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Not to start a war, however, bottom removal of an engine being easier is a hoax! by hcforde
Started on: 08-06-2013 11:21 AM
Replies: 78 (1840 views)
Last post by: 84fiero123 on 04-26-2014 04:51 PM
hcforde
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Report this Post08-06-2013 11:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hcfordeClick Here to Email hcfordeSend a Private Message to hcfordeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When there are hundreds of post about the difficulty in the procedure of a process I think a caveat needs to be up front. In this instance, that is to tell people to test the cradle bolts first and see if they will be a difficult problem. If not, then to proceed with the bottom removal. Most people start from the top then work their way down, the cradle bolts being the last thing attempted. This leaves the most difficult problem for the last, that is never good in any situation. If it were addressed first then they could make an alternate decision early in the process. Most people posting about this problem here are most likely removing their engine for the first time and have no idea what they are in for when they come to the cradle bolts. This is especially true if the car has been sitting for a while or the car is from a northern state especially where salt is used. If those bolts are 'rusted in' it is not quicker or easier and definitely not least expensive when the extra cost of 'exotic' cutting tools need to be purchased by some. That then means more time in research and procurement of the needed tools.
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hookdonspeed
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Report this Post08-06-2013 11:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hookdonspeedClick Here to visit hookdonspeed's HomePageClick Here to Email hookdonspeedSend a Private Message to hookdonspeedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hcforde:

When there are hundreds of post about the difficulty in the procedure of a process I think a caveat needs to be up front. In this instance, that is to tell people to test the cradle bolts first and see if they will be a difficult problem. If not, then to proceed with the bottom removal. Most people start from the top then work their way down, the cradle bolts being the last thing attempted. This leaves the most difficult problem for the last, that is never good in any situation. If it were addressed first then they could make an alternate decision early in the process. Most people posting about this problem here are most likely removing their engine for the first time and have no idea what they are in for when they come to the cradle bolts. This is especially true if the car has been sitting for a while or the car is from a northern state especially where salt is used. If those bolts are 'rusted in' it is not quicker or easier and definitely not least expensive when the extra cost of 'exotic' cutting tools need to be purchased by some. That then means more time in research and procurement of the needed tools.


O.o took me all but 10minutes to cut-out a seized front cradle bolt, and about 15min to open the frame and fix one of the floating bolts w/ rodneys repair kit..... and its good practice to replace the cradle mount bushings if your pulling the engine, as most are dryrotted...

[This message has been edited by hookdonspeed (edited 08-06-2013).]

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phonedawgz
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Report this Post08-06-2013 11:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It's easier to cut those bolts than deal with installing everything with the engine in the engine bay.

I used my 4" cut off wheel with a larger wheel bolted to it to cut off the bolt heads.

So let's suppose you get finished and you find out you put something together wrong and need to drop it out again. Having dealt with the rusted cradle bolts means you can easily drop it and re-install it again.
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Report this Post08-06-2013 12:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MaxCubesClick Here to Email MaxCubesSend a Private Message to MaxCubesEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Good thing about living in the southwest, is that the Fieros here tend to be high and dry....never had a problem with seized cradle bolts here

.... unless the car came from the east
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Report this Post08-06-2013 12:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GrantmanClick Here to Email GrantmanSend a Private Message to GrantmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm a novice to Fiero's and haven't worked on cars much for decades. I had to cut off one front bolt and cut a hole in the frame to remove both rear bolts. I used Rodney's repair kit also and those work Great! I was nervous as can be that I was going to have to cut etc. but now having done it I didn't think it was all that bad. I would rather not have to do it, but if I did this again I wouldn't be afraid to do it.

What I will say is make sure you're cutting that front bolt straight. I got it a little crooked and the 4" cutting wheel blew apart. I used standard wheels from Home Depot. the frame cut I started with the 4" wheel but used a dremel to cut the corners.

[This message has been edited by Grantman (edited 08-06-2013).]

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hookdonspeed
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Report this Post08-06-2013 12:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hookdonspeedClick Here to visit hookdonspeed's HomePageClick Here to Email hookdonspeedSend a Private Message to hookdonspeedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I used a saw-zaw with a tourch -long blade, found a good angle and went to town, went threw it like butter.

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2.5
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Report this Post08-06-2013 12:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Should a guy spray the bolts with oil or something from time to time on a driver?
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hcforde
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Report this Post08-06-2013 01:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hcfordeClick Here to Email hcfordeSend a Private Message to hcfordeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Most of you are making my point!!

hookedonspeed
 
quote
cut-out a seized front cradle bolt, and about 15min to open the frame and fix one of the floating bolts w/ rodneys repair kit

 
quote
I used a saw-zaw with a tourch -long blade


phonedawgz
 
quote
I used my 4" cut off wheel with a larger wheel bolted to it to cut off the bolt heads.


Most people coming into this do not have these cutting tools and only the standard mechanical tools for removing nuts and bolts. They do not expect to have to have a reciprocating saw or rotary saw/grinder to do this kind of thing. They really need to be told to tackle this up front, then they can choose what to do. There is an old saying "Being fore-warned is being for-armed". Getting the engine out is the main concern. How it is done should be geared to the tools a person has in front of him first, and giving him the means to understand what he may need before he gets down to tackling the job.

I have these tools and/or have the ability/funds to get them. It is the going back and forth to the store to pick up UN-expected stuff that kills my time. Maybe I need to do a post on what to consider before removing an engine and the tools you may need to successfully deal with the issues a person may find while attempting to do so.


I got a LENOX diamond blade - not that impressed. If the Milwaukee diamond tourch blade I will recomment that to newbies. Frustration dampens enthusiasm and I think we need all the enthusiasm possible in the Fiero camp for newbies
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Report this Post08-06-2013 01:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you have seized cradle bolts, replace them! How can a person put their lives on the line with a known issue? If the bolt is degraded enough to seize, then it's integrity comes into question.

Continue on...
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hcforde
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Report this Post08-06-2013 01:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hcfordeClick Here to Email hcfordeSend a Private Message to hcfordeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
to poster 2.5

If you have reinstalled the bolts(new) think that some heavy grease might be better, it would be more protective from the elements by creating a barrier.

[This message has been edited by hcforde (edited 08-06-2013).]

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mattwa
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Report this Post08-06-2013 01:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It really is easier removing the whole cradle then just the engine. Yea, I had frustrating problems with the 4 cradle bolts the FIRST time I dropped the cradle, 4 new bolts and nuts (yes including the ones in the frame, they spun on me), and you never have to worry about it again for many years. I did try removing just the engine on a different Fiero, and in the end I deeply regretted it because I had such a hard time realigning the engine and transmission (manual) and clutch, I ended up dropping the cradle again anyway.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 08-06-2013).]

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Report this Post08-06-2013 02:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I don't think a $20 4" cut off tool from Harbor Freight is what I would call an "exotic cutting tool." You don't need a $600 plasma cutter to do the job.
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Report this Post08-06-2013 02:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Engine removal from the top is easier..........
And if you are yanking a good drivetrain to use in another car, have at it.
BUT, if you are going to reinstall another or the same motor back into the car it is much better and easier to drop the cradle from the get-go.
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Report this Post08-06-2013 02:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Whatever works for ya'.
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Report this Post08-06-2013 03:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Oh yeah, antiseize with a quality copper based product. Don't be afraid to get it on the shank also.
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Report this Post08-06-2013 05:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dematrix86gtClick Here to Email dematrix86gtSend a Private Message to dematrix86gtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Mine came from texas, no rust ,nothing seized,everything in great cept the interior , that texas sun and heat does a number to a fiero's interior, but thats all being addressed piece by piece. I just had my cradle out last month took 30 min to drop everything and pull the tranny. Most people that pull the motor might as well pull the whole cradle. gives you a chance to clean things up and inspect everything and replace if needed. Where ppl get into trouble is once the cradle is out they cant move it or its to much for them or they dont have the means to lift the car. But if you wanna have a Race pulling a duke out . you topside and me pulling the cradle youll loose every time.
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Report this Post08-06-2013 05:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I just cut them off if they dont come right out. Cutt off wheel, or sawzall work fine. If you dont have any of 'those high techy exotic things' use a blowtorch. I rented a sawzall from Home Depot for $12, but ended up buying a rechargeable one at Harbor Freight for $29 just to have. I already trimmed some tree limbs with it.
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Report this Post08-06-2013 05:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dematrix86gtClick Here to Email dematrix86gtSend a Private Message to dematrix86gtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
6 dollar nut splitter works real good too.
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Report this Post08-06-2013 05:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Scottzilla79Send a Private Message to Scottzilla79Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

I don't think a $20 4" cut off tool from Harbor Freight is what I would call an "exotic cutting tool." You don't need a $600 plasma cutter to do the job.


Shhhh! You're gonna ruin it for some of the married folks.
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hcforde
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Report this Post08-06-2013 07:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hcfordeClick Here to Email hcfordeSend a Private Message to hcfordeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Let me restate the issue. There are numerous post about the cradle bolts, especially the front ones, New people that are removing their engine are given a blanket statement that the BEST way is to remove it from the bottom without any mention of what they may run into(Look at the HUGE number of post concerning this) These are NOOBS. I also stated that
 
quote
This is especially true if the car has been sitting for a while or the car is from a northern state especially where salt is used.
I would rather know up front what may be ahead rather than have it come as a complete surprise.

I have purchased an Impact wrench, Reciprocating saw/diamond blades, 2foot breaker bar w/ 1/2 inch socket, cut off tool, angle grinder, Cherry picker, engine stand, engine dolly (I may add more when I think of them) . Some guys have removed engines in a couple of hours. It is taking me many, many more because of the rust that has sat up on this car for it being out in the elements for 12 years and that is what I am addressing. We cut, and cut with little to no progress only to find out how hardened this thing is and we need SPECIAL BLADES,--back to the store again. If they were told to deal with the cradle bolts first a lot of frustration would be relieved. Yes it does matter when you get the info.

The other issue is that IF you remove the engine from the top because of the bolts, you can work on the engine(or have it worked on by someone else) AND, you probably should remove the cradle and replace the bolts. It is not an either or situation I am advocating. If you do what can get you there faster first, do it. Getting the engine out is job 1, Now you have more room to work on getting the bolts out don't you?

The car in question is being stripped to the bone so to speak. Nothing will be going back on. It will be a test bed for a chop top and wide body modifications.

[This message has been edited by hcforde (edited 08-06-2013).]

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87FieroSport
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Report this Post08-06-2013 07:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 87FieroSportSend a Private Message to 87FieroSportEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The first thing I did to my Fiero was make sure it was easy to pull the motor, repair and replace at my shop so I don't take up a lift.
Replaced the cradle bolts one by one, took an hour. Haven't needed to drop the cradle since.

Good investment and worth being able to drop it within 45mins.
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Report this Post08-06-2013 07:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for crashyoungClick Here to Email crashyoungSend a Private Message to crashyoungEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
In Michigan, the blue wrench is the mechanics best friend.
Followed by the angle grinder, sawsall, etc.
If you don't have a couple of exotic tools to do battle with
rusted, busted fasteners, you won't get the job done very fast.
Harbor freight carries the inexpensive bottom end level of the
tools you may need, and you can order online.
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MulletproofMonk
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Report this Post08-06-2013 08:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MulletproofMonkClick Here to visit MulletproofMonk's HomePageSend a Private Message to MulletproofMonkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I don't think that "bottom removal of an engine being easier is a hoax". I also don't think someone should have to put a post in their thread telling you to test the cradle bolts because you might run into a problem. Maybe I am wrong and every post should start with a warning disclaimer of how you could break something, you could have the car fall on you, you might get a scratch or you might even get dirty.

The threads on here mimic the manuals. Go pickup a Chiltons, Haynes or GM Service Manual and not one is going to say "go check the cradle bolts first".
If all things are equal, no rusted bolts, dropping the cradle is easier in my opinion.

If you can't tell, this is a hot button for me. I get the occasional PM about my poly thread and how bolts were a different size. Guess what, that happens. People take personal time to build these threads to help people out. It rubs me wrong when people trash them because something wasn't as easy as you made it look...

I will now step off my soapbox...


------------------
-Brian

My 87 GT Poly Suspension Upgrade (all pics) thread
Removing the roof panel
My HUD install thread
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun?

[This message has been edited by MulletproofMonk (edited 08-06-2013).]

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benoitmalenfant
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Report this Post08-06-2013 09:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for benoitmalenfantSend a Private Message to benoitmalenfantEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hcforde:
Let me restate the issue. There are numerous post about the cradle bolts, especially the front ones, New people that are removing their engine are given a blanket statement that the BEST way is to remove it from the bottom without any mention of what they may run into(Look at the HUGE number of post concerning this) These are NOOBS.


I agree that without any information and just a blanket statement "remove the engine from the bottom", newbies might be in for a surprise on a rusted car.

On the other hand, as you stated, there are numerous posts concerning seized cradle bolts and how much of a pita they are to remove, so a newbie (like I was when I first joined the forum) is bound to see these posts when he searches for "best way to remove Fiero engine" and thus will not be surprised when he ends-up spending time cutting bolts.

From personal experience, I knew right off the bat that I needed cutting tools when I first decided to lower the cradle, because of the numerous posts on the matter. and got myself the equipment I was going to need (and then some, but that's another story).

At the end of the day, I don't think the majority of Fiero newbies see the engine removal as a simple task, I think it's pretty common knowledge it'll take more than just a screwdriver and a few wrenches to do it.

------------------
Ben
87 GT / 88 GT
84 Indy #1863

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David Hambleton
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Report this Post08-07-2013 12:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for David HambletonClick Here to Email David HambletonSend a Private Message to David HambletonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hmmmm......

I just pulled an '87 2.5L & 5 speed out the top. It seemed like there would be less stuff to mess with and/or break. That way the frame was still a roller, which was helpful to the buyer who is using parts of the frame to repair an '84.

I'm considering pulling an '86 2.5L away from the tranny & hoisting it out the top, then dropping the '87 2.5L in from the top.
Again, it seems like I would be 'disturbing' less stuff. ('The less I mess with, the less I have to fix'.)

I expect the tranny mounting bolts need to be removed to assist the engine to tranny fit-up. Other than that, it seems like the process would be less 'invasive'.

I wonder if I'll end up dropping the cradle anyway...
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hcforde
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Report this Post08-07-2013 02:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hcfordeClick Here to Email hcfordeSend a Private Message to hcfordeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Mulletproofmonk
The manuals were written when the cars were fresh. They had not been considered "classics" when those manuals were written. At this point in time all things are not equal, we do not have a 'perfect' situation as you would with a new vehicle. That said there was no intent to trash anyone but to make things better for people attempting this especially for the first time. There are 156 post referring to the cradle bolts in the title of the thread topic. It is probably the #1 issue when it comes to engine removal. One thing I have found even in life is that when you address the biggest problem first, you get the greatest return.

benoitmalenfant
I must respectfully disagree with you on the point that looking up engine removal (9 threads) by a newbie will give you the threads about the cradle bolts. Most of these threads(cradle bolts) are in the archives also which newbies have not learned how to access early on. Just like the fact that only 2 day worth of post are accessed unless you go in and specifically choose to access more of a historical backlog.

Also most cars have the engines pulled from the top and any friends will probably give new Fiero owners that advice up front. They probably may not find Pennock's until sometime later
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Report this Post08-07-2013 09:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Any time you work on an older car, you plan on things going wrong. 25 year old cars dont come apart like a 2 year old one. ie/ ALWAYS plan on some broken studs when you take exhaust parts off. If you dont, count your blessings. Myself working on even older car bodies like from the 60s, I usually get the biggest wrench I can for a bolt and hope it breaks off so I dont have to spend time fighting with it.
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Report this Post08-07-2013 10:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Is it even possible to remove the engine from a manual transmission car from the top?
After all, the engine and trans need to separate by more than 2 inches for the input shaft to clear the clutch. I'm not sure there's that much extra room in the engine bay with either of the stock engines.

I can see that it may be doable in an automatic trans car, as the units don't even have to move an inch further apart in order to disengage.

Of course a good many of the 90-degree bank angle swap engines won't even fit from the top. My Northstar certainly won't.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 08-07-2013).]

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post08-07-2013 10:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If we want to talk exotic tools... The simple fact you need a GIANT cherry picker to get the motor out the top is exotic enough for me. 1 $30 floor jack is all I need to remove from the bottom.
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Report this Post08-07-2013 11:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for benoitmalenfantSend a Private Message to benoitmalenfantEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hcforde:
benoitmalenfant
I must respectfully disagree with you on the point that looking up engine removal (9 threads) by a newbie will give you the threads about the cradle bolts. Most of these threads(cradle bolts) are in the archives also which newbies have not learned how to access early on. Just like the fact that only 2 day worth of post are accessed unless you go in and specifically choose to access more of a historical backlog.


Agreed that without a minimum of experience on forums, it will be harder to find.

I was talking from personal experience, when I looked on here on the best way to remove the engine when I first got my Fiero, I spent a few hours gathering as much info I could. Then again I am one of those that first reads the manual of just about anything I buy before using it. I know that most people will RTM only when they encounter an issue so I can see how they might be in for a surprise if they only quickly read 'remove the engine from the bottom'

All in all I agree with the general sense of what you're saying: Give both sides of the story to newbies so they know they have options and what they might expect when doing both options.
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Report this Post08-07-2013 11:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MulletproofMonkClick Here to visit MulletproofMonk's HomePageSend a Private Message to MulletproofMonkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by benoitmalenfant:
Agreed that without a minimum of experience on forums, it will be harder to find.

And yet this is the most user friendly forum I have been on...

 
quote
Originally posted by hcforde:
Mulletproofmonk
The manuals were written when the cars were fresh. They had not been considered "classics" when those manuals were written. At this point in time all things are not equal, we do not have a 'perfect' situation as you would with a new vehicle.


The manual is the manual. If this forum didn't exist, how would you remove the engine? Pickup a manual? That is the way we did it growing up. Al Gore (dumbass) hadn't invented the internet yet... Plus nobody ever spreads the wrong information...

 
quote
Originally posted by hcforde:
Mulletproofmonk
There are 156 post referring to the cradle bolts in the title of the thread topic. It is probably the #1 issue when it comes to engine removal. One thing I have found even in life is that when you address the biggest problem first, you get the greatest return.

 
quote
Originally posted by benoitmalenfant:
All in all I agree with the general sense of what you're saying: Give both sides of the story to newbies so they know they have options and what they might expect when doing both options.


I agree on tackling the biggest problem first. If you check the bolts and they are rusted, are you going to change direction or still drop it out the bottom? If you are still going to drop it out of the bottom then there is NO time savings or better return. You will deal with the rusted bolts at the beginning or at the end. Are you going to now pull it out the top? I searched top engine removal and came up with 6 results. One had a picture of the engine/trans hanging from an engine hoist. Now how-to or step-by-step process.

Now, I challenge you (or benoitmalenfant) with a task. When you remove your engine out of the top and put one back in, please take pictures and document every step in a thread here on the forum. That will give people another option when they search. Make it something like "Engine Removal from the top without dropping the cradle" so that it has some good key words. I'm serious about this. Instead of asking people to provide a warning in their threads, build one of your own proving out the top removal and step-by-step process for it.

It's easier to complain about a problem then it is to find a solution and fix the problem...

-Brian

[This message has been edited by MulletproofMonk (edited 08-07-2013).]

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da.slyboy
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Report this Post08-07-2013 11:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for da.slyboyClick Here to Email da.slyboySend a Private Message to da.slyboyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hcforde:


The car in question is being stripped to the bone so to speak. Nothing will be going back on. It will be a test bed for a chop top and wide body modifications.



I'm confused.....this car is up for major modification (full strip/chop/body modification) and one is frustrated because time is being taken to deal with unexpected issues (because you are going to run into a lot more with your plans for sure)? From the sounds of things the cradle would had to have come out anyway, so you are actually saving yourself time in the long run dealing with this issue now.


Besides isn't one of the reasons we work on cars is because it gives us an excuse to purchase new tools
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benoitmalenfant
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Report this Post08-07-2013 12:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for benoitmalenfantSend a Private Message to benoitmalenfantEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by MulletproofMonk:
Now, I challenge you (or benoitmalenfant) with a task. When you remove your engine out of the top and put one back in, please take pictures and document every step in a thread here on the forum. That will give people another option when they search. Make it something like "Engine Removal from the top without dropping the cradle" so that it has some good key words. I'm serious about this. Instead of asking people to provide a warning in their threads, build one of your own proving out the top removal and step-by-step process for it.


Brian, I've always removed the engine from a Fiero from the bottom, it seemed easier (even with the rusted bolts) than from the top. I agreed with hcforde on the general sense of his statement (giving both sides of the story and not just a blanket statement), not on his choice of method for engine removal, so unsure why I'd be included in your challenge.

The part where I agree with hcforde is when a newbie asks "whats the best way to remove the engine on my Fiero", instead of making a blanket statement "from the bottom" it would be nice if we (and I include myself here, not pointing fingers!) would actually say: "Remove it from the bottom BUT you might have to deal with rusted bolts", thus giving both sides of the story.

Mind you, I would too like to see a tutorial for top-removal as good as the one already in the FAQ section. This would definitely be a plus for the community and be a quick go-to thread for any newbies looking at options for engine removal.

 
quote
It's easier to complain about a problem then it is to find a solution and fix the problem...


Can't we just see this post as a newbie's point of a view and how we can all improve in helping newbies instead of dismissing it as "You're just a whiner, if you're not happy with it, just fix it yourself" ?

[This message has been edited by benoitmalenfant (edited 08-07-2013).]

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Report this Post08-07-2013 04:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hcfordeClick Here to Email hcfordeSend a Private Message to hcfordeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This is a very friendly forum and that is why I am posting here. The main thrust is to hopefully make something that is very good excellent, even better. Again it is not either or on the cradle. AND, I am talking about the removal If taking it out from the top once you have the needed information is better do so , but that does not mean totally neglect the cradle. I would suggest if the cradle bolts are a major problem (you find this out by trying them first) remove the engine from the top then, take the cradle out when you have more room with the engine/trans gone and deal with the bolts then. When finished with your repair (of engine/trans & cradle bolts) putting the drive train back onto the cradle and replacing from the bottom when the work is done. Your engine is fixed, so is your cradle for the future.

da.slyboy
Don't be confused that this is the only Fiero I have. This is the first one I have taken apart. I currently have a running 1988 Automatic V6 GT, running 1985 Iron Duke 5spd SE. In the minor issue category I have a 1986 V6 Automatic SE(won't shift into gear), 1986 4 speed V6 GT(Slave Cylinder needs to be changed), 1988 5 spd V6 T-Top GT (Fuel pump bad). The purpose for the post is because I have seen & experienced the cradle bolt issue and it is my intent to write this up in collaboration with those that have pulled from the top as an alternative to get the job done. There is an old saying that "there is more than one way to skin a cat". That is all I want to offer, especially to new people that get Fiero Fever. If the first car they get is a high degree of trouble because of these bolts it may dampen their spirits and they will have less than good things to say about the car to others. If they get a good car that does not have this issue then there is no harm, no foul!!! THIS ENGINE I AM WORKING ON NOW IS COMING OUT FROM THE BOTTOM!!!I I am too intimate with the issue and too far along to change. I am very much aware of what lies ahead for me as I venture into unknown territory. However, my pockets are deep enough to absorb the added expense. Some new people may not be able to do that and need a clearer picture from the beginning. There are stories here of that occurring and projects being abandoned and kids getting in deeper than expected and having to invest more than they really wanted to in order to save their initial investment..

benoitmalenfant
I appreciate your clarification. I also apologize if I sound like a whiner or did not explain myself well for the ultimate reason for the post. I owned my first Fiero from 1984-1990. In 1971 I owned my first sports car which was a Lotus Europa. It was the first of a string of sports cars all of which had the to have the engines pulled from the top if that was necessary. There was a lot more room in the engine bay back then. I pulled and reworked engines on the Lotus, MGB, MG Midget, Sprite, and the AMX. So I, personally, have an idea of what I am getting into and I am dedicated to the task of finishing it.
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Report this Post08-07-2013 04:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:

If we want to talk exotic tools... The simple fact you need a GIANT cherry picker to get the motor out the top is exotic enough for me. 1 $30 floor jack is all I need to remove from the bottom.


I use a chain block and tackle and a roof rafter to pull engines out the top. I dont have room for an engine hoist to set around.

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Report this Post08-07-2013 04:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Dukes come out pretty easily from the top, but I have never attempted a 2.8.
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Report this Post08-07-2013 05:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTClick Here to Email Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My 2.8 came out the top. We had to remove the Alternator bracket, but it came out, reeeaaallllyyyy careful.

My 4.9 won't do it.

I agree the cradle bolts can be a problem, but, so can the motor mount bolts, and the exhaust flange bolts.

The lesser evil is to drop the cradle, however you really have to check that every thing is unhooked.

For instance, I forgot the oil pressure sensor....daaahhhh.

For the price of a bolt, I'd cut any one of them that is frozen.

But, lifting the car up and pulling that cradle out is a major task. Easier is relative. You need a hoist strong enough, and a dolly under the cradle.

Changing out a motor on a 28 year old car is never easy.

Arn
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Report this Post08-07-2013 05:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for imabuzzkillSend a Private Message to imabuzzkillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
"Most people coming into this do not have these cutting tools"

If you don't have tools, you really can't work on anything.

Buy a new car
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Report this Post08-07-2013 05:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lambo nutSend a Private Message to Lambo nutEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by imabuzzkill:

"Most people coming into this do not have these cutting tools"

If you don't have tools, you really can't work on anything.

Buy a new car


Kind of scary. Pretty much exactly what I was thinking reading all this!

Kevin
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Report this Post08-07-2013 05:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sniper69Send a Private Message to sniper69Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Why not use the method in the following thread http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum9/HTML/000024.html It shows how to remove the engine from the bottom. There is even a list of tools needed. Step 34 refers to the cradle bolts and on pg 2 of that thread is a post with pics by saxman about the cradle bolts.

With the step by step and pics - someone who is new to removing an engine should be able to figure it out.
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