I need some tips, help, advice, instructions, whatever you have. I am putting this in my 87 fiero gt. thanks. Pictures are useful, im not for sure how to do this
If you want tips and advise; please tell us a bit about your setup. Engine, trans, powertrain mileage, horsepower goals, etc.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
oh this thread will end the way many other high mileage 2.8 "I wana turbo this" threads have gone.... *waits for the first person to mention what he 'should' do*
oh this thread will end the way many other high mileage 2.8 "I wana turbo this" threads have gone.... *waits for the first person to mention what he 'should' do*
Stage 4 would refer to the rake of the blades in the exhaust turbine. Stage 1 would be the least flow most spool and stage 5 would be the least spool most flow.
I am not sure anyone has really documented/put together a low cost turbo solution for the 2.8 have they? I am sure more than a few people would be interested in something in the 500-1000$ range that got you 5+ psi. Not everyone is keen on going upto a 3800 sc...
This is unfortunately a very annoying sales tactic on eBay. Lots of things that have nothing to do with being OEM or are even made in Japan, add "JDM" to their product name/description, just to charge more for it, and because it's made for some Japanese cars.
It makes things really annoying when trying to find some actual OEM JDM parts, and getting flooded with hundreds of results of crappy or unrelated things.
Were you trying to make a joke? Was it the "500-1000$ range" bit you were mocking, or the "5+ PSI" bit?
I meant it in the sense that only Fiero and low end JDM owners would expect a bolt in turbo kit for $500-1000. Hell it'd be nice to find one under 4k for f-bodies, wishful thinking..
I need some tips, help, advice, instructions, whatever you have. I am putting this in my 87 fiero gt. thanks. Pictures are useful, im not for sure how to do this
Tell us a little more like do you have a welder? Do you have a budget? A garage to work? Tools?
The steps are something like; find a location it fits, weld up the plumbing, change fuel pump, wire up an ECM, tune it. My advice is do not buy a non-name brand wastegate and blow off valve. Spend the money for the proven working stuff. The cheap Chinese knock offs will cause many problems later. This I discovered the hard way.
Originally posted by nitroheadz28: I meant it in the sense that only Fiero and low end JDM owners would expect a bolt in turbo kit for $500-1000. Hell it'd be nice to find one under 4k for f-bodies, wishful thinking..
I wouldn't call most Civics "JDM" by any means. Most of them are crap and wish they were JDM. The thing about the Fiero is you can't exactly run much boost on a 2.5 or 2.8. And likewise with most Hondas. They aren't built to run high boost. Hondas have the advantage of having the exhaust and intake systems situated in rather close proximity. With that, and a small turbo, it's very easy to have a very low cost turbo set up that is bolt on, and which even includes an air/air intercooler.
You could make a low-cost solution of similar design for some variations of the F-body, I'm sure. But the problem is that most people who want to turbo an F-body are not doing it in an 85 Camaro with a 2.5 4 cylinder. They want to make 1000 HP, and want to do it on a swapped-in LS based V8. You're not going to find a "bolt on" solution for that, and the turbos required to make that power, are going to be expensive.
There's a big difference between the engines, how they're configured in the cars, and what they can handle in stock trim.
Originally posted by Justinbart: What got me was rating a turbo kit by "PSI"
I don't think he was rating a turbo kit by "PSI" so much as just saying that "if you only need around 5 PSI, you don't need a big ass turbo that can make 30+ PSI." Obviously a turbo setup is a lot more complex than simply the boost pressure it can produce in the intake, but there's no point buying and trying to fit, a giant 80mm turbo, when a smaller 40mm one will do what's necessary, and fit in the available space more easily. There are obviously other variables to consider, but if you're wanting to throw a turbo on a 2.8, you might as well not spend money for something you'll never use.
Looks like I picked up a couple negs, thanks . Maybe one of the sensitive cheapskates who negged me can try selling these $1000 turbo setups and see how far they get, that guy boostexhaust (or whatever his name was) ring a bell?
quote
Originally posted by dobey:
I wouldn't call most Civics "JDM" by any means. Most of them are crap and wish they were JDM. The thing about the Fiero is you can't exactly run much boost on a 2.5 or 2.8. And likewise with most Hondas. They aren't built to run high boost. Hondas have the advantage of having the exhaust and intake systems situated in rather close proximity. With that, and a small turbo, it's very easy to have a very low cost turbo set up that is bolt on, and which even includes an air/air intercooler.
You could make a low-cost solution of similar design for some variations of the F-body, I'm sure. But the problem is that most people who want to turbo an F-body are not doing it in an 85 Camaro with a 2.5 4 cylinder. They want to make 1000 HP, and want to do it on a swapped-in LS based V8. You're not going to find a "bolt on" solution for that, and the turbos required to make that power, are going to be expensive.
There's a big difference between the engines, how they're configured in the cars, and what they can handle in stock trim.
How are they not JDM? Are they not Japanese? USDM cars= not American? Or am I missing something? There are actually a few bolt in kits for f-bodies, but thats neither here nor there. The point is that Fiero owners are extremely frugal, some of the most frugal I've ever come across in car culture. Not that its a bad thing in the grand scheme of things taking into account the type of car a Fiero is, BUT there are some crazy expectations aka a turbo setup for $500-1000 hence my remark. How does handling any power in stock trim mean anything? A turbo setup would be the same unless it was pushing extreme amounts of airflow, just size up the turbo accordingly.
Originally posted by nitroheadz28: How are they not JDM? Are they not Japanese? USDM cars= not American? Or am I missing something? There are actually a few bolt in kits for f-bodies, but thats neither here nor there. The point is that Fiero owners are extremely frugal, some of the most frugal I've ever come across in car culture. Not that its a bad thing in the grand scheme of things taking into account the type of car a Fiero is, BUT there are some crazy expectations aka a turbo setup for $500-1000 hence my remark. How does handling any power in stock trim mean anything? A turbo setup would be the same unless it was pushing extreme amounts of airflow, just size up the turbo accordingly.
JDM = Japanese Domestic Market. It is cars/equipment manufactured for the sale in that market. The USDM Civics were manufactured in Japan, just the same as the JDM ones were, but with different equipment made for a different region. There are also plenty of EDM which in many cases is a mix between the two.
I wouldn't call Fiero owners frugal necessarily. But Fieros are cheap cars. Spending $4K for a turbo kit for a car that you've only invested $500 in so far, is a huge stretch. Now, if it was a fully rebuilt Fiero that had all new suspension, and an engine swap that made respectable power with a respectable level of reliability, then a more expensive turbo kit wouldn't be so bad.
What exactly do you think the difference between the $4000 turbo systems, and the $1000 turbo systems is? The quality of intake and exhaust piping? Sure it might be better quality, but not significantly so. The huge difference in price is in the other components, such as the wastegate, BOV, and turbo itself. Would you really pay $4000 for a turbo system if it was a tiny turbo that only gave you an extra ~50 HP on a stock LSx that was already making 350-400 HP? Probably not. There are much cheaper ways to get 50 HP out of a stock LSx. Heck, GMPP sells a cam and tune that will give you almost 100 HP over stock on an LS3, and the most common LS3 based swap into the Fiero (and retrofit swap into muscle cars), is the LS376/480, which has the hot cam/tune which gives exactly 50 HP over a stock LS3.
There's more to a turbo setup than simply how much air it pushes. Quality Tial wastegate and BOV, and a quality turbo, is going to cost more than cheap copies that go into the cheap universal kits, or even the cheap bolt-ons for the Hondas. The Tial BOV and wastegate will be anywhere from $200-300 a piece, and mostly on the high end of that range. A very high quality turbo can be up to $4000 just by itself, as well. The cheap kits with small turbos are just that; cheap.
Quality parts, be they for a Fiero, an F-body, a Corvette, or a Honda, are not cheap. That goes for OEM replacement parts and aftermarket turbo kits. Yes there are cheap options available, and yes, some people buy them. You can buy cheap, or you can buy incredibly expensive, or anywhere in between. If you don't know what you're shopping for exactly, or what you're doing, or what to look for, then you're going to get screwed no matter which way you go. You don't have to get top shelf to have a reliable setup that does reasonably well for whatever engine you're putting it on, but you don't have to dive to the bottom of the barrel to get something at a reasonable cost, either.
Yes there are cheap options available, and yes, some people buy them. You can buy cheap, or you can buy incredibly expensive, or anywhere in between. If you don't know what you're shopping for exactly, or what you're doing, or what to look for, then you're going to get screwed no matter which way you go. You don't have to get top shelf to have a reliable setup that does reasonably well for whatever engine you're putting it on, but you don't have to dive to the bottom of the barrel to get something at a reasonable cost, either.
JDM = Japanese Domestic Market. It is cars/equipment manufactured for the sale in that market. The USDM Civics were manufactured in Japan, just the same as the JDM ones were, but with different equipment made for a different region. There are also plenty of EDM which in many cases is a mix between the two.
I wouldn't call Fiero owners frugal necessarily. But Fieros are cheap cars. Spending $4K for a turbo kit for a car that you've only invested $500 in so far, is a huge stretch. Now, if it was a fully rebuilt Fiero that had all new suspension, and an engine swap that made respectable power with a respectable level of reliability, then a more expensive turbo kit wouldn't be so bad.
What exactly do you think the difference between the $4000 turbo systems, and the $1000 turbo systems is? The quality of intake and exhaust piping? Sure it might be better quality, but not significantly so. The huge difference in price is in the other components, such as the wastegate, BOV, and turbo itself. Would you really pay $4000 for a turbo system if it was a tiny turbo that only gave you an extra ~50 HP on a stock LSx that was already making 350-400 HP? Probably not. There are much cheaper ways to get 50 HP out of a stock LSx. Heck, GMPP sells a cam and tune that will give you almost 100 HP over stock on an LS3, and the most common LS3 based swap into the Fiero (and retrofit swap into muscle cars), is the LS376/480, which has the hot cam/tune which gives exactly 50 HP over a stock LS3.
There's more to a turbo setup than simply how much air it pushes. Quality Tial wastegate and BOV, and a quality turbo, is going to cost more than cheap copies that go into the cheap universal kits, or even the cheap bolt-ons for the Hondas. The Tial BOV and wastegate will be anywhere from $200-300 a piece, and mostly on the high end of that range. A very high quality turbo can be up to $4000 just by itself, as well. The cheap kits with small turbos are just that; cheap.
Quality parts, be they for a Fiero, an F-body, a Corvette, or a Honda, are not cheap. That goes for OEM replacement parts and aftermarket turbo kits. Yes there are cheap options available, and yes, some people buy them. You can buy cheap, or you can buy incredibly expensive, or anywhere in between. If you don't know what you're shopping for exactly, or what you're doing, or what to look for, then you're going to get screwed no matter which way you go. You don't have to get top shelf to have a reliable setup that does reasonably well for whatever engine you're putting it on, but you don't have to dive to the bottom of the barrel to get something at a reasonable cost, either.
Agreed. What I was suggesting was... *IF* there really was a documented way to get a half decent/reliable turbo setup in a 2.8 on the cheap, there would be millions of threads on it. I don't necessarily subscribe to "if its made in china its **** ". I have bought plenty of crappy domestically made items as well.
There's more to a turbo setup than simply how much air it pushes. Quality Tial wastegate and BOV, and a quality turbo, is going to cost more than cheap copies that go into the cheap universal kits, or even the cheap bolt-ons for the Hondas. The Tial BOV and wastegate will be anywhere from $200-300 a piece, and mostly on the high end of that range. A very high quality turbo can be up to $4000 just by itself, as well. The cheap kits with small turbos are just that; cheap.
Of course, IMO anyone piecing together a turbo setup or purchasing a ready made kit should be buying a name brand wastegate and BOV, those expenses remain constant along with the IC and plumbing. What adds more to the cost is the hotside and mainly the turbo. Anyone who runs ebay wastegates and BOVs is asking for trouble. You can get away with the IC and plumbing, as well as the turbos for short amounts of time- but its all relative.
Like my initial point was though, look at that guy who tried to provide us with his ebay turbo setup and fabbed up hotside. Most of the stuff was crap and had to be thrown out and remade, and that was a $1000+ kit. So you can imagine why I made the comment that I did, considering someone would expect a working setup for up to $500 less than that
Originally posted by nitroheadz28: Of course, IMO anyone piecing together a turbo setup or purchasing a ready made kit should be buying a name brand wastegate and BOV, those expenses remain constant along with the IC and plumbing. What adds more to the cost is the hotside and mainly the turbo. Anyone who runs ebay wastegates and BOVs is asking for trouble. You can get away with the IC and plumbing, as well as the turbos for short amounts of time- but its all relative.
Like my initial point was though, look at that guy who tried to provide us with his ebay turbo setup and fabbed up hotside. Most of the stuff was crap and had to be thrown out and remade, and that was a $1000+ kit. So you can imagine why I made the comment that I did, considering someone would expect a working setup for up to $500 less than that
eBay isn't a parts manufacturer. Saying "ebay wastegates, BOVs, or turbos" is nonsense, as there are both cheap crap and very expensive name brand parts listed on eBay. The buyer just needs to learn how to sort the good from the bad. The prices I mentioned in my previous post were all found by looking at listings on eBay for the parts in question.
I don't know who you were talking about or what cheap crap he tried to offer as a turbo kit. But I see no valid reason why a cheap low-boost application turbo kit couldn't be made for the Fiero 2.8, and sold for $1000 or less. It would certainly be difficult for a one-man operation to do by trying to piece together something at retail cost or even with the cheap parts that can be found on eBay or elsewhere. But there's no reason the companies that do make reliable and cheap kits for the Civic and similar cars couldn't also produce a similar setup for a Fiero. The reason there isn't one already, is that almost nobody will buy it. You'll get people who'll say they'll buy it, but nobody will put up the money up front to get it done, and when the time comes to make a purchase, they won't follow through. It's not just turbo kits. It's the same thing that's happened with plenty of other parts people wanted to make for the Fiero. And then there's the 3800 swap. For about the same amount of money as a bolt-on turbo kit, you can just swap in a 3800, and end up with almost 100 HP more than the 2.8, and you'll get better gas mileage.
Sad thing is I would realy like to turbo my GT and even have a nice little Auti TT turbo and cooler. The only thing that really stopped me was something no one has brought up. Tuning, I was told it cost around $1000 to tune a turbo after the install. So even if you could build a kit for $1000 by the time you add in the shop tuning time, $1000, it seams like for 50+ hp you could just put a bigger motor in the car. I'm not saying to do that cause I love the turbo sound and if someone made a budget kit or knew how to get tuning done cheap I would build one for sure.
Tuning held me back for a while too. It's not $1000 tough. Get a 7730, an ostrich, 2 or 3 bar sensor, and any laptop and you're good to go.
As for cheap, you can't beat my setup. Evo8 turbo for $250, wastegate and blowoff fro ebay which have proved to be reliable thus far (2 years) no intercooler, did the piping out of sched 40 mild steel, and at 8-10psi it kicks ass on my 3.4. No comparasin to n/a.
$1000 in tuning is more like a maximum... IE, show up at the dyno shop with your car on a trailer and a map full of zeroes and you'll be down for a G or more of tuning.
Tuning held me back for a while too. It's not $1000 tough. Get a 7730, an ostrich, 2 or 3 bar sensor, and any laptop and you're good to go.
As for cheap, you can't beat my setup. Evo8 turbo for $250, wastegate and blowoff fro ebay which have proved to be reliable thus far (2 years) no intercooler, did the piping out of sched 40 mild steel, and at 8-10psi it kicks ass on my 3.4. No comparasin to n/a.
So, it can be done on the cheap. My car is proof.
I'd estimate $1000 plus a bunch of time. Chay
Ok I am a noob on cars but have been a motorcycle mechanic most of my life. I don't know a lot about tuning. Can you give more info and what I should search or where to get the parts you just posted?
Tuning held me back for a while too. It's not $1000 tough. Get a 7730, an ostrich, 2 or 3 bar sensor, and any laptop and you're good to go.
As for cheap, you can't beat my setup. Evo8 turbo for $250, wastegate and blowoff fro ebay which have proved to be reliable thus far (2 years) no intercooler, did the piping out of sched 40 mild steel, and at 8-10psi it kicks ass on my 3.4. No comparasin to n/a.
So, it can be done on the cheap. My car is proof.
I'd estimate $1000 plus a bunch of time. Chay
Can you ride the ostrich to the local parts store when you realize you are missing something
The ostrich II is a prom emulator...it plugs into the ecm via an adapter (G2 if i remember right). Both these items are available from Moates.net. when you have your tune locked down, you can have the code burnt to a chip, and use the ostrich on your next project car.
From there you just need a laptop running tunerpro, and choose a code mask. Some of the more popular are the turbo grand prix code, or $59 code (code59.org) for boosted apps, $88 which i think is a tpi V8 code from camaro. Choose what is most similar to your application.
Almost mandatory, a wideband oxygen sensor to help tune. Optional, but a good option is a exhaust temp sensor (EGT). the zeitronix is the best unit for value that I have found...it contains a data recorder built in....pretty cool.
From there, just start rich, and tune, after reading a bunch on how to do it. There is lots of info on the web about that.
The 1227730 was a staple ecm in the 2800/3100 Corsica/Lumina/Grand Am/Cutlass supreme for years. they were also used in V8s, but get one form a V6 so your chipset will be right for the knock sensor etc.
People seem to talk down easier than they can talk up. I too am building a turbo setup (twin) for an engine that is going in my Fiero. Sizing turbos is a subject that has a very steep learning curve. One safe way to get in the neighborhood is find a car that has similar engine size, vehicle weight, and horsepower that you want. Find a used one. They are quite easy to rebuild. You won't get into too much trouble that way. And you can save a lot of money.
Fiero owners are, for the most part cheap. That's because they are dealing with old cheap cars, so the idea of paying more than they paid for the car for a mod seems incongruous.
I don't think I have ever seen a good result form one of these "I got it cheap on Ebay' turbo conversions. Most end up half finished or abandoned because they don't run properly, or blown up because they do run long enough to do that.
The generic turbos can be cheap Chinese knock offs with bearings that last a few weeks. Most are not properly specced for the engine they are sold for (people always seem to go much bigger than necessary in hope of high power numbers and give no thought to engine flexibility). Many are defeated by insufficient knowledge.
I'm not saying that someone with sufficient knowledge couldn't carefully accumulate the necessary parts to do a proper turbo install but the chances are against it for most owners who aren't experts.
Turbos are great on Fiero V6 engines - they take the place of having an engine with decent flow in the first place! But do it right or don't bother. I think Design 1 still sells a kit and maybe there are some others out there. In the long run even if you have to pay his $3K price (which isn't bad these days - the kit is very good), it may well be cheaper in the long run than fumbling in the dark with ebay crap.
FWIW I run a V6 with 11 psi of boost and it has been very reliable for the last 20 years!
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oh this thread will end the way many other high mileage 2.8 "I wana turbo this" threads have gone.... *waits for the first person to mention what he 'should' do*
. Maybe one of the sensitive cheapskates who negged me can try selling these $1000 turbo setups and see how far they get, that guy boostexhaust (or whatever his name was) ring a bell? 
