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CASE Learn on 3800SC, need help! by Rare87GT
Started on: 07-26-2013 01:45 AM
Replies: 10 (414 views)
Last post by: Darth Fiero on 07-29-2013 02:31 PM
Rare87GT
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Report this Post07-26-2013 01:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rare87GTClick Here to Email Rare87GTSend a Private Message to Rare87GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Issue:

I was trying to do the CASE learn on the car now with the new SFI Balancer from ZZP and the new crank sensor, thought it was a good idea to do that. It says on their site it's recommended but not required to do, but I want to do it to be safe and not cut any corners. I use HP Tuners, not sure what tuning software you all use, but when I go into Special and then CASE learn, it keeps telling me Not Ready Vehicle Moving when I have the brake pedal pressed. The function can't complete unless it detects the car is in park. Is that the case because I don't have the wiring hooked up in the PCM right with the TCC error code I'm getting with that PO719 error? If so, what wiring do I need to do so I fix that issue? Not sure how to complete the Learn without that. Didn't know if you had any input or options you knew of. Anyways, is there a trick or what do I need to do? Also, if I don't end up completing the CASE learn does it make a huge difference if I drive the car, etc? I don't know what it all does when you do the CASE learn.

Thanks,
Amir

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phonedawgz
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Report this Post07-26-2013 09:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So why isn't your TCC brake input switch working correctly?

PCM Pin 30 Blue is the TCC Brake Input Switch. That wire should connect to C203 Pin P. That wire should have +12v on it when the brake pedal is at rest.

If you are not getting +12v on C203 P, check the switch is at the brake pedal. The switch has a purple wire (that runs to C203 P) and a Pink/Black wire (power from the gauges fuse)

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 07-26-2013).]

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Rare87GT
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Report this Post07-27-2013 01:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rare87GTClick Here to Email Rare87GTSend a Private Message to Rare87GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

So why isn't your TCC brake input switch working correctly?

PCM Pin 30 Blue is the TCC Brake Input Switch. That wire should connect to C203 Pin P. That wire should have +12v on it when the brake pedal is at rest.

If you are not getting +12v on C203 P, check the switch is at the brake pedal. The switch has a purple wire (that runs to C203 P) and a Pink/Black wire (power from the gauges fuse)




Hey man, thank you for the information, greatly appreciated! Will let you know when I get a chance to look at it!

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BV MotorSports
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Report this Post07-27-2013 01:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Timm (phonedawgz) knows his stuff!
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darkhorizon
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Report this Post07-27-2013 02:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You will also need the gear input selector functioning correctly as well.. Its also just a giant pain in the a$$ to get the case learn process to kick.. there are a bunch of other rules that need to be met as well such as coolant temp and runtime.

if you have misfire detection and KR detection working, then you 100% do not need a case learn.
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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post07-27-2013 04:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:

if you have misfire detection and KR detection working, then you 100% do not need a case learn.


I don't know where you get your information but it is incorrect.

First off, the knock detection system has nothing to do with the misfire detection system nor a CASE Learn. Misfire detection, the P0300 codes, and the CASE Learn code can all be completely disabled in the tune and this will not affect the knock detection / knock retard system operation.

IF a CASE Learn is NOT done BUT IS required, and you disable the CASE Learn code but leave the misfire detection system and related codes enabled, the computer will likely continuously register misfires and eventually set a misfire code. I had this happen on the LS4 swap I recently completed in which I could not do a CASE Learn on because of the missing BPP Sensor / BCM.

The purpose of the CASE Learn is for the ECM/PCM to "learn" the absolute position of the crank sensor reluctor wheel in relation to actual crankshaft position (among other things) so misfires can be accurately detected. The presence of a P1336/P0315 CASE Learn code will prevent the ECM/PCM from running the misfire diagnostics.

If you don't have a CASE Learn code setting, then you don't absolutely need to do a CASE Learn procedure. But I always make a habit of performing a CASE Learn when using an ECM/PCM on an engine it did not originally come with even if the code does not set.

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[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 07-27-2013).]

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post07-28-2013 11:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
The purpose of the CASE Learn is for the ECM/PCM to "learn" the absolute position of the crank sensor reluctor wheel in relation to actual crankshaft position


Uh? The crankshaft has 2 reluctor wheels cut out of the same hunk of steel, there is nothing to "learn" on the crankshaft 3x wheel in relation to the 18x wheel. Increasing the gain or whatever of these sensors to read the wheel and account for any possible issues with the wheel would make sense, but its unlikely that it really matters all that much if you have parts that are not broken.

 
quote
First off, the knock detection system has nothing to do with the misfire detection system nor a CASE Learn.


This is just wrong. The only 2 cars i have run across that needed a case learn that didnt report any KR before, but tons after.
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Report this Post07-29-2013 12:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:

Uh? The crankshaft has 2 reluctor wheels cut out of the same hunk of steel, there is nothing to "learn" on the crankshaft 3x wheel in relation to the 18x wheel. Increasing the gain or whatever of these sensors to read the wheel and account for any possible issues with the wheel would make sense, but its unlikely that it really matters all that much if you have parts that are not broken.



You were clearly not reading exactly what I said in my previous post. Let me repeat myself:

The purpose of the CASE Learn is for the ECM/PCM to "learn" the absolute position of the crank sensor reluctor wheel in relation to actual crankshaft position (among other things) so misfires can be accurately detected. Where did I say anything about the 3x and 18x portions of the crank reluctor? Nowhere, because I didn't say it.

Here's what the GM service manual has to say about the CASE Learn:

 
quote

DTC P1336 Crankshaft Position (CKP) System Variation Not Learned
Circuit Description
The crankshaft position system variation learning feature is used to calculate reference period errors caused by slight tolerance variations in the crankshaft, the crankshaft balancer interrupter rings, and the crankshaft position sensor hall effect switches. The calculated error allows the PCM to accurately compensate for reference period varations. This enhances the ability of the PCM to detect misfire events over a wider range of engine speed and load.

The crankshaft position system variation values are stored in the PCM non-volatile memory after a learn procedure has been performed. DTC P1336 set indicates that the crankshaft position system variation values have not been stored in the PCM and the crankshaft position system variation learn procedure must be performed. The learn procedure is required after the following service procedures have been performed, regardless of whether or not DTC P1336 is set:

• PCM replacement.

• Engine replacement.

• Crankshaft replacement.

• Crankshaft balancer replacement.

• Crankshaft position sensor replacement.

• Any engine repairs which disturbs crankshaft/harmonic balancer to crankshaft position sensor relationship.

Conditions for Running the DTC
• No CMP or CKP sensor DTCs set.

• Engine Coolant Temperature is greater than 70°C (158°F).

Conditions for Setting the DTC
Crankshaft position system variation values are not stored in the PCM memory.

Action Taken When the DTC Sets
• The PCM will illuminate the MIL during the first trip in which the diagnostic test has been run and failed.

• The PCM will store conditions which were present when the DTC set as Freeze Frame and Fail Records data.

Conditions for Clearing the MIL/DTC
• The PCM will turn the MIL OFF during the third consecutive trip in which the diagnostic has been run and passed.

• The history DTC will clear after 40 consecutive warm-up cycles have occurred without a malfunction.

• The DTC can be cleared by using the scan tool Clear Info function or by disconnecting the PCM battery feed.

Diagnostic Aids
The crankshaft position system variation compensating values are stored in the PCM non-volatile memory after a learn procedure has been performed. If the actual crankshaft position variation is no within the crankshaft position system variation compensating values stored in the PCM, DTC P0300 may set (refer to Diagnostic Aids for DTC P0300).

The crankshaft position system variation learn procedure must be performed when replacing the PCM to clear DTC P1336. The crankshaft position system variation learn procedure is also required when the following service procedures have been performed, regardless of whether or not DTC P1336 is set:

• Engine replacement.

• Crankshaft replacement.

• Crankshaft balancer replacement.

• Crankshaft position sensor replacement.

• Any engine repair(s) which disturbs crankshaft/harmonic balancer to crankshaft position sensor relationship.





 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:
The only 2 cars i have run across that needed a case learn that didnt report any KR before, but tons after.


First off, if you have a P0315 or P1336 code set w/ check engine light on, why are you beating on the engine enough to generate detonation/KR? Who does that? Why would you do that? Why wouldn't you just get the CASE Learn done (or disable the CASE Learn code) BEFORE you give the engine enough throttle to where it could generate KR?

Secondly, the LS4 swap I just finished DID set a CASE Learn code, but I had to disable that code as well as the misfire codes because I could not do a CASE Learn due to the missing BPP Sensor & BCM. And guess what? The KR system did work JUST FINE and did detect KR without having the CASE Learn done (even though it was needed).

I don't make a habit of beating on cars that have codes set and check engine lights on unless I'm trying to troubleshoot whatever is causing those codes to set. So could having an ACTIVE CASE Learn code set cause the KR system to not work properly? Can't say yes or no to that because I would never beat on anything that has an active CASE Learn code set without either doing a CASE Learn first to clear that code or to disable that code in a custom tune.


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darkhorizon
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Report this Post07-29-2013 10:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
the LS4 swap I just finished DID set a CASE Learn code,


Great, go make a thread discussing case learns and ls4s then.

 
quote
So could having an ACTIVE CASE Learn code set cause the KR system to not work properly? Can't say yes or no to that because I would never beat on anything that has an active CASE Learn code set without either doing a CASE Learn first to clear that code or to disable that code in a custom tune.


So are you saying I am wrong because you never bothered to find out? And where did I say I was the one doing these before and after comparisons? The particularly cases I am talking about were people that brouht their cars to me saying "well i dont have KR or misfires but it still has this code, can you do a case learn". Blame the customers for my information, but I dont see why you needed to type 3 paragraphs telling me that trying to learn how stuff works is a bad idea.

 
quote
The purpose of the CASE Learn is for the ECM/PCM to "learn" the absolute position of the crank sensor reluctor wheel in relation to actual crankshaft position (among other things) so misfires can be accurately detected. Where did I say anything about the 3x and 18x portions of the crank reluctor? Nowhere, because I didn't say it.


Well, its clear to me you just dont know what you are talking about, and again just copy pasting GM service manual information. You didnt say it because you have no clue what is going on.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 07-29-2013).]

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Rare87GT
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Report this Post07-29-2013 01:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rare87GTClick Here to Email Rare87GTSend a Private Message to Rare87GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That's kind of what I thought about the misfires and code since everything is in perfect working order. I still want to fix the 719 error code for the TCC. So I will see where that takes me.


Thanks guys for the help!
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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post07-29-2013 02:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:


Well, its clear to me you just dont know what you are talking about, and again just copy pasting GM service manual information. You didnt say it because you have no clue what is going on.



You've made so many wild claims in the past about how YOU THINK stuff works it has been made quite clear to everyone who knows better that YOU are the one that has little clue how stuff actually works. Suffice it to say, the list is too long to post in a single forum thread. You have been laughed off of so many forums, I lost count (not that I care anyway). Then you come on here and accuse me of copy and paste? If that's not the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is...

I am glad to hear that you are finally starting to make an effort to learn about how stuff actually works vs. what you have been doing (and that's just repeating what you read on the internet and then trying to act like you were the one that said it first). Although I think your time could be better spent on another subject that could actually be useful rather than the current one.

It has been well known since before you ever appeared on this forum that people should NOT beat on their cars if you have an active CASE Learn code set. This subject was discussed many years ago on the 3800pro forum and others. IIRC, at that time, it was said that if a CASE Learn code was active, the timing advance could be altered to a point that engine damage could occur. I do not recall if they ever specifically said the knock detection system would be disabled or not but the point was made that it would be a bad thing to beat on a car that had an active CASE Learn code. So we didn't.

I guess I just didn't see any point in investing a lot of time and risking an engine to see exactly what the PCM does when there is an active CASE Learn code. WHY WOULD I? WHAT'S THE POINT? I would either just do the CASE Learn or disable the CASE Learn and misfire diagnostics in a custom tune and THEN drive it. We already know the knock detection system works fine if the CASE Learn and misfire diagnostics are disabled in the tune.


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