email TyrfinSend a Private Message to TyrfinEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I had this happen and it turned out to have nothing to do with the clutch at all. The bracket that holds the end of the shift cable in place had become loose and was allowing the cable to flop around ridiculously, making it all but impossible to find any gear.
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FieroGT1986
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Report this Post11-16-2013 09:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroGT1986Send a Private Message to FieroGT1986Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I just took a look. From what I see the slave valve does not extend over an inch. Would this mean the clutch pedal itself is not going down far enough? The petal does hit the floor. Again I can shift the car when it is not running. If I start the car in gear it will kick it into N when it starts. When I start the car in N and attempt to put it into gear the car slightly moves forward. Any feedback would be great. Thank you
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n7vrz
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Report this Post11-16-2013 10:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for n7vrzClick Here to Email n7vrzSend a Private Message to n7vrzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Being able to shift the car with the engine not running tells us that the shift cables are good. Also that the problem is directly connected with the clutch not disengaging when you push the clutch pedal.
Take any of these or combinations of these and they could be your problem(s):
1. Slave cylinder failure (piston seal)
2. Air in clutch hydraulics (seals)
3. Throw out bearing failure
4. Pressure plate fingers broken
5. Clutch master cylinder failure (piston seal)
6. Bent clutch pedal to master cylinder rod
7. Bent clutch pedal
8. Loose/bent/broken cable holding brackets

[This message has been edited by n7vrz (edited 11-16-2013).]

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FieroGT1986
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Report this Post11-17-2013 10:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroGT1986Send a Private Message to FieroGT1986Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
?? Not sure what to make of this. I picked up clutch fluid as it needed about a tsp at best to fill line. Pumped the *hit out of the clutch and noticed I could shift the gears easier. I kept pumping the clutch and started the car. I was able to put the car into all gears. I went for a ride and noticed while not in use the shifting seemed to get a little difficult. I read somewhere that if you hold a magnet to your clutch pedal it should be replaced. Has anyone tried this? Appreciate any feedback...I am really at a loss now?? Thanks
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Gall757
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Report this Post11-17-2013 11:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
improvement after pumping the clutch tells you there is air in the system....probably not much, if you get an inch of travel at the slave cylinder, that should be enough to operate correctly. If the clutch pedal hits the floor you have a bent clutch pedal. It should be about an inch higher than the brake pedal at rest. Whether or not it is attracted to a magnet tells you if it's steel or not...but not if it is bent. here is what you should look for in the pedal assembly.

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Report this Post11-17-2013 11:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for imacflierClick Here to Email imacflierSend a Private Message to imacflierEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Generally speaking, if pumping the clutch improves the clutch release then you have air in the system.

I have not seen if the pedal at rest sits about an inch higher than the brake pedal.....if it does not then you are not getting full stroke into the master cylinder and have a mechanical problem under the dash or at the master cylinder. Lack of full stroke will cause your symptom.

You might peel back the rubber bellows on the slave cylinder and see if it is wet. If it is wet you need to replace the slave. In fact, I believe anyone who has problems with getting the clutch to release should ALWAYS buy Rodney's slave!

Re the magnet and the clutch pedal: if a magnet does NOT stick to the pedal arm, then you have the aluminum pedal. If it is not bent now, it well be bent eventually. It may be bent even if it is steel. If aluminum replace it.

Also check that loop on the clutch pedal pushrod (the banjo) is pointing up, not down.

Still, the most likely instant short term fix is simply correctly bleeding the system....INCLUDING bleeding the slave!

Good luck,
Larry

Edit: Gall beat me to it....although I do not agree that being able to put the pedal to the floor indicates a bent pedal.....

[This message has been edited by imacflier (edited 11-17-2013).]

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FieroGT1986
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Report this Post11-19-2013 08:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroGT1986Send a Private Message to FieroGT1986Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sorry but I am more than ignorant and appreciate the help. The pedal on the left is bent but looks new. The pedal on the right is steel but looks to be in the correct form...Am I right? I think I am getting a bit of air in the system through the Master Cylinder. I can see inside of the master by looking under the dash where the push rod connects to the pedal. Seems very simple to most but I am not one of the most. Are there small o rings around the circular shape thing I can see ever so slightly though the boot inside of the car under the dash at the end of the push rod? I beleive that is where I may be taking in some air...If only there was a pill I could take to be come GUMBIE for a couple of hours things would be so much easier...Thanks for all your help and feedback.
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fierofool
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Report this Post11-19-2013 11:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There is normally a rubber boot that the pushrod goes through. The boot has a lip that holds it onto the butt of the master cylinder. If the boot is missing, you can probably see a round cup shaped disk on the end of the pushrod. There should also be a snap ring inside the master cylinder bore. This keeps the pushrod from detaching from the master cylinder. If you don't find fluid leaking from that area, then the MC is probably good.

The fluid level in the transmission has nothing to do with the clutch hydraulic system. They don't use the same fluids and are independent of each other in that manner. The clutch system uses DOT 3 or 4 Brake Fluid and the transmission uses Synchromesh Manual Transmission Fluid.

If your GT is a 4-speed, then the slave seems to be more prone to leaking than the 5-speed version, but you can check either by peeling the pushrod boot off and looking for fluid inside. The 4-speed slave bracket is also prone to cracking and allow the slave to move, reducing the travel of the clutch release arm.

Here's the advise I've just given someone else in another Clutch Won't Release thread. It works if you have no leaks in your system.


My most successful method has been gravity bleeding. It's a one-man operation. The master cylinder must be higher than the slave. This also raises the bleeder end of the slave to allow air bubbles to flow up to the bleeder end. There's no pumping that breaks up the air bubbles and there's no need to try to push the pushrod into the slave.

Jack up the left front until the wheel comes off the ground. You want to leave the rear wheel on the ground. If you don't have a floor jack, park the vehicle at a 45 degree angle on a steep driveway or slope.
Remove the cap from the master cylinder reservoir. Using a lint-free paper towel, absorb all fluid and wipe out the black gunk in the bottom.
Now fill it completely to the top with brake fluid.
Open the bleeder on the slave and let the fluid flow. 13mm Box End wrench or Socket, only. No open end wrenches here.
Occasionally tap on the side of the slave with a heavy wrench or ratchet handle to break loose any air bubbles in the pushrod end of the slave.
As the fluid nears the bottom of the master reservoir, refill it completely to the top.
Repeat the fill up 3 times. This is enough fluid flowing through to take out all air bubbles and the fluid should be clear.
After the 3rd fill up, allow the fluid to reach the FULL mark and close the slave bleeder.
Replace the reservoir cap.

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pontiackid86
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Report this Post11-20-2013 12:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiackid86Click Here to Email pontiackid86Send a Private Message to pontiackid86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Your clutch needs bled.... my Mera had the same problem.. jack the back driver side up so the bleeder screw is the highest point of the system, get a helpwe ro pump the clutch and get all the air out of it.
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NiotaFiero
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Report this Post11-20-2013 10:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NiotaFieroClick Here to Email NiotaFieroSend a Private Message to NiotaFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pontiackid86:

Your clutch needs bled.... my Mera had the same problem.. jack the back driver side up so the bleeder screw is the highest point of the system, get a helpwe ro pump the clutch and get all the air out of it.

Never heard of doing it this way. You need to do as "fierofool" said in the previous post.
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pontiackid86
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Report this Post11-20-2013 11:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiackid86Click Here to Email pontiackid86Send a Private Message to pontiackid86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by NiotaFiero:

Never heard of doing it this way. You need to do as "fierofool" said in the previous post.


works either way, I was taught the way I explained...

Either way air in a fluid system always travel's up

[This message has been edited by pontiackid86 (edited 11-20-2013).]

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fierofool
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Report this Post11-20-2013 01:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by pontiackid86:


works either way, I was taught the way I explained...

Either way air in a fluid system always travel's up



Generally this is true, but the clutch fluid line drops down to the underbody of the car. The lowest point. Air at the master cylinder end won't travel downward then back up to the slave unless the fluid moves very quickly. The clutch fluid will carry air with it when it moves, whether up or down. Having the slave higher and opening the bleeder will cause the fluid and air to flow back to the master cylinder. If you're going to use the pump and bleed method, then there's no need to jack up either end of the car. You move the air simply by force of the fluid movement. This does increase the possibility that the air bubbles will be broken into smaller bubbles and some will remain, only to come back together, later. Under pressure, you can homogenize the air into the brake fluid.

With the car sitting level, any air bubbles trapped in the slave cylinder, toward the pushrod end, generally won't be evacuated. The reason is that the fluid inlet is directly in line with the bleeder valve. Fluid simply passes straight through for the most part. That's the reason for jacking up the drivers side of the car. It raises the bleeder end higher than the pushrod end. That's also the reason for tapping on the side of the slave. This dislodges air bubbles and causes them to move upward toward the bleeder, to be carried out.

There is no need to push the pushrod into the slave. Doing so can be difficult if you have all heat shields in place. Cables could be in the way and the air intake hose may need to be removed also.

There are probably as many methods of bleeding the clutch system as there are people who're having clutch hydraulic problems. What I outlined has always worked for me, and is the best way I've found that doesn't require a second person. Even if a helper is available, I prefer the gravity bleed method over the pump and hold method, simply because it doesn't break up the air bubbles.

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FieroGT1986
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Report this Post11-20-2013 07:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroGT1986Send a Private Message to FieroGT1986Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Okay sounds good to me...I only had one other question...How can I stop or find out where the air is entering the system? Thanks for your help!!
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fierofool
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Report this Post11-20-2013 07:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you find fluid at the pushrod end of either the master cylinder or the slave cylinder, that's where you're getting air. Inspect those areas, tell us what you find and we'll help you from that point. If there's no fluid present in those areas, then use one of the bleeding methods you feel comfortable with and let's see if your clutch works.
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