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sbc vs 3800 sc vs 3800 turbo by Edhurl
Started on: 08-25-2013 05:25 PM
Replies: 35 (1678 views)
Last post by: jaredmurray88 on 09-05-2013 09:49 AM
Edhurl
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Report this Post08-25-2013 05:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for EdhurlClick Here to Email EdhurlSend a Private Message to EdhurlEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I know it's been beatin to death on which is better.m my question is what is the price difference between them? I know it can vary, so maybe an average of each. thanks and please keep it on topic.....
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Report this Post08-26-2013 03:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MaxCubesClick Here to Email MaxCubesSend a Private Message to MaxCubesEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
OK... Ill go first...

Initially the SBC will be more expensive....with all the adapters needed to make on fit in a Fiero.

But after that.... performance upgrades for the SBC are cheaper (heads, cam ,headers, pistons, etc.)

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olejoedad
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Report this Post08-26-2013 07:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
sbc - no
LS - yes
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VF1Skullangel
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Report this Post08-26-2013 07:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for VF1SkullangelClick Here to visit VF1Skullangel's HomePageClick Here to Email VF1SkullangelSend a Private Message to VF1SkullangelEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
3800's are typically cheap.

The small block depends.
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Report this Post08-26-2013 08:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sco77Click Here to Email sco77Send a Private Message to sco77Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
3800 turbo would be the best bang for the buck.

------------------
86 Fiero GT 4spd - L67 swap: VS cam, GenV. Needs exhaust (ETA 9/13) Build Progress
98 GTP - Some mods

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dratts
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Report this Post08-26-2013 11:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for drattsClick Here to Email drattsSend a Private Message to drattsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well, Maxcubes partially answered the question. Some just jumped in and offered their bias. I wish that I could give you a definitive answer, but I have my preferences too and money wasn't the determining factor for me. Anyway good luck in your endeavor. There are so many options out there that you should be able to reach your goal. I hope that you can get some more definitive answers. You asked a good question.
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Report this Post08-26-2013 12:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Turbo 3800 is the only way.

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Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.17@132.6

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fieroguru
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Report this Post08-26-2013 12:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It all depends on what you want to build, how you want to build it (used parts, all new top of the line parts), your skills and if you are going to pay someone to do the work.

All three swaps have been done for less than $1500 using used parts and doing the work themselves, and others have spent $10K+ doing the swaps with newer/better/more expensive parts and/or paying someone else to do the swap, then there is a huge number of people in between those two extremes.

Depending on what you are looking for in a swap, you might also want to consider the LS4/4T65e-hd.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-26-2013).]

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dobey
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Report this Post08-26-2013 01:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Turbo inline 5 cylinder out of a Colorado/Canyon.
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Report this Post08-26-2013 02:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for EdhurlClick Here to Email EdhurlSend a Private Message to EdhurlEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
after doing some research and falling into a good deal I'm going with an sbc. I tried nice before but ran into some financial crap and sold it all s couple years ago. now to start looking for another 327!
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Report this Post08-26-2013 02:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for diabloroadsterSend a Private Message to diabloroadsterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The answer is going depend alot on what transmission your going to use.....
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Report this Post08-26-2013 03:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by diabloroadster:

The answer is going depend alot on what transmission your going to use.....


It's a Fiero. If you're making > 300 BHP, then pretty much any available transmission is not rated for it.
Whether you blow the transmission though, is going to depend a little more on how it's driven, because it's very easy to make more power than any of the transmissions are built to handle in stock form, with any of the engine options.
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Report this Post08-26-2013 03:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DimeMachineSend a Private Message to DimeMachineEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


It's a Fiero. If you're making > 300 BHP, then pretty much any available transmission is not rated for it.
Whether you blow the transmission though, is going to depend a little more on how it's driven, because it's very easy to make more power than any of the transmissions are built to handle in stock form, with any of the engine options.


I researched this a couple years ago before making the decision to to with a 3800SC. My conclusion was the only relatively cheap tranny that will hold up to daily pounding with 300+ HP is the 4t65HD. Am I wrong? Is there a tranny that will be relatively cheap and hold up to beating the tar out of it with a V8?
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Report this Post08-26-2013 05:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DimeMachine:
I researched this a couple years ago before making the decision to to with a 3800SC. My conclusion was the only relatively cheap tranny that will hold up to daily pounding with 300+ HP is the 4t65HD. Am I wrong? Is there a tranny that will be relatively cheap and hold up to beating the tar out of it with a V8?


The 4t65e-HD and 4t80 are probably the best bets for a 4 speed auto, depending on which engine you're using. But you're going to need to build them up if you want to beat on them and have them handle power. Even some of the stock engines that come bolted to them make more than enough power to burn them up, depending on how they're driven; especially in the 4000 lbs cars they come in.

For manuals, the 4 speed Muncie isn't too bad, but will suck for fuel economy. There are plenty of people running the 5 speed Getrag behind a 3800 or V8 as well, and then there's the F23, which is going to be a little costlier. They've all got their limits as well, and can be broken even with the stock engines they come mated with, depending on how it's driven.

They're all going to survive a little more in a Fiero, than they would in a big Buick. If you're trying to do a swap cheap though, don't expect you won't have any problems when you get it finished. If you're going to make due with cheap or used parts, then be prepared for them to fail, particularly when you have no idea what their history might be.
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Report this Post08-26-2013 06:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Edhurl:

after doing some research and falling into a good deal I'm going with an sbc. I tried nice before but ran into some financial crap and sold it all s couple years ago. now to start looking for another 327!


/thread

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.17@132.6

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Arns85GT
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Report this Post08-26-2013 06:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTClick Here to Email Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You didn't say if you have an auto or stick. There are differences fo sho

You should start with the tranny choice. Then figure your engine and the HP that the tranny will handle.

If it is a stick, I can tell you that a Centerforce II will NOT HOLD a carb'd 4.9 that makes north of 275 ftlbs and 220 hp. (yes the carb definitely puts out more than the OE fi.)

You also need to consider an upgrade on the torque converter if you are doing auto.

Arn
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j bf1
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Report this Post08-26-2013 07:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for j bf1Click Here to Email j bf1Send a Private Message to j bf1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I was in the same boat you're in....check this out.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/129695.html

------------------
~John

'88 GT 5spd White/Beechwood
'00 Corvette vert. 6spd Yellow/Black
'05 Colorado Xtreme Black/Graphite

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Report this Post08-27-2013 03:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MaxCubesClick Here to Email MaxCubesSend a Private Message to MaxCubesEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
3800SC will be cheaper and easier to install versus the 3800 turbo

3800's already come supercharged.. factory

3800 turbo will require more fabrication and tuning

The 3800 turbo will have the upper hand in high end horsepower

The 3800SC will have more low end boost without lag

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MaxCubes
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Report this Post08-27-2013 03:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MaxCubesClick Here to Email MaxCubesSend a Private Message to MaxCubesEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
remarks are based on the original question...

 
quote
Originally posted by Edhurl:

...my question is what is the price difference between them? .....

[This message has been edited by MaxCubes (edited 08-27-2013).]

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Report this Post08-27-2013 09:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by MaxCubes:
3800SC will be cheaper and easier to install versus the 3800 turbo

3800 turbo will require more fabrication and tuning

The 3800 turbo will have the upper hand in high end horsepower

The 3800SC will have more low end boost without lag


Myths. A 3800SC itself will be cheaper, but not necessarily easier than a 3800 with turbo. You'll have to fab at least some exhaust either way, and change the intake piping, either way, and adding a turbo (or even simply fabbing with the intent of adding one later), is not a significantly greater amount of work to do.

A turbo can be tuned to make its boost in the low end as well. It is merely a matter of selecting the right turbo to do it, and tuning it properly to do so.

And depending on what you want out of the swap, either a 3800SC or a 3800+turbo will require significant amounts of tuning work. It is a matter of choice and perspective. If you want ~200-240 whp on a dyno, then there is not a lot of tuning one must do, even with a 3800 NA. If you want 300-400 whp on the dyno, then there is going to be a lot more work you're going to have to do, regardless of whether you are going with an SC or turbo. And if you want to make lots more HP than that, you're going to have to do even more work.

It's simply a matter of how much power you wish to make with the engine and how much money you want to spend on it. Going turbo will be more expensive, but can also get you a larger power increase with less work. It's a trade-off that must be decided on by the person doing the swap.
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dratts
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Report this Post08-27-2013 10:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for drattsClick Here to Email drattsSend a Private Message to drattsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Edhurl:

after doing some research and falling into a good deal I'm going with an sbc. I tried nice before but ran into some financial crap and sold it all s couple years ago. now to start looking for another 327!


I know that the original question was about price, but if you're thinking 327 you might want to take a look at the ls4 (325). 300 hp stock which is plenty in a Fiero. It comes with the 4t65e hd and I believe that a 300m input shaft would make it reliable. I only went with the turbo in order to match the hp of the car I am replicating and it is overkill.
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Report this Post08-27-2013 12:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by MaxCubes:

3800SC will be cheaper and easier to install versus the 3800 turbo

3800's already come supercharged.. factory

3800 turbo will require more fabrication and tuning

The 3800 turbo will have the upper hand in high end horsepower

The 3800SC will have more low end boost without lag


As the owner of many different turbo 3800s, each with increasingly larger turbos, I have still yet to find out what "lag" is and "high end horsepower" is compared to a supercharged car.
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Report this Post08-27-2013 01:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BMFBClick Here to Email BMFBSend a Private Message to BMFBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
oh you know what lag is
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Report this Post08-27-2013 01:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:


As the owner of many different turbo 3800s, each with increasingly larger turbos, I have still yet to find out what "lag" is and "high end horsepower" is compared to a supercharged car.


Lag is like how it takes you 60-100 feet to make more than 200hp.

The high end horsepower is 800hp on the high end with a turbo versus 400hp on the high end with the m90 supercharger.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
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darkhorizon
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Report this Post08-27-2013 06:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Justinbart:


Lag is like how it takes you 60-100 feet to make more than 200hp.

The high end horsepower is 800hp on the high end with a turbo versus 400hp on the high end with the m90 supercharger.



By choice.
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Report this Post08-28-2013 12:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FFIEROFREDClick Here to Email FFIEROFREDSend a Private Message to FFIEROFREDEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The best 1st step to finding your anser is to ride in, or drive one of each. Not just how "fast" it feels. How loud is it, inside? How loud is it out side? Stick or auto? Will it put a big grin on you face 2 years later? Can you live with it? can you afford all the supporting stuff to go with that much power?
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Report this Post09-02-2013 06:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MaxCubesClick Here to Email MaxCubesSend a Private Message to MaxCubesEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:


As the owner of many different turbo 3800s, each with increasingly larger turbos, I have still yet to find out what "lag" is and "high end horsepower" is compared to a supercharged car.


your ego blinds your sense of reality... The larger the turbo, the longer the lag time if installed on the same engine.
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Report this Post09-02-2013 09:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for LoW_KeYSend a Private Message to LoW_KeYEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Turbo lag is so minimal now days. I don't know on 3800"s that well but when I rode in a turbo monte 3800 I was in back seat and about screamed... second encounter with turbo... I was expecting lag and nope! From what I always been told depends on turbo size and configuration. On my SS it might be like a half a second in first then afterwards no lag. I've seen the 60 foots on these turbo fiero guys....

Lag was a thing of the past its so much more refined....

To be on tracl all depends what you want and always over price your final costs

I'm honestly happy with mine (300whp/400wtq) but I can say I'm ready for more.. being turbo.. just as any motor can be upgraded.
------------------

3800 SC/IC Formula whines more than your girl...
08 Cobalt SS TC - ZZP tuned, K&N SRI, 6k HID's 13.31@107
07 HHR - Wifes (tried to have her get the SS)

[This message has been edited by LoW_KeY (edited 09-02-2013).]

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Report this Post09-03-2013 02:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
All I can add is that a Fiero automatic...no matter how you beef it up...will not take a V8. I never even raced mine and blew out 3 trans in 4000 miles simply cruising on the freeway. They all went from driving fine to slipping in lower and lower gears till they wouldnt move at all. When I took it anywhere, I tried to pick places all uphill so it would coast home, or kept my wrecker service number handy on the dash. I took it to maybe 1/2 dozen shows, 3 of which it came back on a flatbed.
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Report this Post09-03-2013 05:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for drattsClick Here to Email drattsSend a Private Message to drattsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There are guys with 3800s putting down 600 hp. Why would a 600 hp V8 be any different? All the ten second Fieros are using the 4t65e hd aren't they? I'll admit that I haven't solved my input shaft situation yet, but there is no better transmission that I know of, unless it's one of those tornado/Cadillac transmissions.
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Report this Post09-03-2013 07:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dratts:

There are guys with 3800s putting down 600 hp. Why would a 600 hp V8 be any different? All the ten second Fieros are using the 4t65e hd aren't they? I'll admit that I haven't solved my input shaft situation yet, but there is no better transmission that I know of, unless it's one of those tornado/Cadillac transmissions.


I think roger was talking about the TH125 3 speed, not the 4t65e. And the 3800 making that much power with a 4t65 also has a pretty well built up transmission to handle it. It's not a stock trans. Just the same as the 4t65 behind the 427 LS motor in Don Kraus's car was heavily built.
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Report this Post09-03-2013 10:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here is my advice, if you want an L67. Find a nice, low mileage one and install it. Dont do anything to it. Install and enjoy. It tends to go a bit sideways once you start modding them. Atleast in my experience.
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Report this Post09-04-2013 04:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes the only STOCK Fiero auto is the TH125. Others are all better. Not knowing the specs like some specheads would, Im guessing its not HP that kills a trans, its the torque. Im just taking a guess V8s generally put out a lot more torque than any V6 if theyre both built comparatively.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 09-04-2013).]

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Report this Post09-04-2013 05:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
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Report this Post09-05-2013 05:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SteelSend a Private Message to SteelEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Justinbart:


/thread



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Report this Post09-05-2013 09:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaredmurray88Click Here to Email jaredmurray88Send a Private Message to jaredmurray88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well its time I throw in my .02 If I had to do this whole dance all over again I would have invested the following differently:
1. saved up the extra dough and bought the 88 formula v6 that was mint sitting next to my 86 value leader
2. gone with a 3800 s/c instead of a v8 and maybe my car would be done by now
3. invested the time to learn the ins and outs of FI and how to tune them on a computer
4. pooped my pants in the driver seat instead sitting in the poor house half a decade later and not even half way there.
But I love the rumble and appeal of a 350. Next car (if I ever decide to do so) will be a wingless fastback with a 3800 s/c mated to a manually controlled auto and all the trimmings lol
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