I did my 2.8 from the top and it was very easy! I have to take it out again to do some updates and I will do it from the top again. And will take the transmission from the top once the engine is out.
I did my 2.8 from the top and it was very easy! I have to take it out again to do some updates and I will do it from the top again. And will take the transmission from the top once the engine is out.
Originally posted by David Hambleton: With the tranny attached or without? What makes a Duke hard to install onto a manual tranny from the top?
The hard thing about mating the engine to a manual trans when dropping it in from the top in a Fiero, is aligning the clutch and input shaft. There's very little room to maneuver an engine in the bay and certainly no room for you to get down in there and have a good direct line of sight, especially with suspension, wheels, body, etc… all still in the way.
You're going to have to get under the car for some stuff anyway, so you might as well save yourself some time, and just drop it all out at once. Once it's out, everything is much easier, then all you have to do is lower the body onto the cradle, line up a few holes, tighten down the bolts, and plug all the wires and hoses back together.
Originally posted by benoitmalenfant: Brian, I've always removed the engine from a Fiero from the bottom, it seemed easier (even with the rusted bolts) than from the top. I agreed with hcforde on the general sense of his statement (giving both sides of the story and not just a blanket statement), not on his choice of method for engine removal, so unsure why I'd be included in your challenge.
Because you said "Give both sides of the story to newbies so they know they have options and what they might expect when doing both options.". The other option is take it out the top, right? Who has documented that option? So now you are reading the thread and they say "If the cradle bolt is rusted, you can take it out the top". Since there is no documentation on how to do that, we get 156 threads on "How do I remove the engine out the top?" For any of this to be helpful, there needs to be a documented secondary option and there isn't. So is anything positive accomplished?
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Originally posted by benoitmalenfant: The part where I agree with hcforde is when a newbie asks "whats the best way to remove the engine on my Fiero", instead of making a blanket statement "from the bottom" it would be nice if we (and I include myself here, not pointing fingers!) would actually say: "Remove it from the bottom BUT you might have to deal with rusted bolts", thus giving both sides of the story.
And my point is why does someone have to point out you may have to deal with rusted bolts?
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Originally posted by benoitmalenfant: Can't we just see this post as a newbie's point of a view and how we can all improve in helping newbies instead of dismissing it as "You're just a whiner, if you're not happy with it, just fix it yourself" ?
There are two things that that bother me about this thread: 1. "bottom removal of an engine being easier is a hoax" and then saying "I think a caveat needs to be up front". People put a lot of effort into building help threads, some of which have been posted for years and are archived (can't be changed), and a newbie pops in and asks them to change their hard work. Can't you see how we might get offended by this? I can see why a newbie would like it changed, but why not build your own thread with that caveat? Then it will show up in the searches... 2. "Not to start a war, however,"... Really? Have you ever noticed that when someone says "I don't mean to offend you, but...", the thing that follows "but" is usually the most offensive thing you have heard? When this thread was posted, the OP knew what was going to happen... So people really shouldn't be shocked...
Originally posted by MulletproofMonk: Because you said "Give both sides of the story to newbies so they know they have options and what they might expect when doing both options."
I can agree with that, if we're going to say there is an option to remove the engine from the top, I guess the next question will be "well, then how do I do THAT?"
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Originally posted by MulletproofMonk: And my point is why does someone have to point out you may have to deal with rusted bolts?
Well, I guess this boils down to what a newbie is expected to know and what a newbie is expected to be told. I agree that if you live in the rust belt, it is common knowledge that bolts will be rusted on your car and that if you need to be told to watch out for rusted bolts, you probably shouldn't even be attempting to remove the engine in the first place.
It also all depends on how you see the whole 'helping' thing, some people don't mind giving pointers but stop there and expect the newbies to figure the rest out themselves were others don't mind giving specific step-by-step information to help newbies.
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Originally posted by MulletproofMonk: There are two things that that bother me about this thread: 1. "bottom removal of an engine being easier is a hoax" and then saying "I think a caveat needs to be up front". People put a lot of effort into building help threads, some of which have been posted for years and are archived (can't be changed), and a newbie pops in and asks them to change their hard work. Can't you see how we might get offended by this? I can see why a newbie would like it changed, but why not build your own thread with that caveat? Then it will show up in the searches... 2. "Not to start a war, however,"... Really? Have you ever noticed that when someone says "I don't mean to offend you, but...", the thing that follows "but" is usually the most offensive thing you have heard? When this thread was posted, the OP knew what was going to happen... So people really shouldn't be shocked...
1- Yes I agree that the way the subject is written sounds somewhat aggressive, but I don't think hcforde is requesting that old threads be modified, I think it's more of a "going forward" type of thing.
2- Totally agree, same goes for "don't want to be racist but..". The choice of words in the subject might not have been the best but I think everyone can see beyond the words when we take a deep breath and understand that they were written out of frustration. The war begins when we jump right into it and start being defensive.
At the end of the day, I think hcforde is simply trying to raise a point that there is more than just one option to do something and that it needs to be told. I'm sure he'll take it upon him to show how it can be done and I will personally take it upon myself to mention the caveats of the rusty cradle when a new Fiero owner asks about removing the engine.
[This message has been edited by benoitmalenfant (edited 08-08-2013).]
you guys are helpful no doubt.I am about to remove a 2.5 with the trans.i was just wondering how high do i have to go to get the cradle out the bottom.i have floor jacks but not a lift to raise the car up with so i just need to know how high do i have to raise the body.got a whole new 2.5 and trans to go back in.got all the tools i need except a body lift garage isnt tall enough for one or id have one of then too
Originally posted by benoitmalenfant: I can agree with that, if we're going to say there is an option to remove the engine from the top, I guess the next question will be "well, then how do I do THAT?"
That is exactly it. There is no documentation on other options, just a few threads saying it has been done. That is why I put the challenge out there. I'm glad you can understand what kind of problems this could cause with potentially hundreds of new posts...
Now that I am typing this out, it would be nice if new users got an email with a tutorial on how to search and they had to complete a demo before their account was activated... But then again it chaps my butt when people post and say "I know I should search, but I didn't bother, answer my question". I just feel like people want to be spoon fed the exact answer without doing any work. That attitude only works until the old timers doing the innovative swaps stop and you are left with nothing but the people saying "gimme". I'm not necessarily talking about the forum either, just peoples attitudes in general...
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Originally posted by benoitmalenfant: I think it's more of a "going forward" type of thing. At the end of the day, I think hcforde is simply trying to raise a point that there is more than just one option to do something and that it needs to be told. I'm sure he'll take it upon him to show how it can be done and I will personally take it upon myself to mention the caveats of the rusty cradle when a new Fiero owner asks about removing the engine.
And that also makes my point. If it is a big issue with 156 threads or whatever, maybe he should take it upon himself to make a thread to cover it (and help the community). I (personally) feel that he IS asking everyone else to cover that concern. I joined in 2005 and was doing poly on my car. At the time the only poly threads showed a before picture with rubber and a completed picture with the poly. It frustrated me so bad that Madess and I rolled up our sleeves and documented the poly bushing writeup on my car. At some point the newbies have to get dirty and contribute...
If someone wants to bring me a stock car (and help), I would be happy to document pulling the motor out the top. I only have one stock car and it is for sale, so I'm not screwing with it (unless someone wants to buy it and contribute it). The other two are a 3800na and a 3800sc (in process)...
you guys are helpful no doubt.I am about to remove a 2.5 with the trans.i was just wondering how high do i have to go to get the cradle out the bottom.i have floor jacks but not a lift to raise the car up with so i just need to know how high do i have to raise the body.got a whole new 2.5 and trans to go back in.got all the tools i need except a body lift garage isnt tall enough for one or id have one of then too
There is no straight answer to that one. If you are building a dolly to wheel the cradle around on, you need the height of the dolly plus the engine on the cradle plus 2 inches to cover a mistake in my horrible public school math skills...
I have an engine hoist. I lower the whole car onto the dolly, finish unbolting it, raise the back end with the hoist and put mu jack stands under the car. If you don't have an engine hoist you basically have to do the same thing but with a car jack and piece of 4x4...
you guys are helpful no doubt.I am about to remove a 2.5 with the trans.i was just wondering how high do i have to go to get the cradle out the bottom.i have floor jacks but not a lift to raise the car up with so i just need to know how high do i have to raise the body.got a whole new 2.5 and trans to go back in.got all the tools i need except a body lift garage isnt tall enough for one or id have one of then too
Rod, using the floor jack with a 4x4 in the mid-section of the Fiero method, I'm able to remove the 2.8 in my garage with a 7 foot ceiling.
I've never measured exactly how much I raised the car but my floor jack isn't lifted all the way up when I do it, so I would say something like 18-20 inches at the 4x4 location is enough to get the engine out and my dolly is about 8 inches tall.
i looked at that post and im sure i will be able to do it like that just wasnt sure how high it needed to be.Didn't want to try a bottom out if i wasn't able to lift it high enough to get it out.but it looks like its not going to be a problem.does the fiero store sell the cradle bolts new
Originally posted by MulletproofMonk: Now that I am typing this out, it would be nice if new users got an email with a tutorial on how to search and they had to complete a demo before their account was activated... But then again it chaps my butt when people post and say "I know I should search, but I didn't bother, answer my question". I just feel like people want to be spoon fed the exact answer without doing any work. That attitude only works until the old timers doing the innovative swaps stop and you are left with nothing but the people saying "gimme". I'm not necessarily talking about the forum either, just peoples attitudes in general...
I totally agree that there is a good amount of the "google syndrome" out there (trying to find everything on the internet before even attempting to do it). I personally like to do my research first when I'm doing something new, but at some point I know I'll have to figure some of the stuff out by myself otherwise I'll never do it.
Some people are so scared to screw anything up that they will systematically request step-by-step instructions and stop at the very first speed bump. What I'm going to say will sound like 'old school vs new generation', but just 15-20 years ago, the internet wasn't as much part of our everyday lives and there was only so much reading you could do before attempting something you had never done. People just went out there and tried as good as they could and accepted that they might make a mistake and would have to redo everything etc. Nowadays we are so used to finding everything on the internet that it has become our first reflex at the expense of the 'try-it' attitude.
I don't think that an e-mail with details on how to do a search would actually get rid of the lazy users. If they're too lazy to actually use the search function and even admit so in their question thread, nothing outside of not getting any answers to their question will accomplish anything. Thing is, when you ask a question on here, you always get an answer. Might not be an answer in great details but it still contributes to positively reinforce the "gimme-gimme" attitude. If the only answers these users would be given was "search for it, there are plenty of threads on this forum about this", it would eventually change their attitude (or maybe they would simply not come back!).
Anyhow, I'm glad we could discuss this in a civil manner even if the subject is slippery
[This message has been edited by benoitmalenfant (edited 08-08-2013).]
i looked at that post and im sure i will be able to do it like that just wasnt sure how high it needed to be.Didn't want to try a bottom out if i wasn't able to lift it high enough to get it out.but it looks like its not going to be a problem.does the fiero store sell the cradle bolts new
Make sure that if you are in a garage and have your decklid open you don't raise it into the open garage door... it makes a painful noise...
Originally posted by benoitmalenfant: What I'm going to say will sound like 'old school vs new generation', but just 15-20 years ago, the internet wasn't as much part of our everyday lives and there was only so much reading you could do before attempting something you had never done. Nowadays we are so used to finding everything on the internet that it has become our first reflex at the expense of the 'try-it' attitude.
Anyhow, I'm glad we could discuss this in a civil manner even if the subject is slippery
I post that exact comment about using the manual and then having to just do it. We used to say "**** or get off the pot". My son is 21 and part of the new generation. He would rather text someone in the same room rather than talk to them. I think that is crazy. I would prefer to talk on the phone (sniper69 can tell you we talked for more than 90 minutes yesterday about everything and nothing all at the same time).
There was never an intent from me to be hostile, I just want people to contribute rather than put there hand out waiting to be given something. This thread didn't help anything and has chewed up time we could all be working on our cars. I could have cut out 20 rusted cradles in the time I have wasted...
I post that exact comment about using the manual and then having to just do it. We used to say "**** or get off the pot". My son is 21 and part of the new generation. He would rather text someone in the same room rather than talk to them. I think that is crazy. I would prefer to talk on the phone (sniper69 can tell you we talked for more than 90 minutes yesterday about everything and nothing all at the same time).
There was never an intent from me to be hostile, I just want people to contribute rather than put there hand out waiting to be given something. This thread didn't help anything and has chewed up time we could all be working on our cars. I could have cut out 20 rusted cradles in the time I have wasted...
And it was a great talking on the phone with you too. I'd hate to think how long it would have taken to have texted all of what we talked about, lol.
Which is the best way to do a manual tranny or clutch swap? Out the top? Drop the cradle? Or out the left side, with the cradle tilted?
<ducking and running>
Can't tilt the cradle on the 88, it has to be out of the way. I use an engine support brace, one of those 'fancy tools' mentioned. Then out the left side.
"Most people coming into this do not have these cutting tools"
If you don't have tools, you really can't work on anything.
Buy a new car
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. If you have a air compressor, something very helpful when working on cars, why wouldn't you have a die grinder? Heck, Harbor Freight commonly has a pneumatic cut off tool (die grinder set up specifically for cut off wheels) coupon commonly come up that gets you one free with any purchase. I've got 2 of them in my garage opened and 2 more sitting new in box.
The '86 2.5L cradle bolts are somewhat rusty. If I take the alternator & bracket off, I think the clutch will slide off the 5 speed trans splined shaft so the engine can be hoisted out the top. I'm thinking that the hassle of lining up the '87 engine to the trans might be less time & trouble than messing with the rusted cradle bolts...
Has anyone removed & replaced a 2.5L from the top without pulling the 5 speed trans with it?
I have never pulled an engine on a Fiero, but it couldn't be that difficult either way. Then again I have done several successful engine swaps so its something that I would have no issue tackling. I have watched the 30 minute video of dropping an engine from the botom on Youtube, and its pretty straightforward. With that being said, these instructions of pulling the engine out of the top seems fairly simple as well.
Thanks; that's a good guide. I took the '87 donor 2.5L out the top with the 5 speed trans attached without any issues, pretty much as shown.
I'm hoping someone who has done a remove & replace of a 2.5L without removing the manual trans can comment on the hassle of lining up the clutch with the trans shaft versus the hassle of rusty cradle bolts.
I removed the drivetrain in October after picking up a 1988 "T-Top" in California along with parts stripped from a '88 notchie(about everything but the frame and motor) . I removed it my way, by cutting off the back and removing it from the back. The carriage bolts were a major PITA. This way gave me a lot more room to do the deed. After that the holiday season and other issues has kept me away from the forum. I thank all that chimed in.
If you have seized cradle bolts, replace them! How can a person put their lives on the line with a known issue? If the bolt is degraded enough to seize, then it's integrity comes into question.
Continue on...
Where do you get your replacement cradle bolts from?
I do not know who you are addressing with the above comment but everyday people attempt things without knowing what lies ahead. Sometimes they do just give up. Sometimes they voice their issues to find if they are doing something wrong or if there is a better way to do it. Sometimes they are just blowing off steam. Forums are here to assist people in working through the difficulty so your statement seems to be misplaced.
I do not know who you are addressing with the above comment but everyday people attempt things without knowing what lies ahead. Sometimes they do just give up. Sometimes they voice their issues to find if they are doing something wrong or if there is a better way to do it. Sometimes they are just blowing off steam. Forums are here to assist people in working through the difficulty so your statement seems to be misplaced.
I understand what you are saying, however, your title to this thread is admittedly excessive along with the comments about cutting bolts. Let's be honest, cradle bolts are minor things when dealing with pulling engines etc.
I do agree that we all need to blow off steam and that the forums are a great source of information. I just thought that it was a bit of an over reaction, but yes, sometimes things can be frustrating.
Edit to add: My comments are not intended as a personal insult, just what I thought was a reasonable question based on your comments.
[This message has been edited by Sourmug (edited 04-22-2014).]
I pulled the engine out of my 84 two weeks ago, and I went out of the top, simply because I am only home on the weekends, and my dad still needed to be able to move the car around to get stuff out for spring.
It was really not that difficult. Pulled to deck lid, the hinges, evap canister, then pulled the engine and trans out as one.
I got the passenger axle out of the trans by pulling the connecting rod and strut off the knuckle, and between bending the knuckle away from the car and the compression on the tri-pot there was enough room to get it free. Then once the engine was hanging, just above the trans mounts, it was very easy to pop the other axle free, then just pull the engine away from it. I don't think I needed to even compress that tri-pot at all.
Only issue I had was that I had the chain too long the first time I lifted, and didn't have enough travel to get it all the way out. So back down it went to get the chain shorter. But that was user error. Nothing wrong with the process.
There was only one thing that I did have to cut to get the unit out, the two bolts on the exhaust down pipe. But no surprise there.
The professional removes the engine by dropping the cradle. Even someone with minimal skills can get the engine out this way in about 4 hours, with two people working on it as low as 2 hours. Dropping the cradle allows 1. replacement of the cradle bushings and motor mounts with poly or aluminum (beneficial for performance) , 2 easier cleaning and painting of cradle and engine compartment, 3. easier alignment and hook up to the transmission 4. harness comes out with everything still attached to the engine/transmission. 5. if you make a dolly the drivetrain just rolls to where ever you need it to work on it. Yes some people successfully remove the engine from the top but the cradle drop is the preferred way. Your choice!
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
The professional removes the engine by dropping the cradle. Even someone with minimal skills can get the engine out this way in about 4 hours, with two people working on it as low as 2 hours. Dropping the cradle allows 1. replacement of the cradle bushings and motor mounts with poly or aluminum (beneficial for performance) , 2 easier cleaning and painting of cradle and engine compartment, 3. easier alignment and hook up to the transmission 4. harness comes out with everything still attached to the engine/transmission. 5. if you make a dolly the drivetrain just rolls to where ever you need it to work on it. Yes some people successfully remove the engine from the top but the cradle drop is the preferred way. Your choice!
The professional isn't reading this forum to get tips on how to deal with a 25 year old car. He/she probably has every tool imaginable at his or her fingertips also. It took me more than 4 hours just to get one of the bolts off. This car had been sitting in a field for about 12 years. I bought it for the parts. It was the first Fiero I have owned since 1990 when I sold the one I had since 1984 because I first child was on her way.
I do have a 1988GT that has been garaged all of its life and I am sure THAT one will be a lot easier to remove the engine from when it needs to be worked on and 4 hours seem like it might work. I also have 4 more purchased within the last year. The ones I love the most is the 1988GT I just mentioned, and a T-top 1988GT(non-running) that I will be restoring from the ground up.My 1986 notchie runs well and is my get around car when I don't need my SUV. My others are non running with transmission issues(1985 automatic will not shift into gear, and 1987 GT only goes forward. So I have plenty of chances to try the bottom removal procedure for transmissions and an engine.
I've never had a problem with the cradle bolts being that my car has lived 95% of it's life in South Florida... but that said... I still find it immensely easier to remove the engine from the top. I've done so twice.
I have to think... lifting an entire car so I can slide an engine out the bottom, or lifting the engine and transmission separately through the top... I found pulling the engine and transmission out the top to be easier.
FYI, I only removed the cradle bolts so I could install poly bushings.
Not to start a war, however, bottom removal of an engine being easier is a hoax! by hcforde
not to start a war, but the easiest way is to have a lift and remove it from the bottom, anyone who is working on a 25+ year old car and not expecting some things to not come out as easy as a new car shouldn't even be working on them, to use an older than me fraise,
"Sh!t happens!"
being prepared with more tools than you think you need is kind of par for the course when it comes to working on any older car or truck. I can't remember the amount of times I have had to borrow, rent or even buy tools to finish a job and I have more tools than Carters has liver pills.
sawsalls are cheap enough to buy nowadays and handier than any tool I have ever had, I even just replaced my old one with sears battery one just for portability and so my wife can use it rather than one of my chainsaws, I worry about her using that, kickback and such. paid like 50 bucks at sears and already had extra batteries and chargers so it wasn't like it was a real big expense on a tool I would rarely use again. Thay have so many different blades available for them that I think everyone should have at least one, I now have 3.
When I was working for a living I learned a long time ago when you buy a tool, buy 2, one for the Job Box and one for at home. And if I could afford it buy a third so when its Sunday or 3 AM I can finish the job without interruption. the most time consuming part of working on anything can be down time when you are looking for or have to go buy, rent, or borrow a tool.
now as far as the easiest way to do this job in particular, the easiest way is to pay someone else to do it who has the experience and tools to do it the quickest.
But that is not what you are complaining about now is it, you are complaining about having to cut a bolt on a 25+ year old car, and not being told ahead of time. Stop the wining and get the job done, I have made tools for jobs I didn't have the right tool for, some are my own inventions for things most people don't do except the people who work on something for a living.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Not to start a war, however, bottom removal of an engine being easier is a hoax! by hcforde
not to start a war, but the easiest way is to have a lift and remove it from the bottom, anyone who is working on a 25+ year old car and not expecting some things to not come out as easy as a new car shouldn't even be working on them, to use an older than me fraise,
"Sh!t happens!"
being prepared with more tools than you think you need is kind of par for the course when it comes to working on any older car or truck. I can't remember the amount of times I have had to borrow, rent or even buy tools to finish a job and I have more tools than Carters has liver pills.
sawsalls are cheap enough to buy nowadays and handier than any tool I have ever had, I even just replaced my old one with sears battery one just for portability and so my wife can use it rather than one of my chainsaws, I worry about her using that, kickback and such. paid like 50 bucks at sears and already had extra batteries and chargers so it wasn't like it was a real big expense on a tool I would rarely use again. Thay have so many different blades available for them that I think everyone should have at least one, I now have 3.
When I was working for a living I learned a long time ago when you buy a tool, buy 2, one for the Job Box and one for at home. And if I could afford it buy a third so when its Sunday or 3 AM I can finish the job without interruption. the most time consuming part of working on anything can be down time when you are looking for or have to go buy, rent, or borrow a tool.
now as far as the easiest way to do this job in particular, the easiest way is to pay someone else to do it who has the experience and tools to do it the quickest.
But that is not what you are complaining about now is it, you are complaining about having to cut a bolt on a 25+ year old car, and not being told ahead of time. Stop the wining and get the job done, I have made tools for jobs I didn't have the right tool for, some are my own inventions for things most people don't do except the people who work on something for a living.
Steve
All sounds good on paper.
The job is done and now I have a bunch of tools. The main thing is for people to read this and have an idea upfront what may be headed their way in the form of time consumption, labor, and expense. New people coming in may be put off when the cost of any of the three things mentioned above becomes too much if they are not told upfront. Which would you rather have first, the good news or the bad news? I prefer the bad news, then I can prepare. There is an old saying, being 'for warned' is being 'for armed'. Abe Lincoln once said, "If I have 8 hours to cut down a tree, I am going to spend the first 6 sharpening my axe." My principle in life is that I want to know how to prepare for the battle I must face in anything. I think it is a whis choice. That means knowing what can go wrong because it probably will.
Your assumption that everyone that is going to tackle a 25 year old car knows that they should buy an abundance of tools up front, they dont. Once you have tried an engine removal in an old Fiero you very well may end up with them as I did. I was determined because I owned a Fiero in 1984. I also owned quite a few sports cars before then and removed numerous engines. To keep this car alive you need the more people interested, not less. I believe that full disclosure will ensure a greater influx of people and decrease disapointment.
Another old saying is this, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, then everything you see looks like a nail. Also, "More than one way to skin a cat"
TOP vs Bottom; what ever works for the individual is what is more important than what the professionals do. You only have to look at the original statement to see the intent.
The job is done and now I have a bunch of tools. The main thing is for people to read this and have an idea upfront what may be headed their way in the form of time consumption, labor, and expense. New people coming in may be put off when the cost of any of the three things mentioned above becomes too much if they are not told upfront. Which would you rather have first, the good news or the bad news? I prefer the bad news, then I can prepare. There is an old saying, being 'for warned' is being 'for armed'. Abe Lincoln once said, "If I have 8 hours to cut down a tree, I am going to spend the first 6 sharpening my axe." My principle in life is that I want to know how to prepare for the battle I must face in anything. I think it is a whis choice. That means knowing what can go wrong because it probably will.
Your assumption that everyone that is going to tackle a 25 year old car knows that they should buy an abundance of tools up front, they dont. Once you have tried an engine removal in an old Fiero you very well may end up with them as I did. I was determined because I owned a Fiero in 1984. I also owned quite a few sports cars before then and removed numerous engines. To keep this car alive you need the more people interested, not less. I believe that full disclosure will ensure a greater influx of people and decrease disapointment.
Another old saying is this, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, then everything you see looks like a nail. Also, "More than one way to skin a cat"
TOP vs Bottom; what ever works for the individual is what is more important than what the professionals do. You only have to look at the original statement to see the intent.
if you had read before hand all the threads about this subject instead of just a couple you would have seen that many people have trouble removing the bolts you are so pissed about and have forewarned people that may be a problem. one thread does not a knowledgably person make. unless you are other than what you think you are.
Sorry you started this but for anyone to think that everything is going to go perfect because they read something on a forum on the idiotnet is just, how can I put it so I don't hurt someone's feelings, Stupid. nothing goes by the numbers when you are working on a car or truck 25+ years old. a newbie or an old hand should know that. anything can and does go wrong when working on vehicles, even brand new ones, I know I was repair at a GM assembly plant.
but the easiest way is to have a lift and remove it from the bottom, 
anyone who is working on a 25+ year old car and not expecting some things to not come out as easy as a new car shouldn't even be working on them, to use an older than me fraise,
