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Running pig rich and stalls when warm by Tweeder
Started on: 10-09-2013 11:19 PM
Replies: 68 (1043 views)
Last post by: Tweeder on 06-05-2014 02:41 AM
Tweeder
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Report this Post10-09-2013 11:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm talking diesel rich, the pipes are black and you can visually see it rolling out the pipe with every spike of the throttle. I have seen my fuel trims at -17. Once it's warm it surges and wants to stall. I have replaced the o2, iac, maf and map sensors. I noticed a small header leak at cylinder #2 because the header wrap was getting sooty. It wasn't something that I could feel but I welded it up. The spark plugsan o2 were sooty. MThe idle seems normal. I doubt I have a vacuum leak as its all new hoses. I did spray the engine with carb cleaner ad seafoamed it and didn't turn up anything.

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Report this Post10-10-2013 12:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AL68Click Here to Email AL68Send a Private Message to AL68Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
pull the vacuum hose off the fuel pressure regulator & see if any fuel comes out - a bad one will leak fuel into the intake through the hose
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Report this Post10-10-2013 12:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AL68:

pull the vacuum hose off the fuel pressure regulator & see if any fuel comes out - a bad one will leak fuel into the intake through the hose


I've tried that in the past but it won't hurt to try it again.

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Report this Post10-10-2013 12:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Check out what the ECM is seeing on Tunerpro or whatever if you have a scanner, maybe you have some bad wiring from sensor to ECM... The O2 sensor operates in a relatively small range ( I think if I remember correctly the voltages I have seen are between 200mv and 800mv). Have you checked fuel pressure? Possible bad regulator? I doubt injectors would go bad enough to cause that... Would the wrong type of injectors cause that? (impedance-wise)... maybe your cold start injector is stuck open.

Edit to say saw 3800 in signature so disregard if you are not referring to a 2.8

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 10-10-2013).]

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Report this Post10-10-2013 12:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:

Check out what the ECM is seeing on Tunerpro or whatever if you have a scanner, maybe you have some bad wiring from sensor to ECM... The O2 sensor operates in a relatively small range ( I think if I remember correctly the voltages I have seen are between 200mv and 800mv). Have you checked fuel pressure? Possible bad regulator? I doubt injectors would go bad enough to cause that... Would the wrong type of injectors cause that? (impedance-wise)... maybe your cold start injector is stuck open.

Edit to say saw 3800 in signature so disregard if you are not referring to a 2.8



Yeah it's a 3800sc. I will have to scan the new o2 and see. My fuel pressure is 40+.

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Report this Post10-10-2013 01:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AL68Click Here to Email AL68Send a Private Message to AL68Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What's the MAP sensor reading ? An EGR valve stuck open or a bad intake gasket could cause a low vacuum problem making the map sensor add too much fuel.
I used to see this all the time on S10 4.3's, they make an egr gasket with a built-in screen to keep carbon pieces out of the valves.

If the MAF sensor readings look wrong try unpluging it (engine will use it's default values) & see if it runs better - this usually works more for MAF caused hesitation problems.

[This message has been edited by AL68 (edited 10-10-2013).]

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Report this Post10-10-2013 02:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AL68:

What's the MAP sensor reading ? An EGR valve stuck open or a bad intake gasket could cause a low vacuum problem making the map sensor add too much fuel.
I used to see this all the time on S10 4.3's, they make an egr gasket with a built-in screen to keep carbon pieces out of the valves.

If the MAF sensor readings look wrong try unpluging it (engine will use it's default values) & see if it runs better - this usually works more for MAF caused hesitation problems.



I will have to log a new tune tomorrow to see what the map readings are. I have no egr. I hope the maf is correct as its new.

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Report this Post10-10-2013 08:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Does your setup use a Coolant Temperature Sensor? The symptoms sound similar to what a 2.8 would suffer if the sensor suddenly defaulted to the cold side. Mine happened from one stop light to the next. Stopped at one light and everything was fine. At the next one, it was like I'd done a diesel engine swap. Black smoke everywhere.
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Report this Post10-10-2013 09:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:

Does your setup use a Coolant Temperature Sensor? The symptoms sound similar to what a 2.8 would suffer if the sensor suddenly defaulted to the cold side. Mine happened from one stop light to the next. Stopped at one light and everything was fine. At the next one, it was like I'd done a diesel engine swap. Black smoke everywhere.


Yeah it does, is there any way to test the sensor? Or can I get a reading in hptuners? I do see the temp guage move.

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Report this Post10-10-2013 10:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 92wastheyearClick Here to Email 92wastheyearSend a Private Message to 92wastheyearEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Tweeder:


Yeah it does, is there any way to test the sensor? Or can I get a reading in hptuners? I do see the temp guage move.



In the 2.8 the Coolant Temp Sensor data is strictly for the computer to adjust fuel mixture. The gauge uses a different sensor/sender....and the fan uses another .....third one
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Report this Post10-10-2013 11:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 92wastheyear:


In the 2.8 the Coolant Temp Sensor data is strictly for the computer to adjust fuel mixture. The gauge uses a different sensor/sender....and the fan uses another .....third one


I'm running the 3800sc as in my sig but if the sensor controls the fuel mixture the same in both engines the it's possible mine is nfg.

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Report this Post10-10-2013 01:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AL68Click Here to Email AL68Send a Private Message to AL68Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A bad temp sensor is a good possibility, it works the same on both motors. It could stay at a low temp reading & run the engine rich. Check the temp reading & see if it matches the actual engine temp cold and hot. I had a 2.8 with a corroded temp sensor plug, would read -19 degrees and run rich but no code, -19 was within it's normal operating range.

To test the wiring and PCM unplug the sensor, it should read -40 degrees, connect the plug's two black/yellow wires & should read 250+ degrees.
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Report this Post10-10-2013 01:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AL68:

A bad temp sensor is a good possibility, it works the same on both motors. It could stay at a low temp reading & run the engine rich. Check the temp reading & see if it matches the actual engine temp cold and hot. I had a 2.8 with a corroded temp sensor plug, would read -19 degrees and run rich but no code, -19 was within it's normal operating range.

To test the wiring and PCM unplug the sensor, it should read -40 degrees, connect the plug's two black/yellow wires & should read 250+ degrees.


Awesome thanks

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Report this Post10-10-2013 02:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Tweeder, go to the Georgia Fiero website at www.gafiero.org then click on message board. Do a search for temperature sensor chart and you'll find a chart that applies to all GM temperature sensors. It will tell you if the CTS is reasonably accurate. All you need is an ohmmeter.
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Report this Post10-10-2013 04:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well I believe you have a scanner. Rather than checking part of it (just the sensor) check all of it by reading the temperature reported by the scanner. Then that includes the wiring and the PCM receiving it. If the scanner doesn't check out to be reading the correct temp then drill down into it by examining the sensor itself, the wiring, the PCM...
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Report this Post10-15-2013 10:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I finally had a few mins, literally few mins. The ect and air both show 15 the map shows 230 with KOEO.

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Report this Post10-19-2013 07:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
For those of you that have hptuners here is a short log with it warm and it surging as well as running rich.

http://www.hptuners.com/for...and-surges-when-warm

had to post a link as i'm not sure how to post the actual file
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[This message has been edited by Tweeder (edited 10-19-2013).]

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Report this Post10-22-2013 01:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bump.

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Report this Post10-28-2013 12:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I went out and really doused the upper manifold gasket with two cans of carb cleaner and I seem to have a leak in the manifold next to the thermostat so I have a new gasket ordered and will be in on Wednesday. Anything I should take care of easily as I have the blower off?

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[This message has been edited by Tweeder (edited 10-28-2013).]

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Report this Post11-03-2013 02:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have the new gasket on and I still have a leak from the same in the upper plenum around the thermostat housing area. What's going on?

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Report this Post11-04-2013 05:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bump.

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Report this Post11-05-2013 11:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bump.

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Report this Post11-12-2013 11:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I reseated the intake gasket and I think I got it but I'm still running rich and surging when warm. I made a contraption to pressurize the intake through the throttle body and I was leaking from the map so I took it out and siliconed it and that helped, now it leaked down from 20 or so psi very slowly, I soaped the engine and I didn't' see any. Mabey the purge solenoid? I'm thinking of taking off the throttle body and making a block off plate and then pressurize it from the octopus. I'm just wondering if if possibly be leaking from the brake boost port? I'll have to make a smoke test and see if that shows something

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Report this Post11-18-2013 06:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Not sure if this is it but I sprayed a soapy solution in the injector holes and sure enough injector number three is bubblin, so I have a set of o rings on order.

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Report this Post11-24-2013 05:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Got the new o rings in and now a new problem, I swear I get a new problem every time in fix something else. Now it won't start, I checked and I am getting fuel and spark but it backfires really powerful and loud. So powerful that it blows the rubber exhaust tubing right off the pipes.

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Report this Post11-25-2013 08:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Plug wires on wrong. Trace the front wires with your hand all the way to the plug.
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Report this Post11-25-2013 08:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

Plug wires on wrong. Trace the front wires with your hand all the way to the plug.


Nope, never touched em. Just took off the fuel rail to change o rings.

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Report this Post11-26-2013 12:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AL68Click Here to Email AL68Send a Private Message to AL68Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Distributor moved (loose clamp)? Spark at the wrong time is usually the only cause of a backfire like that. Could the coil wire and another wire on the cap be switched around?
I bought a Formula that the guy couldn't get started after working on it - he had the coil wire going to a plug wire terminal on the cap - it did backfire once every time the motor rotated.
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Report this Post11-26-2013 12:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AL68:

Distributor moved (loose clamp)? Spark at the wrong time is usually the only cause of a backfire like that. Could the coil wire and another wire on the cap be switched around?
I bought a Formula that the guy couldn't get started after working on it - he had the coil wire going to a plug wire terminal on the cap - it did backfire once every time the motor rotated.


Nope, 3800sc.

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Report this Post11-26-2013 09:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AL68Click Here to Email AL68Send a Private Message to AL68Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Tweeder:


Nope, 3800sc.



Forgot which post I was in - not sure if no distributor - sounds like an ignition problem but just pulling the fuel rail shouldn't cause that.
Injector connectors on the wrong Injectors? I don't think it makes a difference but I remember seeing injector
harnesses with numbers 1-6 on the plugs, may have been an earlier 3800.
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Report this Post11-26-2013 09:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AL68:


Forgot which post I was in - not sure if no distributor - sounds like an ignition problem but just pulling the fuel rail shouldn't cause that.
Injector connectors on the wrong Injectors? I don't think it makes a difference but I remember seeing injector
harnesses with numbers 1-6 on the plugs, may have been an earlier 3800.


Injectors correct, the way I have the wired run it can't be screwed up. The only think that I did before was pump smoke inside the motor to text for the leak, is it possible the smoke put a coating that's causing thinks to not work properly? I highly doubt it though.

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Report this Post11-26-2013 10:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AL68Click Here to Email AL68Send a Private Message to AL68Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It shouldn't cause any problems, I have a Snap-On smoke maching at work & use it all the time for vacuum leaks - never caused a problem yet.

Any chance there could be a loose ground or a bad connection at the injector harness main connector?
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Report this Post11-26-2013 10:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AL68:
Any chance there could be a loose ground or a bad connection at the injector harness main connector?


But it's getting fuel, thus the reason for the violant backfiring.

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Report this Post11-26-2013 11:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AL68Click Here to Email AL68Send a Private Message to AL68Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I was thinking there might be a bad ground for the crank sensor or ignition module making it fire at the wrong time, couldn't remember if some of the wires went through the large connector for the injectors & intake sensors, been a while since wiring my 3800sc.

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Report this Post11-28-2013 12:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bump.

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Report this Post12-13-2013 06:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I finally got time to do a log and I'll be damned, she fired up. Albeit it took a few times with it backfiring and stalling but then it stayed running. But I don't think I got that corner next to the thermostat housing sealed as when it was running I sprayed carb cleaner it stumbled. So I pressurized the intake and sprayed soapy water there and I couldn't get no bubbles? I don't know how it could be leaking as I put a good 1/4" bead of silicone around the whole intake, mabey I should put a few more layers all the way to the rotors.

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Report this Post12-15-2013 10:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Solutions?

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Report this Post12-17-2013 12:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AL68Click Here to Email AL68Send a Private Message to AL68Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If the carb cleaner caused a stumble you have a vacuum leak, you need to fix that first. Still don't get the backfire problem - lean backfire?

Just had an idea - is the boost bypass valve opening at idle? (Not sure what it would do if open)

[This message has been edited by AL68 (edited 12-17-2013).]

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Report this Post12-17-2013 12:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AL68:

If the carb cleaner caused a stumble you have a vacuum leak, you need to fix that first. Still don't get the backfire problem - maybe a lean bacfire?


Yeah but I wonder why that corners still leaking, I put a good helping of silicone on both sides of the gasket.

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