Pennock's Fiero Forum
  Technical Discussion & Questions
  Best engine swap for what I'm looking for.

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version


next newest topic | next oldest topic
Best engine swap for what I'm looking for. by dhen
Started on: 11-07-2013 09:55 PM
Replies: 13 (1403 views)
Last post by: Sonny Burnett 21 on 11-12-2013 07:42 AM
dhen
Member
Posts: 50
From:
Registered: Nov 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-07-2013 09:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dhenClick Here to Email dhenSend a Private Message to dhenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hi everyone,

This is my first post. I posted this somewhere else, too. I'm just trying to get as much info as possible. I hope that was OK.

Anyway, everything seems on track for me to pick up my first Fiero in a week. I'm pretty excited about it.

Anyways, it's an automatic 85 with the 2.5 engine. I want a manual transmission and more power. I've been reading as much as I can about swap options and this is what I came up with:

transmission: F23 from a 00-02 Cavalier. I found a good write-up about how to do this on this forum.

Here are the pros and cons of engines I've considered. I'm looking for something with low end grunt that would get me into the low 12s if possible. I have a MIG welder and have designed engine mounts, etc. before.

1) L67 supercharged

Pro: easy to modify, rock-solid reliability. Good documentation for the swap.
cons: not many. It's hard to find a low mileage one, though

2) L67 turbo

pro: see above. Turbo can also produce more boost = higher horsepower. I have L36 Camaro heads and intake already.
cons: I'd be designing a turbo system from scratch. This might be fun, though. Turbos take longer to spool up than superchargers and I have a turbo car already.

3) Northstar

pro: good numbers out of the box and it's aluminum.
cons: has a bad reputation for reliability. I haven't been able to find much info on how to do this swap, although it's been done. West Coast Fieros says on their webpage that this is a difficult swap. Very little aftermarket.

4) LS4.

pro: This would be great. An aluminum LS engine. Lots of cheap aftermarket goodies.
cons: Unless I missed something I would be designing my own system to get the transmission mounted up. I've never done that before. Is there a kit?

Am I missing something here? I'm leaning towards option 1.

Anyways, if there is a book or something that walks you through this, that would be great. I've been able to find information but not in one place.

Thanks
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
NetCam
Member
Posts: 1490
From: Milton, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Mar 2012


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-07-2013 10:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NetCamClick Here to visit NetCam's HomePageSend a Private Message to NetCamEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hard to go wrong with the 3800sc and F23. It's a very common swap and there's lots of support on the forum here.
IP: Logged
Neils88
Member
Posts: 3987
From: Orleans, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Aug 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 56
Rate this member

Report this Post11-07-2013 10:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Neils88Click Here to Email Neils88Send a Private Message to Neils88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Avoid the Northstar...nothing against it, but it's a tough swap for the power. LS4 is great, but it is expensive and a lot of custom fabrication is required. For simplicity, go with the 3800sc...you can always pull the supercharger and go turbo later. If you want an easy V8 swap...can't beat the 4.9L Caddy...but that won't get you 12's without adding a good turbo
IP: Logged
Custom2M4
Member
Posts: 4414
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada
Registered: Sep 2004


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 114
Rate this member

Report this Post11-08-2013 09:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Custom2M4Click Here to Email Custom2M4Send a Private Message to Custom2M4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
L67 if you want easy, north star if you want a challenge. But the north star will cost you more money, specifically with the computer n wiring.

------------------

IP: Logged
Raydar
Member
Posts: 38534
From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country.
Registered: Oct 1999


Feedback score:    (11)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 451
Rate this member

Report this Post11-08-2013 10:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
L67 is probably the best bang for the buck. (This coming from a 4.9 owner.)
Since your car is already automatic, I would be tempted to keep the 4T65E tranny that comes with the L67.
(I love to shift for myself. Even went to the trouble to swap a manual tranny into my 4.9 car. But I'd still try the automatic that comes with the 3800.)
The F23 is becoming popular, but I don't know enough about it to talk intelligently about it. I'll leave that to the others.

------------------
Raydar
88 Formula IMSA Fastback. 4.9, NVG T550

Praise the Lowered!

IP: Logged
dhen
Member
Posts: 50
From:
Registered: Nov 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-08-2013 11:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dhenClick Here to Email dhenSend a Private Message to dhenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks. I think it's settled that I'll go l67 supercharged. It's more straightforward. I just wanted to do my research before I committed to something.

This is probably a loaded question, but where do you guys get your engines? I've read that Morad is good, but they're expensive. Junkyards are cheaper, but I also realize that sometimes getting cheap things costs more when you have to un**** it later.

What's your experience?
IP: Logged
Khw
Member
Posts: 11134
From: South Weber, UT. U.S.A.
Registered: Jun 2008


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 134
Rate this member

Report this Post11-08-2013 11:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KhwClick Here to Email KhwSend a Private Message to KhwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just a heads up since you don't have your location listed. If you're in California nix the stick idea with the 3800SC. You have to get special registrations to do that and they only give out like 500 of those a year. They are usually gone rather quickly and not very cheap to get. In Califoria, without one of those special registrations you can only swap in engines newere than your cars model year and only in configurations they were offered in when sold new in a vehicle. Since the 3800SC was not mated to a stick in any vehicle it was sold in, you can't use a stick with it (unless you get lucky and spend the money for one of those special registrations). If you don't live in California, disregard this but check your local emission laws if you have emissions where you live. I don't know if any other states have the same type of restriction but it wouldn't suprise me if some do.
IP: Logged
dhen
Member
Posts: 50
From:
Registered: Nov 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-09-2013 12:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dhenClick Here to Email dhenSend a Private Message to dhenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the info, but I'm in San Antonio, TX. No worries there.

I really don't see how transmission choice would affect air quality, but that's bureaucracy for you.
IP: Logged
Neils88
Member
Posts: 3987
From: Orleans, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Aug 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 56
Rate this member

Report this Post11-09-2013 12:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Neils88Click Here to Email Neils88Send a Private Message to Neils88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dhen:

Thanks. I think it's settled that I'll go l67 supercharged. It's more straightforward. I just wanted to do my research before I committed to something.

This is probably a loaded question, but where do you guys get your engines? I've read that Morad is good, but they're expensive. Junkyards are cheaper, but I also realize that sometimes getting cheap things costs more when you have to un**** it later.

What's your experience?


Hardest part is making the commitment to a particular engine. I'm excited to be doing a 4.9L...but I think you'll love the power and options available by doing the 3800sc. You'll appreciate not having to deal with an overly complex swap to start with.

Junkyards are good...but make sure you get everything you need...getting a used running car may be a better option if you can find one with the engine you are looking for at a good price. Don't forget to get the engine, accessories and most importantly, the wiring harness with the computer! If you buy a complete running car, then you can keep picking at it until you're done, then part out the rest...hopefully make some of the money back.
IP: Logged
dobey
Member
Posts: 11572
From:
Registered: Sep 2001


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 371
User Banned

Report this Post11-09-2013 11:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dhen:
Thanks for the info, but I'm in San Antonio, TX. No worries there.

I really don't see how transmission choice would affect air quality, but that's bureaucracy for you.


Because an engine that came with a manual has a different program than one that came with an automatic. If you simply swap the trans and use the auto program, it could result in worse pollution when not reprogrammed correctly to deal with the change. Of course, without reprogramming, you'd be lucky to even get it running remotely well at all.

It's easier for for them to just say you can't do it, than deal with all the checking to make sure it's done properly. Much easier/cheaper to train people to say "no" than to check for proper reprogramming and such.

IP: Logged
ericjon262
Member
Posts: 2674
From: everywhere.
Registered: Jan 2010


Feedback score:    (10)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 63
Rate this member

Report this Post11-09-2013 08:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Because an engine that came with a manual has a different program than one that came with an automatic. If you simply swap the trans and use the auto program, it could result in worse pollution when not reprogrammed correctly to deal with the change. Of course, without reprogramming, you'd be lucky to even get it running remotely well at all.

It's easier for for them to just say you can't do it, than deal with all the checking to make sure it's done properly. Much easier/cheaper to train people to say "no" than to check for proper reprogramming and such.


I don't understand why the programming even needs to be checked. if it blow's clean, it should roll, no questions asked.

------------------
we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...

Built not bought... Because bolt-ons don't.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
Will
Member
Posts: 13446
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 234
Rate this member

Report this Post11-11-2013 01:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The emissions station equipment doesn't come close to the same degree of precision as the original powertrain certification test.
Outside of test conditions, the automatic is predictable, while the manual isn't.
If they can't control it, they forbid it... that's unfortunately the way people in power think. Nevermind the fact that the number of people each year who want to do these modifications is so tiny relative to the total auto market as to be completely negligible.
IP: Logged
Rickady88GT
Member
Posts: 9527
From: Central CA
Registered: Dec 2002


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 196
Rate this member

Report this Post11-12-2013 12:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:


I don't understand why the programming even needs to be checked. if it blow's clean, it should roll, no questions asked.



I was forced to reprogram my ECM,BCM,BrakeCM, Anti-lockCM, and Radio to pass the engine swap certification in CA (because I swapped all of these components into the Fiero and they all needed to have the same VIN number encoded into the systems so they would communicate with each other properly) . The drivetrain was from out of State "Federal car" and the emissions tolerance tables in CA cars are stricter. Basically the SES light turns on sooner than "federal cars" when the cat starts to burn out (post cat readings). When I was running the Fed program I had no codes but after the reflash I had an SES light for a dead cat. This cat is fine in Fed cars but CA standards it can not pass. The kicker is that what comes out of the tail pipe is still clean with this "dead cat" but the emissions people are happy that I spent $200 at the GM dealer to reflash the system to CA standards.

IP: Logged
Sonny Burnett 21
Member
Posts: 59
From: Detroit MI US
Registered: Jun 2013


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-12-2013 07:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Sonny Burnett 21Click Here to Email Sonny Burnett 21Send a Private Message to Sonny Burnett 21Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Congratulations on your fiero purchase. And welcome to pff. I'm looking into doing the same thing with my fiero. I'm doing a 3.8 na swap to mines I'm looking for a 3.8 mount kit for my swap. Wcf have a lot of information on swaps but to me some of there hardwere is overpriced. But if u need some info this is the place to be for the fiero. Goodluck.
IP: Logged

next newest topic | next oldest topic

All times are ET (US)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Back To Main Page

Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery | Ogre's Cave
Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock