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Need suggestions for learning to tune OBD2 by Bridgetown
Started on: 07-20-2013 05:15 PM
Replies: 16 (536 views)
Last post by: DimeMachine on 07-23-2013 10:47 PM
Bridgetown
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Report this Post07-20-2013 05:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I want to learn to tune obd2. Has anyone got any tutorials to suggest I read. I'm not looking for explanations on basic stuff, I have a good grasp on that. I would like more specific details on what to chane and how for various things. I'm planning to use HPtuners
I found this one which is good.
http://www.turbov6camaro.com/tune.htm

More like this would be good.
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Report this Post07-20-2013 07:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DimeMachineSend a Private Message to DimeMachineEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If I had it to do over again, I would purchase Greg banishes book (Engine management advance tuning) right away - best 12 bucks you will ever spend to get you more of a background. Also tons of info on the HP tuners sites and other sites.

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84 NB, 3800SC, E-85, VS Cam, 3.0 Pulley, 4T65E-HD, HP Tuners, AEM Wideband, Regal GS Gauges, S-10 Brake Booster. 1/4 mile -12.05 at 111.7mph

[This message has been edited by DimeMachine (edited 07-21-2013).]

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ConvictedRedneck
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Report this Post07-21-2013 09:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ConvictedRedneckClick Here to Email ConvictedRedneckSend a Private Message to ConvictedRedneckEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm in the same boat but with OBD1. It seems all there is online is 'how' to tune (what programs, etc.) but nothing comprehensive on the theory of what/how much different parameters need to be changed. It's sad but I forgot about good 'ol BOOKS.

Are there any similar books for OBD1?

------------------

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NetCam
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Report this Post07-21-2013 10:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NetCamClick Here to visit NetCam's HomePageSend a Private Message to NetCamEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DimeMachine:

If I had it to do over again, I would purchase Greg banishes book (Engine management advance tuning) right away - best 12 bucks you will ever spend to get you more of a background. Also tons of info on the HP tuners sites and other sites.


If you got it for $12, obviously you have a better source that Amazon!



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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-21-2013 10:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That book is available on ebay and other places for $18-$40. Just google "Greg Banish Engine Management". The Amazon link must be someone preying in the people who don't price check.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 07-21-2013).]

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Report this Post07-21-2013 10:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I just purchased Greg's book for $10.38 from Amazon.ca
Any other reading to suggest
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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-21-2013 01:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
OBD2 is quite vague... narrow down your search to the actual ECM and engine family you will be using, then search the forums for the same engine application using that ecm, then focus on finding threads/guides for similar mods.

For example, on the LS V8 side, there are quite a few computers, Gen 3 24x & Gen 4 58X, drive by cable, drive by wire, DBW w/ TAC module, DBW w/o TAC module, legitimate VE tables, coefficient equations... so from ecm to ecm there are significant changes to tables/settings/formats that can be adjusted. So reading up on say the 411 LS1 ecm (24x DBC) does little to educate you on tuning an LS4 with the E67 ecm (58x DBW). Sure you can learn about tuning the MAF, but dialing in the Base Running Airflow is different, the E67 spark table is shown in Cylinder Airmass vs RPM not the more traditional MAP vs RPM (411), and it wont tell you how to go about tuning the drive by wire throttle body, or how to get a VE tune using the coefficient equations, etc... If tuning a Gen 4 ECM (like the E67) you are better off focusing on tuning guides/information for the Gen 4 (E38/E67) vs. any other guides out there. They will all have good info, but a lot of it will not be directly applicable.

OBD2 is complicated, so focus on learning about the ECM you will be using, from those who have used it on similar engines and with similar mods.


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NetCam
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Report this Post07-21-2013 01:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NetCamClick Here to visit NetCam's HomePageSend a Private Message to NetCamEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bridgetown:

I just purchased Greg's book for $10.38 from Amazon.ca
Any other reading to suggest


I'm guessing you got the Kindle version? Paperback shows $22.93, which is a far cry from the other one (Which probably is somebody just hoping to soak somebody not paying attention). Just wondering if having an eReader version would be OK, or if you would need the physical book to take to the car. Can anybody comment on the size of the book, is it a paperback paperback or like a Haynes manual sized paperback?
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AkursedX
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Report this Post07-21-2013 07:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AkursedXClick Here to Email AkursedXSend a Private Message to AkursedXEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

OBD2 is quite vague... narrow down your search to the actual ECM and engine family you will be using, then search the forums for the same engine application using that ecm, then focus on finding threads/guides for similar mods.


Very true. My engine-tuning started with HPTuners and my 3800sc Fiero. I learned a lot from scouring message boards like ClubGP and the HPT forum. I developed my own style of likes and dislikes along the way and did some tuning for a few other people with 3800's. I then picked up a Chevy Tahoe and started playing around with that. I assumed that it would be quite similar to the 3800sc as far as adjustments but I found myself working in different tables and it really wasn't anything like the 3800 except for the interface.

In recent months I have started learning the ins-and-outs of COBB Access Tuner RACE as both my RX8 and WRX have COBB tunes on them. These two cars have proven to be absolutely nothing alike (which wasn't much of a surprise since one's a rotary and the other is a boxer-4) and this tuning interface is nothing like HPTuners. The tables for each car are totally different and it's been quite the learning experience. I have not done anything significant as of yet since I am still learning what tables I should be working in and what tables affect them.

Now, there are similarities in OBD2 tuning systems. Adjustments in airflow, fueling, ignition timing and sometimes boost is what's at the core of the tuning. What you need to find out is what the general 'ideal' is for the tune for the particular engine is that you are tuning and work towards that.

------------------
'11 Subaru WRX
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post07-21-2013 08:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You can get loads of information from the HP Tuners online forum.
http://www.hptuners.com/forum/

Once you start understanding how the tables work and how the values affect fuel and/or spark in OBD II, the tuning task is easier than with the old E3 ECM'S.
To start out disable the codes (DTC's) that are not needed. Then disable the antitheft feature. Next scan your engine under all operating conditions (preferably with a wideband O2 sensor) and if you make adjustments, keep them slight (unless something major on the engine has changed) , watch the KR's. Then measure power with a dash unit or on a dyno. That should point you in the right direction. The process is more complex than this so read read read and ask questions.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
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1fast2m4
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Report this Post07-21-2013 09:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 1fast2m4Send a Private Message to 1fast2m4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That book for $599 also includes a single admission to a tuning seminar, where they actually show you how to use HP Tuners as well as some SCT & AEM stuff. I'd make sure they are still putting them on before I planned on that though.

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Report this Post07-21-2013 10:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

OBD2 is quite vague... narrow down your search to the actual ECM and engine family you will be using, then search the forums for the same engine application using that ecm, then focus on finding threads/guides for similar mods.



Ok, I will be more specific. I am working on a 3400 5 speed. It's running on a grand am ecu (2002).
Things I'm interested in learning to do:
Tune Afr in wot ( I have a wide band)
Tune for larger injectors
Convert to a speed density setup ( adding itb's)
Adjust accel. Enrichment
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MazdaManiac
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Report this Post07-22-2013 01:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MazdaManiacClick Here to visit MazdaManiac's HomePageClick Here to Email MazdaManiacSend a Private Message to MazdaManiacEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AkursedX:
In recent months I have started learning the ins-and-outs of COBB Access Tuner RACE as both my RX8 and WRX have COBB tunes on them. These two cars have proven to be absolutely nothing alike (which wasn't much of a surprise since one's a rotary and the other is a boxer-4) and this tuning interface is nothing like HPTuners. The tables for each car are totally different and it's been quite the learning experience. I have not done anything significant as of yet since I am still learning what tables I should be working in and what tables affect them.



Why didn't you ever come back to finish your RX-8 tune? We left off at v4.0.2, so we never even got to part of the calibration process where your fuel and spark tables get optimized.

The HPTuner software is actually quite a bit like the AccessTUNER software - just the names and units are different. GM 3800 engines are significantly easier to tune than the RX-8, though.
Not only is the margin of error much wider, the motor reacts to changes in a predictable way and the knock detection routine is actually useable.
My Fiero went from having the Series II motor sitting next to the car to completely tuned and DD status in a little under two weeks (one of those weeks spent waiting for Bill at HPTuners to answer one simple question).

Of all the books on tuning out there, the Banish book is the most useful, though it is relatively dense. The Hartman books are good as well, but a bit vague.

[This message has been edited by MazdaManiac (edited 07-22-2013).]

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Report this Post07-22-2013 09:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierosoundClick Here to visit fierosound's HomePageClick Here to Email fierosoundSend a Private Message to fierosoundEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Banish has a couple of books out on FI and tuning
http://www.cartechbooks.com...esult/?q=greg+banish

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Report this Post07-22-2013 05:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Ok, I will be more specific. I am working on a 3400 5 speed. It's running on a grand am ecu (2002).
Things I'm interested in learning to do:
Tune Afr in wot ( I have a wide band)
Tune for larger injectors
Convert to a speed density setup ( adding itb's)
Adjust accel. Enrichment


Issues.

The problem isnt so much "tuning" when it comes to HPTuners... The "greg banish" book has steered many v6 people into the VERY VERY wrong direction as many HPT tables are assumed to work like the V8 guys do, but that is indeed wrong. There are also differences between the pre and post 07 operating systems, as well as strange differences around the 98/99 years of ls1/truck motor tuning... So to say that just buying a book to figure out how everything 'should' work is never going to tell you what steps you need to do to complete your project.

First off, when you are doing HPT tuning stuff, you have to remember that all you have access to is the tables that GM put out there, that the HPT guys can find... it doesnt mean they do anything, and it doesnt mean that HPT knows how they work even (many cases they just dont work at all).

Your situation of converting a old 3400 operating system to run in speed density is not one that has ever been done to my knowledge before, and in reality it may not be possible as many v6 ecus never had the option enabled to use volumetric efficiency in the ecu when the MAF sensor is not available. Second problem is hoping that HPT has the correct settings for VE fail mode if its enabled. Third problem is I think there are about 10 people in the world that actually know how the failure modes work... The failure modes in GM ECU's are a COMPLETELY different game than the "greg banish" tuning method even in the best case scenario. Many things change over, for example in every case of the v6 ecus i have seen, the car will always run in open loop mode but still report a LTFT value (this value is a result of a few things, so some people think it looks right).

My suggestion is to NOT use a HPT... I have one and I hate it, I hardly use it as I have a DHP tuner with MANY more options for custom modifications such as what you are trying to do. The biggest is the ability to swap around different operating systems to find one that would work better in your situation compared to another one... With HPT you are stuck with the file you start with, and if an option is available in another operating system you cant swap it.

Next, I would start into doing careful research via experimentation on the ecu to determine what failure mode the ecu will go into during MAF failure. Most all v6 motors will go into Alpha-N failure mode (google it), which is "in general" not tune-able outside of adjusting injector size. After you determine what mode it has gone into, you can then ATTEMPT to tune from there... One word of advice, the failure mode that the ECU selects to go into IS a value that you can change inside of the ecu for some operating systems in the 3800 world.. In the 3800 ecus we have found many ecus setup for alpha n, but at a mostly random rate some are using VE as a failure mode.

On top of all this, you will then need to understand a few of the operating modes of a GMECU, understanding o2 sensor feedback, batch/sequential fire injection modes, understand some things about ignition AND injection timing related to the engine speed inputs, and how injector flow works, and how the ECU commands the injectors.
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Bridgetown
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Report this Post07-23-2013 10:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well, if speed density conversion is not possible with my ecu, I do have the option of converting to obd1. My engine used to run off of a 7730 ecu. I can go back anytime. As well, I already have all the tuning hardware and software for obd1.
Would this be the more logical thing to do?
And thank you to those who have offered their advice/opinions
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DimeMachine
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Report this Post07-23-2013 10:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DimeMachineSend a Private Message to DimeMachineEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The banish book (or any one source for that matter) will not turn anyone into a tuner by itself. A good understanding of how engines work (both carburated and fuel injected), books, countless hours of research on the internet (thank god for the internet), asking for help and most importantly slow small methodical single changes to the PCM program and measuring the results is where most start. If you don't know (or care to learn) the items I mentioned, then one should hire someone to do it. It really is a lot of fun to learn though. I have used my fiero as a test mule and have not screwed it up. Now I am applying what I have learned to upgrading my LS1 car which HP Tuners seems to be the tuner of choice for. I even diagnosed our grand prix a few times with the HP tuners scanner functions. HP tuners really pays for itself if your other cars are GM cars like mine - Tahoe, grand prix, fiero, corvette. I got rid of the expedition (smart move).

------------------
84 NB, 3800SC, E-85, VS Cam, 3.0 Pulley, 4T65E-HD, HP Tuners, AEM Wideband, Regal GS Gauges, S-10 Brake Booster. 1/4 mile -12.05 at 111.7mph

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