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Emergency/Parking brake - Front of Fiero? by nyjetfan
Started on: 10-22-2013 10:33 AM
Replies: 20 (971 views)
Last post by: nyjetfan on 10-24-2013 03:15 PM
nyjetfan
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Report this Post10-22-2013 10:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for nyjetfanSend a Private Message to nyjetfanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hi All - I'm helping a buddy with a kit car he has, and it is a bit of an interesting one. The base was a 1987 Fiero, and they removed the rear end and inserted the front clip from a 1987 Buick Le Sabre (tubed chassis some, entire subframe including the 4T60 Transmission and the 3.8L V6).

Anyway, the car runs great but I'm trying to find a way to get an emergency/parking brake on it. As the new rear end is now a front end of a Buick, I was wondering if anyone is aware of any options for replacing the calipers in either the front (original fiero) or the rear of the car which will enable me to connect a brake cable and work up a parking brake type solution.

Please advise if you are aware of any options other than a linelock, as they aren't acceptable to pass state inspection.

Thanks!
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Report this Post10-22-2013 10:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by nyjetfan:

Hi All - I'm helping a buddy with a kit car he has, and it is a bit of an interesting one. The base was a 1987 Fiero, and they removed the rear end and inserted the front clip from a 1987 Buick Le Sabre (tubed chassis some, entire subframe including the 4T60 Transmission and the 3.8L V6).

Anyway, the car runs great but I'm trying to find a way to get an emergency/parking brake on it. As the new rear end is now a front end of a Buick, I was wondering if anyone is aware of any options for replacing the calipers in either the front (original fiero) or the rear of the car which will enable me to connect a brake cable and work up a parking brake type solution.

Please advise if you are aware of any options other than a linelock, as they aren't acceptable to pass state inspection.

Thanks!


depends is your state inspection allow for front e brakes, never heard of it myself, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist ether. Never had any idea they had frt e brakes on anything as far cars go but maybe someone will pipe up with some idea, remember e brakes have to be mechanical and not hydraulically driven to pass in any state that I know of. Good luck, it does sound interesting.

Steve

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nyjetfan
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Report this Post10-22-2013 11:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for nyjetfanSend a Private Message to nyjetfanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:


depends is your state inspection allow for front e brakes, never heard of it myself, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist ether. Never had any idea they had frt e brakes on anything as far cars go but maybe someone will pipe up with some idea, remember e brakes have to be mechanical and not hydraulically driven to pass in any state that I know of. Good luck, it does sound interesting.

Steve



Thanks! I don't think there is any stipulation on where the e-brake needs to be (haven't found one in my state) however finding a caliper that would work on the front with the fiero front end that supports mechanical actuation would be the challenge here.
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Report this Post10-22-2013 11:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FFIEROFREDClick Here to Email FFIEROFREDSend a Private Message to FFIEROFREDEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The front doesn't have enough weight on it to stop the car in less then a week. I would look at the "BIG BRAKE" options for the rear of a fiero that use's a P-brake. Lots of info on here for using big brakes, on the rear, with the P-brake working. I would look at finding a caliper that fits, that has the P-brake built in to it.
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Report this Post10-22-2013 12:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tesmith66Send a Private Message to tesmith66Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Need pics. How was the steering handled? Homemade toe link rods? Maybe a simple bracket to adapt the standard GM metric rear calipers w/ parking brake is all you need. Look up calipers for 85 Cadillac Seville or Olds Toronado.
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Report this Post10-22-2013 01:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nyjetfanSend a Private Message to nyjetfanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tesmith66:

Need pics. How was the steering handled? Homemade toe link rods? Maybe a simple bracket to adapt the standard GM metric rear calipers w/ parking brake is all you need. Look up calipers for 85 Cadillac Seville or Olds Toronado.


Are these brackets something typically available for purchase or is it something that would have to be fabricated to fit this application? My ultimate goal would be to replace the calipers (either the stock fieros in the front or the buick in the rear) with calipers that have a mechanical actuator (ie accomodate the cable).

Hopefully this picture works, but the steering was terminated on the subframe so the tie rods keep equidistant (ie wheels always pointing straight).

Note: The coilover shock has been removed in this picture which allows you to see things a little better. This picture is the right rear, and on the left you can see the old steering linkage which is terminated on the subframe.



Appreciate all the help!
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Report this Post10-22-2013 02:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
For whatever it's worth, 1969 to 1987 Saab 99s and 900s came from the factory with a front e-brake (poor man's limited slip for low traction scenarios), and they don't have issues passing inspection...

Edit: And a buddy of mine had a 1987 Saab 900 with Wilwood brakes that eliminated the front handbrake, and he installed a hydraulic handbrake instead. Not a line lock, but a lever actuated, locking hydraulic brake. He got through inspection in New Jersey with it.

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 10-22-2013).]

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Report this Post10-22-2013 02:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nyjetfanSend a Private Message to nyjetfanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:

For whatever it's worth, 1969 to 1987 Saab 99s and 900s came from the factory with a front e-brake (poor man's limited slip for low traction scenarios), and they don't have issues passing inspection...

Edit: And a buddy of mine had a 1987 Saab 900 with Wilwood brakes that eliminated the front handbrake, and he installed a hydraulic handbrake instead. Not a line lock, but a lever actuated, locking hydraulic brake. He got through inspection in New Jersey with it.



Thanks thesameguy - That is useful information. I am hoping to find a caliper replacement (as close to bolt in as possible) that will allow the cable to be connected, and I don't worry as much about it being front or rear, as its really to pass inspection more so than to provide any stopping capabilities.

I will have to look at the lever activated hydraulic brake, and will probably inquire if they are allowed in NC, although depending on where it is installed I'm not even sure if the inspector would pay much/any attention to it as long as it functioned. I need to take two cars of my own through inspection, so I have to see if I can find a friendly inspection station that might be willing to work with us a bit to get this car through, although I know they are afraid of the state watching them and fining them if they aren't "by the book" with the inspection.
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Report this Post10-22-2013 02:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A little off topic, but what was the purpose of installing the Buick sub frame when it would have been so much simpler to install the engine and transmission on the Fiero cradle?

From the one photo you posted, I think he will have greater problems getting the cradle mounting design approved than he will with any e-brake set-up (not to mention the Buick suspension will be optimized for front end geometry with things like anti-dive becoming pro-squat in the rear, and camber and toe curves that will surely be detrimental to handling).
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Report this Post10-22-2013 04:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaClick Here to Email qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I thought the idea behind rear emergency brake was that when you pull the lever, the front end can still steer. Not sure id want the front to lock up (if it could). I understand the parking brake angle, it just needs to keep the car from rolling. Not sure it helps, but I think 88 calipers are all the same, except that the rear have the E-brake setup, I think I read that you could put the fronts on the rear if you had too.

I agree with the post above, why do all that work, when the 3800/trans would fit on the fiero cradle?

Rob
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Report this Post10-22-2013 05:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nyjetfanSend a Private Message to nyjetfanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by qwikgta:

I thought the idea behind rear emergency brake was that when you pull the lever, the front end can still steer. Not sure id want the front to lock up (if it could). I understand the parking brake angle, it just needs to keep the car from rolling. Not sure it helps, but I think 88 calipers are all the same, except that the rear have the E-brake setup, I think I read that you could put the fronts on the rear if you had too.

I agree with the post above, why do all that work, when the 3800/trans would fit on the fiero cradle?

Rob


Thanks Rob - I also would agree with the above post and the only "why" I can offer is they were extending the chassis/frame anyway, so I'm guessing cutting the rear of the fiero off and then splicing in the buick was deemed easier than doing the extension of the fiero frame and then moving the 3800/trans over afterwards. This was the status of the car when my friend picked it up, and I'd have preferred it was done with the original fiero rear clip/cradle, however I don't think its worth the time/effort at this point to undo all of that.

I will have to do some research as I believe the Fiero chassis was 1987, so I'm not sure if the front and rear calipers are interchangeable.

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Report this Post10-22-2013 11:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Lever type "master cylinder" w/ a lock still has same problem as line locks.
Any locks are for temp use only with Driver in or very nearby, never for parking.

A big problem is...
Even New seals on calipers, slaves, etc, seals can/will leak enough fluid to lose pressure because normal seals are not made to take 800-1200+ PSI for a long time. When any lock is active, losing <1ml of fluid can hurt line pressure and braking and likely you won't see a leak that small.

Hoses and lines don't like full time high pressure either.

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Report this Post10-23-2013 07:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for nyjetfanSend a Private Message to nyjetfanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

Lever type "master cylinder" w/ a lock still has same problem as line locks.
Any locks are for temp use only with Driver in or very nearby, never for parking.

A big problem is...
Even New seals on calipers, slaves, etc, seals can/will leak enough fluid to lose pressure because normal seals are not made to take 800-1200+ PSI for a long time. When any lock is active, losing <1ml of fluid can hurt line pressure and braking and likely you won't see a leak that small.

Hoses and lines don't like full time high pressure either.



Thanks Ogre, this is really something that would be used for "parking" during inspection, and I agree its not really an ideal solution. I'm not sure if its even acceptable in my state, and I'm leaning towards finding something to work with the rear brakes, as it would be easier since they are "fixed" relative to the chassis whereas a cable to the front would have to allow for steering which could complicate things.
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Report this Post10-23-2013 09:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by nyjetfan:
Thanks Ogre, this is really something that would be used for "parking" during inspection, and I agree its not really an ideal solution. I'm not sure if its even acceptable in my state, and I'm leaning towards finding something to work with the rear brakes, as it would be easier since they are "fixed" relative to the chassis whereas a cable to the front would have to allow for steering which could complicate things.

Most OE use rear for same reason.

some use this plan Grand Am Ebrake how-to

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Report this Post10-23-2013 10:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for nyjetfanSend a Private Message to nyjetfanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

Most OE use rear for same reason.

some use this plan Grand Am Ebrake how-to


Thanks for that pointer Ogre. Also, let me add thanks for "the cave" as I can't even tell you how many times I've been able to find solutions to many issues with this car and also learned a great deal of general automotive knowledge.

Will investigate that link further and see if I can get a pair of seville rear rotors and start looking at what all would be needed for a swap. Hopefully it can be done with just an adapter plate and also re-installing the e-brake related hardware (cable, adjuster, ebrake lever, etc).

If we had choice of solutions it would be (in order) - 1 conversion of rear brakes to support e-brake, 2 conversion of front brakes to support e-brake, 3 - hydraulic lock (which would be used strictly for inspection and emergency purposes).

Thanks to the link you sent, and an earlier mention of seville calipers by tesmith66, I'm going to investigate that more in depth.

Thanks again Ogre and everyone else who has responded. Will let you know what I find.
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Report this Post10-23-2013 12:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SileClick Here to Email SileSend a Private Message to SileEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:


depends is your state inspection allow for front e brakes, never heard of it myself, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist ether. Never had any idea they had frt e brakes on anything as far cars go but maybe someone will pipe up with some idea, remember e brakes have to be mechanical and not hydraulically driven to pass in any state that I know of. Good luck, it does sound interesting.

Steve


Moving from California to Kansas there is one great thing and that is the state inspections I'm used to an all day ordeal watching my car get a rectum examination smogged ect sometimes takes a couple days to get it all wrapped up, in kansas they only inspect out of state vehicles and even then all they do is check the vin...
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Report this Post10-23-2013 08:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nyjetfanSend a Private Message to nyjetfanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Sile:

Moving from California to Kansas there is one great thing and that is the state inspections I'm used to an all day ordeal watching my car get a rectum examination smogged ect sometimes takes a couple days to get it all wrapped up, in kansas they only inspect out of state vehicles and even then all they do is check the vin...


We're not in Kansas anymore Toto :-)

Did some research and came across a couple of interesting ideas - rather than replace what is there, I can augment with a dedicated mechanical caliper for parking brake only. Will require some fabrication to get a bracket to position these calipers. Also need to verify the rotor thickness as the first one works with 0.81" rotors whereas the second one is adjustable from like 1/2" up to 1 3/8". Going to pull the tire this weekend and see how hard it would be to fabricate a bracket to hold one of these in place.

Curious if anyone has used anything like this in the past and if there are any "gotchas" or is this possibly a rathole I really don't want to go down?

http://www.wilwood.com/Cali...spx?itemno=120-12069 (120-12070 is the other side)

Another option:
http://www.ipsco.org/Custom.../Parking%20Brake.htm

[This message has been edited by nyjetfan (edited 10-23-2013).]

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Report this Post10-24-2013 01:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Adding a puck might be legal... Legal or not, note that Pucks do have problem.
(GM and others now use drums for Pbrake and Disk main rear because it's easy to service etc... )
Depending on puck design...
Pucks won't self adjust but shouldn't be a problem most cases. (I think the OE Pbrake drums won't self adjust either. Just main disk does.)
Pucks can freeze in winter, rust freeze, etc.
Puck pads can wear from driving.
They need some regular attention/service to keep them alive.

testing: see FMVSS 571.105 and 571.135 for office P brake tests.
Testing is not hard.
105 is harder test and was use to make Fiero... if you pass that will likely pass anywhere in the US.

short version:
test Pbrake when trans is in neutral...
FMVSS 571.105 test the subsystem on a small "hill..." 30% grade for 5 minute. test done w/ car nose up and down the hill. Update version Pbrake test, 571.135 published in 1995, is same but on a lower hill... 20% Grade.
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Report this Post10-24-2013 02:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:
A little off topic, but what was the purpose of installing the Buick sub frame when it would have been so much simpler to install the engine and transmission on the Fiero cradle?

From the one photo you posted, I think he will have greater problems getting the cradle mounting design approved than he will with any e-brake set-up (not to mention the Buick suspension will be optimized for front end geometry with things like anti-dive becoming pro-squat in the rear, and camber and toe curves that will surely be detrimental to handling).


Not to mention that it will probably make bump-steer a bigger problem than it already is with the factory pre-88 Fiero suspension…
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Report this Post10-24-2013 02:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I used puck-style mechanical calipers on my '29 hot rod (Jag rear end) but I can't say how effective they are because I haven't got it on the road yet.



I can't imagine that it would be any less work to go this route though since you still have to design a mounting bracket. The other issue is that they must be lightly loaded with spring pressure on the cable otherwise they rattle since they must float on a slider mechanism. This creates a little bit of drag, but it also wears the pads out faster. As Ogre said, they're not self adjusting either. One PFF member who no longer posts here used this same style on his modified Fiero but hard mounted them instead and most certainly ran into troubles.

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Report this Post10-24-2013 03:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nyjetfanSend a Private Message to nyjetfanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:

I used puck-style mechanical calipers on my '29 hot rod (Jag rear end) but I can't say how effective they are because I haven't got it on the road yet.



I can't imagine that it would be any less work to go this route though since you still have to design a mounting bracket. The other issue is that they must be lightly loaded with spring pressure on the cable otherwise they rattle since they must float on a slider mechanism. This creates a little bit of drag, but it also wears the pads out faster. As Ogre said, they're not self adjusting either. One PFF member who no longer posts here used this same style on his modified Fiero but hard mounted them instead and most certainly ran into troubles.


Thanks Bloozberry and Ogre. The more I research and think about it, the more I like the idea of trying to get a pair of seville calipers to work in this setup. That way its 100% street legal, one less "moving part" to worry about. Does anyone have any templates for caliper adapter plates they could share, or some pointers on how/where I can get a pair for my application, as I'm probably going to need something to hold the new calipers in place, and based on pictures I've seen, its not going to be a direct bolt up (never is that easy).

Thanks again guys!
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