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Surprised not many Ecotec 2.0 turbo swaps builds on here by j bf1
Started on: 08-10-2013 11:26 PM
Replies: 185 (10898 views)
Last post by: Will on 08-03-2014 12:09 PM
LoW_KeY
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Report this Post08-29-2013 07:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LoW_KeYSend a Private Message to LoW_KeYEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by j bf1:
Is that in a fiero???


No in my balt sorry to bum ya they clean up easy think it'd look at home in fiero...
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akademikjeanius
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Report this Post09-03-2013 02:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for akademikjeaniusSend a Private Message to akademikjeaniusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
FYI: Found someone who modifies the existing harness and reprogs ECM to delete BCM entirely from the equation, allowing normal operation as a "standalone" arrangement.
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Report this Post09-03-2013 08:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for nitroheadz28Send a Private Message to nitroheadz28Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by akademikjeanius:

FYI: Found someone who modifies the existing harness and reprogs ECM to delete BCM entirely from the equation, allowing normal operation as a "standalone" arrangement.


Now this could be a winner, any details?
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akademikjeanius
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Report this Post09-03-2013 09:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for akademikjeaniusSend a Private Message to akademikjeaniusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by nitroheadz28:


Now this could be a winner, any details?


ECM reprog source has been confirmed and is done by a VERY reliable and well-known tuner. The harness mod is still a work in progress as that same tuner recommended two different vendors, neither of which I've gotten in contact w/ as of yet. Details as soon as I have completed research.
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akademikjeanius
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Report this Post09-05-2013 05:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for akademikjeaniusSend a Private Message to akademikjeaniusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here's the final tally resulting from dialog between myself and one of the two harness modifying companies recommended to me by the ECM tuning company:

 
quote
Newer engines includes all the Ecotecs from 2006 and newer. The LNF's were in some American cars from 2007 to 2010. The best way to save money is to find one still in the wreaked car so you can get most all the parts from the same car. You would need the engine, engine wiring harness, the 56 pin ECM connector that goes to the Body harness(cut about 2 foot from the connector with 2 connectors on it that connect back to the engine harness), The ECM, the Mass Air Flow Sensor, The MAP sensor from the intercooler piping, The Throttle Pedal with the connector and about 6 inches of wire, The Fuel tank wiring harness, The fuel pump If it can be made to fit in your tank ( if not you would need an external pump that would maintain 58 to 68 psi pressure, and Exhaust downpipe and turbo elbow with O2 sensor. If you get just the engine you still would have many parts to buy.

When we rebuild a harness to be put in a car, it includes a fuse and relay panel, low and high speed fan circuits, wiring for the throttle pedal and fuel pump, OBD2 connector, ing switch, Dual Aeroforce gauges that shows over 60 funtions ( even HP ), the trifecta tune, and the interface cable to do datalogs.

You would have to give us measurements from the transmission side of the engine which is where the ECM will mount to where you want the fuse and relay panel to mount, to the throttle pedal, to the fuel tank or where the pump will mount, to the dash where you want to mount the 2 gauges and the OBD2 connector, and where the battery will mount. It would be a plug and play harness. The Trifecta Tune would be already loaded in the ECM.

The cost is $ 2850.00

Thanks,

Chuck


WAAAAAAAAAAY overpriced in my opinion...

[This message has been edited by akademikjeanius (edited 09-05-2013).]

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nitroheadz28
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Report this Post09-05-2013 11:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for nitroheadz28Send a Private Message to nitroheadz28Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
$2850
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Will
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Report this Post09-05-2013 12:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by akademikjeanius:

Here's the final tally resulting from dialog between myself and one of the two harness modifying companies recommended to me by the ECM tuning company:


WAAAAAAAAAAY overpriced in my opinion...



I've exchanged emails with Trifecta. They said they can set up stand-alone tunes for direct injection engines. That was enough for me.

In a Fiero, you're FAR better off doing your own wiring, as the relative locations of components and connections are very different in the Fiero than in any front engine car.
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akademikjeanius
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Report this Post09-05-2013 04:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for akademikjeaniusSend a Private Message to akademikjeaniusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


I've exchanged emails with Trifecta. They said they can set up stand-alone tunes for direct injection engines. That was enough for me.

In a Fiero, you're FAR better off doing your own wiring, as the relative locations of components and connections are very different in the Fiero than in any front engine car.


Yea, Trifecta was who I spoke w/ about tunes as well. One of their's is also who suggested I speak w/ the aforementioned harness modifier.

The trick in deleting the BCM, I read, is that some of it's wiring must be retained, even w/ BCM being deleted. Also, as you said, the measurements in a Fiero need to be taken into account, which might be just a matter of properly lengthening all the wiring accordingly. A new swap setup w/ a learning curve like any other but doesn't seem insurmountable. Just wondering who's going to end up being first to take plunge....
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akademikjeanius
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Report this Post09-19-2013 12:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for akademikjeaniusSend a Private Message to akademikjeaniusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here are some email transcripts between the one overpriced harness fabricator and myself, from earliest to latest:

 
quote

From: Chuck
To: Kemo A'akhutera
Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2013 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [SR6733-hfM] LNF bcm delete

Hey Kemo,

When I said newer engines, it includes all the Ecotecs from 2006 and newer. The LNF's were in some American cars from 2007 to 2010. The best way to save money is to find one still in the wreaked car so you can get most all the parts from the same car. You would need the engine, engine wiring harness, the 56 pin ECM connector that goes to the Body harness(cut about 2 foot from the connector with 2 connectors on it that connect back to the engine harness), The ECM, the Mass Air Flow Sensor, The MAP sensor from the intercooler piping, The Throttle Pedal with the connector and about 6 inches of wire, The Fuel tank wiring harness, The fuel pump If it can be made to fit in your tank ( if not you would need an external pump that would maintain 58 to 68 psi pressure, and Exhaust downpipe and turbo elbow with O2 sensor. If you get just the engine you still would have many parts to buy.

When we rebuild a harness to be put in a car, it includes a fuse and relay panel, low and high speed fan circuits, wiring for the throttle pedal and fuel pump, OBD2 connector, ing switch, Dual Aeroforce gauges that shows over 60 funtions ( even HP ), the trifecta tune, and the interface cable to do datalogs.

You would have to give us measurements from the transmission side of the engine which is where the ECM will mount to where you want the fuse and relay panel to mount, to the throttle pedal, to the fuel tank or where the pump will mount, to the dash where you want to mount the 2 gauges and the OBD2 connector, and where the battery will mount. It would be a plug and play harness. The Trifecta Tune would be already loaded in the ECM.

The cost is $ 2850.00

Thanks, Chuck

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From: Kemo
Sent: Sep 12, 2013 5:47 PM
To: Chuck
Subject: Re: Fw: [SR6733-hfM] LNF bcm delete

Chuck,

Please forgive my delayed response. Dealing w/ closing on a house, amongst a gazillion other things, and just hadn't gotten a chance to sit down and respond to your last messages.

Thanks for breakdown on what parts to keep and also what goes into the building of your harnesses.

My first thought was this was very pricey for just a harness redo, especially considering that I'd be supplying the harness. I shared it w/ fellow Fiero enthusiasts and the consensus was the same. We do the Series II 3800 S/C engine swaps into our cars and a high end modded harness is $400 so imagine reaction when I said $2,850 for your LNF equivalent. Someone asked if it came w/ a free engine/transmission combo.


If more people get into swapping these onto air-boats (or anything else for that matter), driving prices down, I'll be first in line. Until then, this is WAY beyond my price range to the point where it'd be much better to just get whole car setup, keep the BCM intact as well as harness unaltered and turn off all the accessories that I don't transplant into Fiero.

I'll will certainly be in touch and watching for price changes. Please update me proactively for any changes to cost that you extend to public.


Regards,

Kémo
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From: Chuck
To: Kemo
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [SR6733-hfM] LNF bcm delete

Hey Kemo. I am sorry the price was on the high side. Our price includes more than a harness redo. It included the Trifecta Tune, 400.00. The dual aeroforce gauges, 450.00, The new fuse and relay Panel, 150.00. The Trifecta interface cable to do datalogs and load updates, 200.00. The stage 1 Map Sensors to gain 30 HP, Cost 450.00. The MAF Sensor and weld bung, and connectors to make it Plug and Play. It also includes reading your datalogs to see if the tune can be improved.

Tomorrow I will send you some pictures of a harness we done for Steve Brown's race car. I don't have them in this computer.

Thanks, Chuck
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From: Kemo A'akhutera
To: Chuck
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [SR6733-hfM] LNF bcm delete
Hey Chuck,

All of those things, while most likely necessary for your crowd, seem to be bells and whistles for ours (Fiero enthusiast). We don't need dual Aeroforce gauges because, unlike airboats surrounded by water, we can bring our netbooks/laptops to do any and any reading/tuning (we already do this w/ stock and other swapped engine setups). We don't need the Trifecta interface cable as most of us already own OBD2 ALDL-to-USB cables. We don't need the stage 1 Map Sensor upgrade as that's a performance enhancement and we're just concerned w/ successfully completing the first swap, with upgrades to come later. The fuse and relay panel is questionable since, again, we're not sticking it on a clean-slate airboat and will most likely pull the OEM panel from donor car but it's not a hefty expense so would probably just include it. Besides that, it's really it's just the tune and modded harness that we need.

Looking forward to those pictures of harness for your friend's race car.


Thanks again,

Kémo
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nitroheadz28
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Report this Post09-19-2013 02:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nitroheadz28Send a Private Message to nitroheadz28Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So $1650 for all that crap, most of which is unnecessary apart from the tune I suppose. That leaves another $1200 for the actual built harness and associated things, still a pretty penny.

I know its not a rip off because I've seen how much others charge for new harnesses, but its up there. Hopefully we can keep making progress so these swaps become more affordable and common.
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Report this Post09-19-2013 02:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hiwil88formulaSend a Private Message to hiwil88formulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My bud is on the hunt for a LNF donor car, soon as we find it it will be going into the 88 coupe or formula he has. So hopefully soon, im kinda excited to try it out.

Hywel
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Report this Post09-19-2013 03:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for akademikjeaniusSend a Private Message to akademikjeaniusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by nitroheadz28:

So $1650 for all that crap, most of which is unnecessary apart from the tune I suppose. That leaves another $1200 for the actual built harness and associated things, still a pretty penny.

I know its not a rip off because I've seen how much others charge for new harnesses, but its up there. Hopefully we can keep making progress so these swaps become more affordable and common.


The way I thought about it was if someone did bite the bullet on that and get a barebones setup (base BCM-less tune and custom harness w/ optional fuse/relay box) from this guy, reverse engineering, thus, cost reduction, would be what follows for all those who came after. It'd still be substantially less than R&D cost (financial and chronological) incurred, even one person doing it all themselves. So $1,200 is cheap tuition, in a sense, w/ a finish product to show for it. It's always been those few pioneers who paid the most in blood, sweat, tears, & bounced checks (lol). They are swap-martyrs, giving ultimate automotive sacrifice so that we may have near turn-key kits and/or instructions for our own swaps. Amen....
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Report this Post09-19-2013 03:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for akademikjeaniusSend a Private Message to akademikjeaniusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

akademikjeanius

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quote
Originally posted by hiwil88formula:

My bud is on the hunt for a LNF donor car, soon as we find it it will be going into the 88 coupe or formula he has. So hopefully soon, im kinda excited to try it out.

Hywel


Definitely looking forward to hear how that turns out. Pleas keep us posted.
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Report this Post09-19-2013 07:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for j bf1Send a Private Message to j bf1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

[This message has been edited by j bf1 (edited 09-19-2013).]

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Report this Post07-17-2014 12:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for White 84 SESend a Private Message to White 84 SEEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Too much to swap. The transmission does not fit, the electronics are different. Would need to somehow fabricate a cradle fitting solution. Most dudes are swapping just engines with new related electronics for instance the later model v6 for Duke 4 banger. That has the unique FIERO intake plenum which is nice. The 3800 gets more power for the same money in that situation for those who want more power or are attracted to $$ for effort over appearances. The parts interchange lack is probably keeping swappers away.
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Report this Post07-17-2014 01:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The F23 swap has been developed for other engines, so using the F23 swap hardware with an Ecotec shouldn't be hard. That still uses the stock Fiero manual transmission axles.

The rest of it doesn't look any worse than a Q4 swap.
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Report this Post07-18-2014 12:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
OK; Pushrods vs DOHC-4V. Show me a car that can out-perform a C-5/C-6 Vette AND get better MPG....You CAN'T! The pushrod engine came about as a way of simplfying and cutting cost for production engines- what makes it more efficient than a 4V is called Quench; The ability to impart turbulence to the mixture just before ignition...and also the ability to transfer heat from the piston to the (Water-cooled) head.
If you compare an LS V-8 to the Modern Nissan V-6, the LS is narrower lower, lighter, less costly, easier to package and uses less gas for more HP. As for comparing these large NA PR engines to 4V-turbos- yes, you can get massive HP from the little engines, and they are fine for drag racing, But I like to have good throttle response, and even modern turbos still have lag......The only way around it is to add a hybrid motor that kicks in until the turbo gets there.
You can get an LS1 cheap, then spend a little to bump the output to above 400, and it weighs the same as the 2.8. You can get a 3500/3900 with VVT- 210-240 hp but 90% of the torque from 1500-5500, and those engines are approx 50 lbs lighter than a 2.8.

And the weight thing is sort of like the fire myth- Which would you rather be in during an accident- a Honda(Any), a Toypet or a Fiero? Go look at the doors and structure of those 1st gen MR2s. My 85 V6 weighs 2600 and has 200 lb/ft of torque at 2800- it ain't much above 100 but 0-30 it's damn fast. The 2nd gen MR2s that were comparable in size to a Fiero weigh the same as a Fiero- Toyota was advancing fast, eh?
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Report this Post07-18-2014 04:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LunaticSend a Private Message to LunaticEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by j bf1:

Can somebody please explain, why aren't more of you guys using Ecotec? A bone stock Ecotec 2.0 turbo has phenomenal performance 260 hp / 260 lb-ft torque + it is light weight..I also read that the motor can easily be pushed to well over 800 hp . To me it makes perfect sense....or am I missing something????? I think it was in an issue of Hot Rod Magazine.


I cannot speak on behalf of other forum members but I've decided to install the L61 Ecotec into my 84. I'll be running the stock (for now) engine, F23 manual transmission, BCM (for future inputs, A/C etc), and PCM. I already have a V8 LS1 Formula Firebird and a GSXR 1100. So this car is just another toy. I'm not aiming for high horsepower, just some summer fun. Perhaps a turbo in the future, who knows.
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Report this Post07-18-2014 05:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:
But I like to have good throttle response, and even modern turbos still have lag......The only way around it is to add a hybrid motor that kicks in until the turbo gets there.
You can get a 3500/3900 with VVT- 210-240 hp but 90% of the torque from 1500-5500, and those engines are approx 50 lbs lighter than a 2.8.


Meh. The 1.4L turbo in the Chevy Cruze/Sonic has 100% of the torque available from 1800-6500. It may only make the same amount of power as the 2.8, but it's smaller, and the throttle response is far better. Heck, the throttle response in the Cruze I used to have, was much better than it is in my Avalanche, that makes twice as much torque.

So, what was that about lag and throttle response with turbos? It's no longer a valid argument. All you need is for the engine to be tuned properly. A poorly tuned turbo engine, or a poorly tuned N/A engine are both not going to have great throttle response, or run their best. Tune it right and there won't be any problems.

A SIDI VVT 4 cylinder turbo in the right car with the right suspension will outperform a C5/C6 Vette easily enough. It's just a matter of suspension, area under the curve, and weight. Which is why the Ariel Atom performs as well as it does.
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Report this Post07-18-2014 05:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zzzhuhSend a Private Message to zzzhuhEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:

What a great opportunity for someone to lead us all to a new, better swap for our Fieros! You would think that those who see the need would be the first to actually try to make it happen, rather than wonder why it hasn't. What's holding you back? Money? Technical know-how? Work space? I'm one that does not 'get it' and likes the 2.8....so it won't be me....


Swap in a 3.4 and you'll start to 'get it' BELIEVE ME.

------------------
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Report this Post07-18-2014 10:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I decided I am going to do a turbo lsj swap. It will be super easy to package. You can get wrecked cobalt ss's for under a grand in online auto auctions ( or so I've seen) the expensive part is picking the car up ( at least for me)

I have not decided whether I will go with an aftermarket ecu or try to delete the bcm

I would get an lnf but I don't want to deal with the vvt and they are much more expensive.

So I will be using aftermarket pistons and connecting rods.

Also going to be using the transmission that comes with the cobalt. Will have to figure out axles.

Going to do a top mount intercooler setup fed by a scoop on the sail panel area to an intercooler where the battery or air cleaner box is depending on which is the shortest route, and I will make sure the air going through the intercooler is sealed from the engine bay and exits in the wheel well which I believe is a low pressure zone. I will maybe get an 84 trunk or add vents to my current trunk to compensate for engine bay heat evacuation loss due to the lack of a vent. This should make the intercooler pretty efficient with little lag and no complicated a2w setup. It also shouldn't heatsoak like conventional tmic can.

So I just need to find a Job now and I can get started!
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Report this Post07-20-2014 12:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for White 84 SESend a Private Message to White 84 SEEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

The F23 swap has been developed for other engines, so using the F23 swap hardware with an Ecotec shouldn't be hard. That still uses the stock Fiero manual transmission axles.

The rest of it doesn't look any worse than a Q4 swap.


Oh?... oh boy this is getting interesting!

------------------
84 Duke, Holley TBI, Manual Trans 4.10, CompuCam, White

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Will
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Report this Post07-21-2014 09:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:
Also going to be using the transmission that comes with the cobalt. Will have to figure out axles.


The LSJ transmission? That's an F35. If you use the F23 from a normal Cobalt, you can use stock Fiero manual transmission axles.
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Report this Post07-21-2014 12:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BillSSend a Private Message to BillSEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

OK; Pushrods vs DOHC-4V. Show me a car that can out-perform a C-5/C-6 Vette AND get better MPG....You CAN'T!


Sure I can. The tuned LNF engine in a Solstice - given the 3,000 lb. weight of the Kappa chassis, you'd expect the results to be a bit better in a somewhat lighter Fiero.

A C5 Vette gets 18/25 mpg, has 345 bhp, and accelerates to 60 in 4.8 secs. and does the 1/4 in 13.2.

My daily driver tuned Solstice gets better mileage (when you aren't using the turbo, they are amazingly frugal - 34 mpg highway) and does 0-60 in 4.5 secs. and a 1/4 in 12.9. It also has a bit more power AND torque than the LS1 does.

Next question.....

These lightweight engines are giant killers. The more aggressive owners are now pushing 500 bhp out of them. Personally, I think 300 - 350 would be a nice place for a Fiero swap.
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Report this Post07-21-2014 05:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for army_greywolfSend a Private Message to army_greywolfEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm the new guy but I'm also a rabid LNF fan and do plan on this swap over the winter (at least start with a second cradle). I owned a 2009 cobalt ss for a few years and loved everything about it except for the cobalt part. The chassis was great, the engine great, the transmission great.. the rest...not so much and I had the sense to recognize a 25k dollar car that quick should at least not rattle like a 1987 ford escort.

Couple things: deleting the BCM is a bad idea, you lose your cluster and are forced into a 450 bucks worth of scan gauges.

It may be more economical to simply build a "jig" for the fiero cradle first then cut up a cobalt cradle and adapt it to a fiero 4 point mount. That's the practical application of things...next using an F23 trans..no dice, the LNF will chew it to pieces in no time because unlike an ls4 the lnf makes its 260 ft lbs of stock torque across 85% of it's power band. Besides that a cobalt already comes with a f35.

And back to the BCM situation...all the new cars these days are CANBUS controlled meaning you just cannot eliminate a component without rewriting the code, tune or both. Trifecta can build a standalone harness and the reality is the BCM can be unplugged and the car still start anyways. CANBUS is car area network bus, so some of the sensors are grouped together and controlled either by a module or a sensor with a built in module. ABS module, BCM, ECM, and on the vast majority of LS powered drive by wire cars...a TCM as well. Not that this is the place to get into it, but you WANT the entire car. Ideally speaking most of the cobalts parts adapt just fine to the Fiero, the rear would get the cobalt knuckles the front on the other hand requires machining to accept the rear hubs on the front.

Right now at least for me it's all just planning. I can get most totaled but uncompromised Cobalts for 3500-4500 with the lnf, some of these cars with go fast parts already installed.

Lastly you want a water to air intercooler, one thing about such a small turbocharger is while it's quick to spool up it's also a major source of heat. You cannot go the subaru route of simply top mounting the IC.

[This message has been edited by army_greywolf (edited 07-21-2014).]

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Report this Post07-21-2014 05:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by army_greywolf:
Couple things: deleting the BCM is a bad idea, you lose your cluster and are forced into a 450 bucks worth of scan gauges.


Not exactly. You can use the stock Fiero gauges just fine, by fitting additional sending units on the engine for the oil pressure and coolant temp, and by using a Dakota Digital converter box to change the speedo signal. In other words, the same thing all the LS3 swaps do.

 
quote
Originally posted by army_greywolf:
It may be more economical to simply build a "jig" for the fiero cradle first then cut up a cobalt cradle and adapt it to a fiero 4 point mount. That's the practical application of things...next using an F23 trans..no dice, the LNF will chew it to pieces in no time because unlike an ls4 the lnf makes its 260 ft lbs of stock torque across 85% of it's power band. Besides that a cobalt already comes with a f35.


I wouldn't cut up a cradle too much to try and adapt it to a Fiero. Mounting the LNF/F35 combo onto a Fiero cradle should be plenty easy to do. You'll just need to position it correctly to fit the axles, have the right angle in the car, and not interfere with the strut towers and frame rails, and you should be fine. Just weld on some additional mount points if they're needed, and make custom mounts if necessary.

 
quote
Originally posted by army_greywolf:
And back to the BCM situation...all the new cars these days are CANBUS controlled meaning you just cannot eliminate a component without rewriting the code, tune or both. Trifecta can build a standalone harness and the reality is the BCM can be unplugged and the car still start anyways. CANBUS is car area network bus, so some of the sensors are grouped together and controlled either by a module or a sensor with a built in module. ABS module, BCM, ECM, and on the vast majority of LS powered drive by wire cars...a TCM as well. Not that this is the place to get into it, but you WANT the entire car. Ideally speaking most of the cobalts parts adapt just fine to the Fiero, the rear would get the cobalt knuckles the front on the other hand requires machining to accept the rear hubs on the front.


I think you're a bit confused about what the CAN bus is and how it works. The acronym stands for Controller Area Network, not car. You don't need to completely rewrite code to add or remove the BCM, or even some of the components on the engine itself. The GM drive by wire cars do not have an extra module for the electronic gas pedal. It's one wire that also goes into the ECM. All you have to do is mount the pedal in the Fiero, and run the wire. There's no such thing as a special throttle control module. The TCM on the LS4 is the transmission module, and it is only present on some cars with automatic transmissions, where the transmission is not controlled directly by the ECM. All 2008+ cars in the US are CAN bus as a matter of Federal regulations, and many between 2004-08 were already converted to CAN, but not all cars produced prior to 2008 in the US are CAN.
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Report this Post07-21-2014 09:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for akademikjeaniusSend a Private Message to akademikjeaniusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

The F23 swap has been developed for other engines, so using the F23 swap hardware with an Ecotec shouldn't be hard. That still uses the stock Fiero manual transmission axles.

The rest of it doesn't look any worse than a Q4 swap.


Transmission route planned when I take the plunge:

http://shop.zzperformance.c...sion-Conversion.aspx
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Report this Post07-22-2014 12:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


The LSJ transmission? That's an F35. If you use the F23 from a normal Cobalt, you can use stock Fiero manual transmission axles.


Well the LSD is attractive in the f35, and it is rated for higher power than the f23 (or so I thought) so I figured if I could find them together then might as well use it. I am unaware of whether the f23 from the cobalt ever came with an LSD. I was planning on using custom axles as I was planning on changing the wheel bearing hubs to larger units for track use (tentative plans) so I was planning on custom axles or using the cobalt hubs


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Report this Post07-22-2014 01:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
the f23 stands up really well behind v8 fieros .it will do the same or better hooked to an LNF . unless you really need the 6 speed ,the f40 is a waste of money .the f35 has not been a great performer .The supercharged cobalts' f35 have axles that fit in to fiero hubs . the LNF axles do not fit fiero hubs .the f23 is the cheap , easy and dependable tranny for an ecotec swap .
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Report this Post07-22-2014 01:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for army_greywolfSend a Private Message to army_greywolfEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
First, I don't think the Fiero cradle is worth the trouble, looking at both from a top down view...some creative welding and gusseting should do just as well rather than building all the bracketry you need for the mounts, it's at least how I plan to go about it, mostly because distance tower to tower is not very different cobalt to fiero, therefore the use of the cobalt's lower control arms, struts and so forth means you get at least HALF of an fe5 suspension package, sway bar included. There are some things to consider...the knuckles need to be swapped side for side, but that's not a huge issue either, then you save on machine work, you get to use big brakes, the brembos would work...with an adjustable proportioning valve. The F35 has been a victim of it's own success, namely living with a top performer engine in a car known for launch wheel hop, cab (control arm bushing) failures...and also with no lift shift. Calling it a bad transmission is a misnomer, the f23 has been "cheap skate" swapped a few times on lsj/lnf cars even in lsj to older cavaliers...and it fails on a regular basis There was a big thread about it on css.net a guy couldnt afford anothe f35 but he was able to find an f23 for 200 bucks, the car was broken just a few days later, street driving. Also, don't suggest to me you would live with the 260/260 numbers forever...These motors can effectively double their output on a s256et and a tune. I should remind you now, on stock turbo 425 ft lbs wheel torque is about what you get on 22.5 psi, I made that. That's pretty cheap go fast compared to other options, even a built ls4 gets expensive if you want to keep the DoD stuff and h/c/i swap...barring a turbo 3800. Turbo guys already know...it's easier to chew up parts in the trans and break axle shafts because of the torque. You don't think the LNF can break an F23...I'm telling you it'll break it in the first ten passes on a stock tune, especially on a rear wheel drive car...What's the torque rating for even an MILD LS4 at 2500 rpm, the LNF will beat that, drive an SS/TC first before you suggest an F23 will do the job. But then again, if a F23 can live behind a fiero on these boards, then let be what will be. I think it has lived behind LS4s because it's a MUCH smoother power delivery, like I already said, wheel hop and heavy footing has destroyed the vast majority of F35s. The F35 is built better with larger components and appearance suggests its a stronger transmission compared side by side. I believe this to actually be true, If you can get an LSD F23 I have never seen one, so far as I know the F35 and F40 are the only LSD optioned transmissions available on GM cars right now.

DISCLAIMER: Most of the kids/young guys I deal with in reference to these cars drive harder than I do. But then...this would be an enthusiast swap, so why would you short yourself anything you didn't have to. Also this is advice. Until I get to the point in four or five months when I begin the fabrication to install an LNF I am just as much in the dark and speculative on the quirks as the rest of you. However, I owned an LNF powered car, I tune these cars and I know most of the quirks of the Cobalt SS, by no means am I am expert, but I do have experience with this combination.

Second...maybe you should look at the lq4/lq9 and so forth in the trucks... they have a module for the throttle. I also used the wrong acronym, its a TAC module. The Cobalt doesn't have it, having been built right into the ECU, however...you do lose cruise control without a BCM, me personally, I enjoy cruise control, every vehicle I own has it. And yes to remove a BCM from the harness you lose something else...VATS. You can disable that in the tune but if you are trying to start the car without the actual ignition from the car...it still will not start. I had this problem personally. What I am trying to say here is this. Why would you pay extra money to remove something from a harness that can give you cruise control and other functionality such as using the cobalt column, steering wheel controls, radio...etc from the donor car. Even if you didn't have the donor car, you STILL can get cruise control off the vss and turn off the abs and body control fault codes as well as airbag codes via tune. Without the BCM you will not have cruise control, instruments (unless through the OBD II port).

Have a closer look at an LNF, where exactly are you going to put all these instrument sensors at? Tap the block? The aluminum extension behind the pump? There is one test port for oil pressure, but it requires you take part the engine to put the adapter on it...I know this because I installed a oil pressure/temperature sending unit on my Cobalt. The water temperature would require an in hose adapter, the sending unit on the engine is not calibrated for gauge use...it reads 40 degrees too cold and only varies slightly as it warms up, cold is 120, hot is 160 so go figure although this does not apply to all years LNFs. I wouldn't use fiero gauges on a high tech, high energy density engine like the LNF anyways...aftermarket would be the way to go. OBDII scan gauges like aeroforce interceptors, or the scangauge II cost money, one is 249.99 each last I checked the other is 179.99, youd need two aeroforce gauges for sure to get the necessary information from the engine.

I guess I would do the prudent thing...spending extra money after ebay shopping an engine and trans seems more and more like you could simply buy the donor car and take everything. When all is said and done a tune, done remotely or in person is going to cost 400 or so bucks or you can buy HPTuners, do the tune yourself and have Trifecta send you a modified hpt file that deletes everything you don't actually have on the car anymore. The real reason I plan the swap is simple, it's a weight shedder, the engine is way ahead of it's time, nearly bullet proof since most of the porous blocks have been swapped at dealers by now...and unlike making more and more NA power, you have a massive power band that starts way low and carries to the top.

Lastly semantics being what they are, yes it is controller area network..slang car area network...either for the purpose works. I don't want to start a war I want to clarify that there's more than meets the eye with an LNF. Most people think, ohh it's a turbo 4 it can't make v8 torque, it's all top end power, and that can't be more false. Your talking about 130 hp per liter guys-stock. A tuned wheel horsepower to to around 365hp...stock that equates to 200 engine hp per liter, if the zr1 made that kind of power your talking 1240 hp...theres alot to be done on an LS motor to make that kind of power. Even the LS4 has to push 690 engine hp to meet up with a stock LNF. I would expect to spend approx. $5500 on the swap, that includes the entire donor car probably with at least some go fast goodies already on it, materials, water air intercooler, exhaust work, tune, etc. You can save a negligible amount by custom harness, no bcm, no cradle, highly likely you wont get the timing cover side engine mount with the engine since its easier to simply unbolt the couple allen head bolts than it is to take the mount off the car...need to think about that when you dont get a donor car, it will be missing things you need.

I also have used frozen boost before...good company to work with, best bet for an intercooler solution.

[This message has been edited by army_greywolf (edited 07-22-2014).]

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Report this Post07-22-2014 01:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by army_greywolf:


Lastly you want a water to air intercooler, one thing about such a small turbocharger is while it's quick to spool up it's also a major source of heat. You cannot go the subaru route of simply top mounting the IC.



If I can get enough airflow it will be fine with air to air. Water to air can heatsoak with hard driving over time and is more complicated and heavier. I do believe I can get all the airflow I need, I may have to run two cores, one where each vent was with two scoops, and split the outlet from the turbo to have half and half go to each core before rejoining before the throttle body And bov. SVOs have intercoolers that are much smaller area than the core I could fit, but they are deep to compensate.

Also if a side scoop gets poor airflow, a roof scoop would definitely have the ability to feed the IC (or two) enough air. I am not building a drag car for short bursts. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work and I will figure out another solution, maybe intercooler down low fed by a low down side scoop behind the door.

I am not going to use a super small turbo so heat should not be terrible. A 16g or 18g on a 2.0 ej205 can make over 400 awhp and there are tmic that can handle them. I don't see why I could not accomplish the same effect with a 2.0 lsj. Especially if I use a bigger twin scroll for superior spool with lower temps. The Subaru tmic is around the same area as one of the vents on the notchbacks.

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 07-22-2014).]

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Report this Post07-22-2014 01:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for army_greywolfSend a Private Message to army_greywolfEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Low mount? Like the Rad you could airdam the factory intercooler in place of the original cat position, I measured it recently, it would fit fine, plus routing would be much less a problem. That would be the lowest cost solution by far and have the best chance of working.

I know what your thinking about heat soak and I agree...to a point. I plan to simply increase system volume as much as possible, giving the rise of the water temp a chance to equalize on the track, a good tune will cut back a degree or two of timing (hardly noticable on a road course from my experience) as the temps get up and over 135-140. And like you just said, try, if it works great, if not...there's always option 2.

That said, heat exchanger size is everything, look how big it is on the GT500.
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Report this Post07-22-2014 02:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by army_greywolf:

Low mount? Like the Rad you could airdam the factory intercooler in place of the original cat position, I measured it recently, it would fit fine, plus routing would be much less a problem. That would be the lowest cost solution by far and have the best chance of working.

I know what your thinking about heat soak and I agree...to a point. I plan to simply increase system volume as much as possible, giving the rise of the water temp a chance to equalize on the track, a good tune will cut back a degree or two of timing (hardly noticable on a road course from my experience) as the temps get up and over 135-140. And like you just said, try, if it works great, if not...there's always option 2.

That said, heat exchanger size is everything, look how big it is on the GT500.


That could also be an option but less desirable due to limited air flow that may be somewhat turbulent as well as the danger of damaging the IC from road debris. I am currently speculating however and will attempt to get a measurement of airflow at the lower location. It should also have a harder time heat soaking in the cat location than in the air vent location. I drive my fiero in the snow, but I doubt I would anymore after all these modifications so snow I guess should not affect my design (kinda was in the back of my mind)
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Report this Post07-22-2014 02:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for army_greywolfSend a Private Message to army_greywolfEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
think more like 20g, this engine is a breather, better head designs but still not awesome. If you plan to say...road course the car, because it's a fiero and not a cobalt it can take advantage of more on the power corner time, and a lighter "booty" also means the car will be more neutral...You could go pretty big turbo wise, an S256ET can get you to 450-475 whp 500-530 wtq.

The LNF needs a few things before you decide on a turbo swap as the "next" power adder. That is if your putting the car to work...daily drivign and occassional romps not withstanding here.

Pistons are almost always the first thing to be swapped. I suggest Wiseco pistons with a face ceramic coat for heat resistance. K1 rods (the part numbers changed recently, but I can get it for you) and I used Darton sleeves but the idea is to swap sleeves when boost pressures are going much farther up. Everything else requires nothing, the engine will make 500 hp on pump gas, 400 on e47 on stock injectors. Supposedly the opel injectors will allow full e85 on a 22 psi tune without starving, I on the other hand think the problem is HPFP supply from 4k to 5800...it's an ongoing debate but I have logs to suggest the latter. ZZP sells a 5th injector to run e85 on a stock turbo with tune if you wanted to go that route.

The no lift shift on a turbo swapped car can be downright scary, and it can't be good for the trans but damn if it isn't fun.

For those of you who are tuners, I have no idea what the lbs per min the maf reads on a stock LS4(never tuned one), but a tuned LNF can exceed 37-39.

Which reminds me, you need the cobalt fuel pump because it has the regulator in the pump assembly.

EDIT: LSJ uses a P12 ecm, the LNF uses a much more complicated bosch e69 ecm...with if you must know includes about 8 times as many tables only 200 or so are unlocked for tuning purposes. the lsj is flow managed where the lnf is torque managed, so in the winter you would see less boost on an lnf...and that complication increases. If you were dead set on a turbo ecotec engine...the CHEAPER option is a turbo swapped LSJ powered cobalt that's been wrecked. Probably get everything you need for under 4 grand...installed, the only problem with that, the LSJ is not factory sleeved.

[This message has been edited by army_greywolf (edited 07-22-2014).]

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Report this Post07-22-2014 02:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for army_greywolfSend a Private Message to army_greywolfEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

army_greywolf

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http://www.cobaltss.net/for...ndalone-unit-263088/

Information on deleting the BCM for use as a standalone E69 controller. For the purposes of the airboat, you obviosly dont need anything not controlling the engine.
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Report this Post07-22-2014 02:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by army_greywolf:
Which reminds me, you need the cobalt fuel pump because it has the regulator in the pump assembly.


Any reason I can't use an adjustable inline fpr? At how much boost would you recommend re-sleeving the block?

If an aftermarket ecu is used (lsj for me) are there outputs that analog gauges could utilize? Aftermarket gauges, not the stockers, but I do not want to use the cobalt cluster at all.

One idea I had was to use beefy rubber mounts on the engine and trans to help save the trans and prevent shock loading. Even a little flex can help a lot in lowering the forces in the trans. I have never experienced wheel hop with my 135 whp 2.8 and poly suspension bushings and stock rubber transmission and cradle bushings, and I have beaten the hell out an Isuzu with that and the transmission is totally fine (3 years of abuse, wot in every gear especially second, burnouts daily, all in an attempt to require an f23 swap haha). So any naysayers with this high hp application?

Edit I did not know the lsj was not sleeved, I think for my HP goal (400) it will be fine based on the turbo lsj cobalt builds I have seen.

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 07-22-2014).]

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Report this Post07-22-2014 02:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for army_greywolfSend a Private Message to army_greywolfEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
All p12 powered cars have common sensors, all can be tapped for regular gauges. you can run the tach off a coil and 4 cyl tach on the fiero. Also the P12 doesnt require the bcm at all to run the car, unless it's a 2007 which means it's a 32 bit expanded p12 ecm of which I know little of internally only that it can run more of the LS powered cars and trucks. I can say without a doubt I can adapt the harness and tune a P12 to run in a fiero in a day or two. Also the LSJ has the nice ability to swap injectors and run E85 without a problem, Trifecta also sells dual layer tunes (I can do the same thing but it requires wiring a certain sensor pigtail to a switch and it doesn't account for exceptionally high or low ambient temperatures...)

LSJ can make 350 or so reliable horsepower, almost 400 I would say with near certainty. The LSJ has to be machined to accept sleeves at all but it is a worthwhile mod. Unlike the LNF the LSJ has pretty strong pistons right from the get go...I'd still upgrade them. I know of LSJ powered cars carefully tuned and running S20G turbos for 450 plus horsepower.

Also it's not so much that pistons on the LNF fail but the ringlands melt, it's a weak spot and I believe a heat issue moreso than pressure. I've seen enough pictures and held a few in my hand to think this the case. LSJs crack the cylinder walls more than they have weak pistons but it's not at all a weak engine, probably the strongest stock block available on planet earth (from GM) liter for liter. Now there are much newer engines, I believe the gen 3 ecotec aka gen 2 di engines such as the LDK (regal gs, verano turbo) are better overall but dollar for dollar, the lsj cannot be beat.

recap: If your running an LSJ, unless your going exceptionally high on the power scale, running stock is fine. What you wont have is high power and high mileage it will be a trade off. You can certainly run an FPR, but remember its 4 bar (58 psi static) not 3 bar and if your using a stock pump it will not flow enough.

I have to correct myself the engine has sleeves and they are wet sleeves but they are unsupported in the block, gen 1 sleeves are installed top down and secured on both ends by block and head, the LSJ is press fit as well, but it's only secured from one end, through the bottom into a cast unsupported, im not sure what you would call it but the idea at the time was to fit them all top and bottom with the head sitting on not the sleeves but an additional cast in portion of the block. Gen 2 ecotec, aka LNF are presfit into the engine with the sleeve itself as the sealing surface. When upgrading the LSJ, the cast support is machined out and the same sleeve type you find in an LNF gets pressed in. I have a hard time making this "visual" but I can find pictures.

[This message has been edited by army_greywolf (edited 07-22-2014).]

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Report this Post07-22-2014 03:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for all the info, that is good to know, I will look into getting the block sleeved just because of track abuse. I would not run with the stock pistons because of the ringlands failing in general, and I would get pistons with a ceramic coating to reduce temps. I will target a pre 07 cobalt to avoid the bcm issues. Also I will not be running e85 as it is not easy to find in the Boston area.

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 07-22-2014).]

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Report this Post07-22-2014 03:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for army_greywolfSend a Private Message to army_greywolfEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Aha found it, the LSJ is an open deck block, the sleeves are uniformly sized top to bottom with a gasket support at the top. The LNF is a closed deck with a much thicker wall thickness where it matters most. It's also less likely to have the good ol gm piston slap when cold. The LSJ can be machined to accept LNF closed deck type sleeves and it's a worthwhile upgrade. LSJs suffer from piston slap just like alot of LS motors do...or for that matter 2nd and 3rd gen v6 engines. With the closed deck sleeves you can install a much tighter piston, lower tension rings and basically make more power and get better mileage.

dont deal with these guys but it shows a picture of what a closed deck sleeve looks like.

http://www.ottperformance.c...Sleeve-Kit-4p445.htm

compare it to this...

http://www.redlineforums.co...leeves-lsj-more.html

mind you the second are cetrifugal cast (sp?) and the former is machined out of a one piece billet...you can imagine the benefit looking at this.

[This message has been edited by army_greywolf (edited 07-22-2014).]

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Report this Post07-22-2014 08:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:
Thanks for all the info, that is good to know, I will look into getting the block sleeved just because of track abuse. I would not run with the stock pistons because of the ringlands failing in general, and I would get pistons with a ceramic coating to reduce temps. I will target a pre 07 cobalt to avoid the bcm issues. Also I will not be running e85 as it is not easy to find in the Boston area.


If you're going to abuse it at the track and keep the engine in high RPM range, you'll want to get hardened oil pump gears. I've seen the stock gears tend to expand and explode from extended abuse.
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