I had an 87 gt off the dealers lot in 1988 and one of the reasons I sold it was the heavy, wooden steering. Overinflating the front tires helped but wasnt really a solution. I have recently bought a 1986 gt and have been trying to see if adding power steering would be possible. I have googled and searched the topic and most of the threads Ive found are older and several mention operational setups but are short on specifics. what I would like to know is : 1: Is the 2000 up f-body rack the best choice 2: Will a 1980s fwd power steering pump mount to the 2.8 and run this rack. 3: The required adapters and mount. west coast fiero is only source? 4: Should lines be hard pipe or flex as they run under car. Any help with this would be appreciated but please no "why do you need power steering comments"
Why do you want power steering? Just kidding. I was on the quest myself... I figured if I was doing a 3800 motor swap I could use the power steering pump...
1: Is the 2000 up f-body rack the best choice A1. I don't know if the F-Body rack is the best choice, but I believe that is what you use with the WCF mounts. Someone used a Dodge Dakota rack, I think 88-91, but I can't find the thread...
2: Will a 1980s fwd power steering pump mount to the 2.8 and run this rack. A2. Dunno. I was dealing with a motor swap.
3: The required adapters and mount. west coast fiero is only source? A3. WCF makes them... If you can get them. I didn't have them after 3 months and gave up on my quest... You could fabricate your own...
4: Should lines be hard pipe or flex as they run under car. A4. Hard lines.
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun?
The idea of electric power steering is intriguing but the cost and complexity seem to make it impractical. Even a stand alone electric steering pump is $1000. Does anybody know if the power steering conversion kit is currently available from WCF. Does anyone have an operational setup. I know the Mercur rack was used for a while but finding a good rack might be difficult.
There is a place in Florida that does power steering conversions for Fieros. I believe that they use a MR2 pump and some other components. I can likely find the specific business if you need the info. I also have one of the original "factory experimental "Fiero EHPS units in my basement.
Drop me a PM or e-mail if you want the info because I am not on PFF every day.
I was talking to one of the award winners at the 30th. He mentioned that his PS conversion is using the later model MR2 Spyder, electric pump. Seems like the way to go.
I had an 87 gt off the dealers lot in 1988 and one of the reasons I sold it was the heavy, wooden steering. Overinflating the front tires helped but wasnt really a solution. I have recently bought a 1986 gt and have been trying to see if adding power steering would be possible. I have googled and searched the topic and most of the threads Ive found are older and several mention operational setups but are short on specifics. what I would like to know is : 1: Is the 2000 up f-body rack the best choice 2: Will a 1980s fwd power steering pump mount to the 2.8 and run this rack. 3: The required adapters and mount. west coast fiero is only source? 4: Should lines be hard pipe or flex as they run under car. Any help with this would be appreciated but please no "why do you need power steering comments"
Rickady has already done this on his 88GT. Why don't you send him a PM? Kit
The mr2 electric steering pump seems to be commonly used. The install gets more complicated if you are using it on a daily driver. If the pump runs all the time it draws a lot of power. In order to control this you need to wire up the steering controller and the column mounted sensor. The advantage of this setup is that you can mount it all up front. Rickady has done a lot of work on setting up power steering but thisainly applies to the 1988 chassis which is different from mine.
Rickady has already done this on his 88GT. Why don't you send him a PM? Kit
Thanks Kit: As far sa the original post goes, my bias opinipon is that a fast ratio steering system is better for the Fiero. In order to get a fast ratio syatem functonal as an everyday use car you will need assist. The most common assist will be in the form of an original fully functional factory system. The system I chose to drive most is the "F" body GM system (2000 Firebird/ Camaro). This is in my opinion a VERY good system because it has a great feel and effect. In the simple, it works great and works with common GM parts. I have had this system for several years without a glitch and would never own a Fiero with one again. BUT I am a little bias towards it
The mr2 electric steering pump seems to be commonly used.
I am not against an electric pump, but can you please define "commonly used"? I know of only a small hand full of this type of pump used in a Fiero with accdepable results? There are several attempts at making it work but an attempt should not count as "commonly used" Unless you are also including other forums as a sorce that I dont know of? If so I am open for an electric pump that works better than a factory GM pump and already has a functional belt system. A hydrualic pump has drawbacks, but so does an electric pump. For the most part GM has worked out the bugs in the hydro system, but I dont know of any electric pump without bugs? Even the factory GM electric systems have more drawbacks than the "oldfationed hydro systems".
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 10-15-2013).]
1: Is the 2000 up f-body rack the best choice? Sort of and no. I used the 2000 F body rack but the 95-97 F rack has a better angle at the pinion for connecting your steering column linkage.
2: Will a 1980s fwd power steering pump mount to the 2.8 and run this rack? No No.
3: The required adapters and mount. west coast fiero is only source? I don't know but I got mine from them. Could find no others.
4: Should lines be hard pipe or flex as they run under car. I used flex and ran it thru the ground F-X rocker. ( 86 SE)
I also used the 2000-2005 MR-2 Spyder pump. Its a complete system. It does not run all the time. There are no sensors to add to the steering wheel. It senses pressure. You move the wheel and it kicks in. It also has an input for your VSS speed sensor. At a given speed MPH it will shut down and its like standard steering.
The speed sensor in a Fiero is the same PPM (Pulses per Mile) as the MR-2 so its compatible.
These MR-2 Spyder pumps go on ebay for around $300-$350. A used F-body rack may bring $150.
Hope this answers most of your questions.
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
[This message has been edited by Spoon (edited 10-15-2013).]
When I said the mr2 pump was commonly used I meant in general it is the oem electric pump that is being used for custom installs, but not neccessarily in fieros. Spoon, are you still using the mr2 pump and did you use the control module or was it wired on all the time.
When I said the mr2 pump was commonly used I meant in general it is the oem electric pump that is being used for custom installs, but not neccessarily in fieros. Spoon, are you still using the mr2 pump and did you use the control module or was it wired on all the time.
Been using it for 3 or more years. There is no separate control module. What you see in the pic is all of it. Module, pump, resevoir is all built into one unit. I think your confusing the MR-2 pre 2000 with the Mr-2 Spyder. The older version had 3 or more separate components and was noisey & loud. The Spyder version is nearly quiet as a mouse.
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
Been using it for 3 or more years. There is no separate control module. What you see in the pic is all of it. Module, pump, resevoir is all built into one unit. I think your confusing the MR-2 pre 2000 with the Mr-2 Spyder. The older version had 3 or more separate components and was noisey & loud. The Spyder version is nearly quiet as a mouse.
Spoon
This is very good to know, thank you. A front mount batt and a front mount pump of this type could be a very good option? Do you know the pressure and volume of the MR2 pump? Does it have a delay?
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 10-16-2013).]
Rickady you probably know more about this subject than anyone . which rack would you recomend the 2000 or a 95-97. What are you running for a pump on your swaps or what would you suggest for a pump for a 2.8 Are you still making your adapters and would they be suitable for a 1986. Thanks
This is very good to know, thank you. A front mount batt and a front mount pump of this type could be a very good option? Do you know the pressure and volume of the MR2 pump? Does it have a delay?
I don't know the pressure or the volume but I do have a 2000 psi gauge I'm going to tee into the line for testing pressure. For now I can only do a visual on the volume as the fluid returns to the reservoir. I might add that these readings are going to be dynamic because the pump has 3 or 4 stages of operation. There's an idle rpm so there is no lag when you need assist. From a stand still (car not moving) the instant you move the wheel the pump will quickly spool up to max rpm-pressure for assist. The less assist required it will step down the assist. 3 stages in all I believe.
Once your up to speed I'd say 35 mph the assist drops off and it feels like a non power steering car like my previous 85 Trans Am. I'm running the WS6 quick ratio rack 2000. All I can say is wow.
Power steering is a bad idea if you like driving a sports car hard - they sap the feel. Every time I get back into my 88 GT after driving one of my other cars that has power steering, I delight in the directness and feel of the Fiero. Unless an owner is handicapped (e.g. muscle problems) I can't see bothering with a conversion.
Did you remove the steering damper on the 87? That lightens things up significantly, although it still won't be as good as the 88?
Power steering is a bad idea if you like driving a sports car hard - they sap the feel. Every time I get back into my 88 GT after driving one of my other cars that has power steering, I delight in the directness and feel of the Fiero. Unless an owner is handicapped (e.g. muscle problems) I can't see bothering with a conversion.
Did you remove the steering damper on the 87? That lightens things up significantly, although it still won't be as good as the 88?
I have heard this "argument" a few times, and can only say that I respectfull disagree with you. In your post you said you have a car with power steering, is that other car a Fiero? If that other car is a Fiero, do you know the steering ratio of that rack? Other factors that with influence the steering feel are pressure and volume, piston size of the rack and even the length and diamiter of the lines will affect performance of the rack. I guess the bottom line here is that there are SSSOOOOO many factors that will make a steering system feel and work good in the car BUT one of the biggest factors is the drivers expectations and preferances. Your post does not even adress why I did power steering. I did not do power steering for "feel" or "effort" at all. I did power steering for a MUCH faster ratio. I can assure you that this system is better than the original manual Fiero rack in ALL situations. The faster steering ratio is very difficult to turn without assist and with assist the "feel" is close to the original Fiero rack. To drive this power rack without assist is just.......not a good idea.
This is a new product that WCF has for the Fiero, Info will be on the web soon. I can tel you that the steering has adjustable torque output and is very easy to install Price is 1350.00
This is a new product that WCF has for the Fiero, Info will be on the web soon. I can tel you that the steering has adjustable torque output and is very easy to install Price is 1350.00 ...
...and of course they'll always be "in stock and ready to ship."
So I called WCF today to ask about getting the mount and rack adapters for the f-body conversion. The person who answered seemed to suggest that they dont stock these parts but make them up as needed. He said it would only take a day to make them. I have decided I will buy these parts from WCF and hopefully they are able to produce them reasonably quickly. For a rack I will order a 2000 TransAm rack. Spoon had said he thougjt the earlier rack would line up better so I hope my choice isnt a mistake. For the pump I expect I will ise a firebird pump and make up brackets as required. This I will leave to the end as a mr2 spyder pump would give a much neater install especially if that and the battery were front mounted. Again Spoon jas a very tidy install but sourcing the mr2 spyder pump may be difficult as I believe this model was never sold in Canada.
You won't be disappointed with the F-body rack. I felt like it was the single best modification I made, more than the northstar, more than the 6 speed. It made the car an absolute dream to autocross.
If that system connects directly to the standard rack it would avoid the issues with mounts and adapters, as well as lines and pumps. We are lucky that there are still companies willing to develop products for 25 year old cars.
Rickady you probably know more about this subject than anyone . which rack would you recomend the 2000 or a 95-97. What are you running for a pump on your swaps or what would you suggest for a pump for a 2.8 Are you still making your adapters and would they be suitable for a 1986. Thanks
I have a 2000 rack and it has been linked to two different pumps. The original engine swap was a 2000 Short Star and the stock PS pump worked great for the rack. The pump I have now is the stock pump from the LS4 in my current engine transplant. I cant tell a differance between the two pumps, they work just as well on the rack. I never made any adaptors for the pre88, so all I can say is that WCF can hook you up. I have done the "standard" rack and the "fast ratio" rack from several years from the F body. I can say that either one is better in the Fiero than the stock manual rack but I would rather have the WS6 "fast ratio" rack. Yes there is a differance somewhere in the years and I have installed them both. One will locate the steering shaft closer to the "frame rail". When I did the swaps my priority was not affecting the suspension geomitry. So I located the rack so it put the adaptors in the exact spot of the stock Fiero manual rack tie rod ends. This located the steering shaft at diferent locations depending on the racks original application. Some fit better than others, but all of them have some draw backs. I have not found a "perfect" rack to swap into the Fiero, I have only found better racks than the stock Fiero rack. Perfect would be a direct bolt in with no modifications.
Gotta ask; why did you put the "Pump" in the trunk. and run lines to the Front of the car, instead of just putting the pump up front ??
I was waiting for that shoe to drop.
A couple reasons. When I transplant an 05 GTO engine in the bay the hoses will already be there. "Dreaming but I sure wish".
Down to earth reason: All the electrical components are in the back. Speed sensor VSS, Pos & Neg connections, Some sound proofing but not needed, Additional power relay to start the pump, Aux oil pressure switch (This turns on the system and is set for 15 psi). So if the key is turned on the PS will not activate unless the engine is started and 15 psi oil pressure is reached. Just like with a regular PS pump,, No PS unless engine is running.
I'd much rather run 2 hoses than a lot of wiring the length of the car. Also when checking battery and fluid levels the PS is right there.
All the wires in these 3 clips are not needed. Most are for Toyota steering diagnostics, warning indicators, etc.
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
Rickady: Thanks for the reply. Thats exactly the info I was looking for. Spoon: You dont need to justify anything. Front or back thats a very clean install.
I have a used 84-87 Link Racing system. Very worn out. I may not want to sell it but I could possibly remake the brackets to mount the pump to the 2.8 V-6 in the Fiero. I would also need to make the add on crank pulley. He used a steel (power steering) pulley off some GM(?) car on the pump. I could have them made in aluminum if no one could find what he used.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
I have a used 84-87 Link Racing system. Very worn out. I may not want to sell it but I could possibly remake the brackets to mount the pump to the 2.8 V-6 in the Fiero. I would also need to make the add on crank pulley. He used a steel (power steering) pulley off some GM(?) car on the pump. I could have them made in aluminum if no one could find what he used.
Originally posted by Rickady88GT: I have done the "standard" rack and the "fast ratio" rack from several years from the F body. I can say that either one is better in the Fiero than the stock manual rack but I would rather have the WS6 "fast ratio" rack. Yes there is a differance somewhere in the years and I have installed them both. One will locate the steering shaft closer to the "frame rail".
How did the WS6 F-body rack compare to the ZR1 corvette rack that you had installed? IIRC, the ZR1 rack was 2.25 turns lock to lock, what is the ratio of the WS6 rack?
[This message has been edited by Silicoan86 (edited 10-23-2013).]
How did the WS6 F-body rack compare to the ZR1 corvette rack that you had installed? IIRC, the ZR1 rack was 2.25 turns lock to lock, what is the ratio of the WS6 rack?
The ZR1 was 2.0 and the WS6 was 2.5. Corvette was fast and the WS6 ratio is what the Fiero should have came with if it ever had power steering. Maybe the ZR1 should have been a "performace/race" option. I also had a machine shop weld and redrill a set of front bearing carriers to shorten the steering arms for faster steering. WAYYY to fast ratio for me. Maybe good for drifters but a WS6 rack AND short arms, dangerus fast steering. It would lane change in the time it took for your heart to beat once. I took off the modified hubs for stock hubs and all is well. The Vette rack is a better fit in the Fiero because I did not need to cut the front tire tub to make room for the hydraulic lines. But the Vette rack is hard to find.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 10-23-2013).]
I have a C6 Vette rack fast ratio (about 2 turns lock to lock) with rod end adaptors I got from Rickady and I love it. I use the original Cadi pump that is on my Northstar. It still not an "easy" steer - my pickup is way easier - perhaps my pump is tired? - and I still have LOTS of "feel". The fast ratio is lots of fun and the transplant is well worth the effort. And doing it this way you preserve the original geometry of the steering - mine is an 88 so this was important to me. I would recommend this to anyone interested in PS. I ought to put a gauge on the pressure line to see about the pump.....
[This message has been edited by Daviero (edited 10-23-2013).]
I have a C6 Vette rack fast ratio (about 2 turns lock to lock) with rod end adaptors I got from Rickady and I love it. I use the original Cadi pump that is on my Northstar. It still not an "easy" steer - my pickup is way easier - perhaps my pump is tired? - and I still have LOTS of "feel". The fast ratio is lots of fun and the transplant is well worth the effort. And doing it this way you preserve the original geometry of the steering - mine is an 88 so this was important to me. I would recommend this to anyone interested in PS. I ought to put a gauge on the pressure line to see about the pump.....
Cool, thanks, I am glad you like it. I did not know they worked on the C6? I made them for the C4. The fast ratio is VERRRRY hard to steer without assist. So even with assist the steering effort is going to be heavy with the "2.0" rack. Then if you add large wheels the effort gets even heavyer. Your pump may be good? Unless the steering is unrealistically hard. Depending on the relief valve in your pump it can make well over 1,000psi so you should get enough help from it to drive the car comfortably with stock sized tires.
A couple reasons. When I transplant an 05 GTO engine in the bay the hoses will already be there. "Dreaming but I sure wish".
Down to earth reason: All the electrical components are in the back. Speed sensor VSS, Pos & Neg connections, Some sound proofing but not needed, Additional power relay to start the pump, Aux oil pressure switch (This turns on the system and is set for 15 psi). So if the key is turned on the PS will not activate unless the engine is started and 15 psi oil pressure is reached. Just like with a regular PS pump,, No PS unless engine is running.
I'd much rather run 2 hoses than a lot of wiring the length of the car. Also when checking battery and fluid levels the PS is right there.
All the wires in these 3 clips are not needed. Most are for Toyota steering diagnostics, warning indicators, etc.
Spoon
Spoon,
We've talked about our power steering before. I finished installing the Spyder pump, but recently something went wrong and I think I need a new pump. I would like to wire it up with the aux oil pressure as you did. Can you please share any more details on how to do that?
I used to have the older MR2 pump and all the electrical components. It worked okay, but was very noisey. I wouldn't recommend this setup due to the noise. I removed that setup and installed the newer MR2 Spyder pump over the summer just prior to the 30th. It worked fine through the show and the return trip, then quit. Both of my setups were installed with the pump under the passenger front fascia. Since I have an 88, I have a VSS signal up front already.
For my rack, I also bought adapters from Rickady88GT and used the C4 ZR1 fast ratio rack.
------------------ 1988 Fiero GT Custom Corvette / MR2 electro-hydraulic power steering Staggered 16" & 17" rims over 11.25" rotors with Cadillac Calipers & drop spindles
[This message has been edited by TG oreiF 8891 (edited 10-23-2013).]
Switch Has 3 terminals so it will work as normally open or normally closed. You want Normally open. I upgraded to the 88 o/p switch during this mod. You want this switch to break the circuit on the "B" clip pin 5 . This is normally switched on with the ignition.
I also added a cooler from a 96 Grand Cherokee, just in case.
And be sure to use the expensive Toyota fluid.
Sorry about your pump. I just picked up a backup on Ebay for situations like this.
Spoon ------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
[This message has been edited by Spoon (edited 10-23-2013).]
This is a new product that WCF has for the Fiero, Info will be on the web soon. I can tel you that the steering has adjustable torque output and is very easy to install Price is 1350.00
Has anyone purchased the electric power steering setup from West Cost Fiero?
