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Radiator braces broken bolt bright ideas? by 85 SE VIN 9
Started on: 07-02-2013 06:16 PM
Replies: 15 (273 views)
Last post by: 85 SE VIN 9 on 07-05-2013 11:31 PM
85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post07-02-2013 06:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ordered Rodney's replacement radiator braces probably two years ago, finally got around to trying to install. First I sprayed with PB Freezeoff. Then used the battery impact wrench to loosen. This makes a lot of noise and the shaking almost completely disintegrated one of the badly rusted braces, but didn't move the bolts. Today I bought a new half inch to 3/8" adaptor so I could use a big new breaker bar bought for this purpose. It worked fine on the other three bolts, but this one - not so much:



The two bolts on the crossmember use speednuts, but the other two attach to a nut inside the main frame rail. I don't see a way to get in there. The one that survived is in place and apparently usable, but I don't know how I can replace the other nut if I have to drill out the bolt, for instance. I do have a bolt out kit, but these are pretty tough bolts. I'm not sure if that would do anything but tear up what's left of the bolt. Since there is quite a bit of the bolt left, do you think I could maybe enlarge the brace hole and use a nut with a collar to take advantage of as much of the remainder as possible?
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crashyoung
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Report this Post07-02-2013 07:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for crashyoungClick Here to Email crashyoungSend a Private Message to crashyoungEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Blue wrench?
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thx569
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Report this Post07-02-2013 08:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thx569Click Here to Email thx569Send a Private Message to thx569Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The yellow wrench and a visegrip with lots of WD40 / PB Blaster would be my first choice. Heat the bolt first then cool with the penetrant, then heat around the bolt.

I might try to cut it off flush, carefully pin punch the center, and use a small (1/8") bit to drill the center out. Then move to a correct size bit, then tap it for the new bolt - You didn't say what size the bolt is for that correct size bit.

If you manage to drill off center, then go to smaller second bit to finish the hole and hammer/chisel out the remains.

Or drill it way out and weld in a "weld nut".

P

[This message has been edited by thx569 (edited 07-02-2013).]

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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post07-02-2013 08:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm sorry to say I don't really understand many of the terms used in the last two posts, but I'm preparing to try a much simpler approach. What's a yellow or blue wrench (never mind I get it, torches with different gas, the yellow tanks being the hot stuff)? I still don't know what a weld nut is, unless you mean just welding it in place. I thought about that, but that's a hundred dollar solution at least because that's what Harbor Freight sells a welder for and there's no power where the car is stuck until I get the brake line back in. I was going to get a torch to get the brake bleeders loose, but the hardware store talked me out of it. They hinted that I would probably end up welding them in instead of getting them out. Has the ring of truth, that, and not buying sounds cheaper.

Anyway, here's what I plan to do. I just got an extra speed nut like the ones that were on the cross member.

I'm not sure which direction I will (maybe have to) put the nut on, upside down or right side up. I plan to turn the nut as many times as possible and hope that's tight enough.

I got new stainless bolts and new speednuts as well.
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trotterlg
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Report this Post07-02-2013 09:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trotterlgClick Here to Email trotterlgSend a Private Message to trotterlgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think I would thread on one of the long nuts used to couple threaded rod together and then drill out the bracket to clear the diameter of the long nut. Then just some washers and a bolt in the top of it. Larry
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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post07-02-2013 10:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That's more like what I had planned. The speednut thing will go either way on the bolts I bought, so I assume it can be put on the stub remaining, but upside down. It's thin enough it will probably fit without drilling. Maybe I'll need a washer, but I think the collar of the speednut and the thickness of the new brace are about the same.
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trotterlg
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Report this Post07-02-2013 10:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trotterlgClick Here to Email trotterlgSend a Private Message to trotterlgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Then life is good. I have a little lathe, so I would really turn about 3/8 inch of it round and put a washer under it, but you have a good plan. Larry
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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post07-02-2013 10:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
hopefully
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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post07-03-2013 09:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Spent most of the day painting, wire brush, cleaning, rusty metal primer, clean metal primer, gloss black. Lots of waiting for paint to dry, and a couple trips to the hardware store. I found another type of nut, but for now I just put an extra speednut on upside down. The nut I have is called an M8 x1.25 9mm x 11mm (well now that I think about it I don't remember what they called it). It's like the fixed end of a curtain rod, but threaded. That's the problem too, it has brad holes, but otherwise it will be hard to grab and tighten, never mind to get off if that day ever comes. The Ace number is 44762-J.

Here's one of the good nuts. I used a new speed nut, stainless M8 x 1.25 bolt (13mm head) and stainless fender washer 44997-E. You see a lot of different colors because of those two primers under the black. Everything got at least one coat...

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Ry86GT
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Report this Post07-04-2013 10:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Ry86GTSend a Private Message to Ry86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by thx569:

I might try to cut it off flush, carefully pin punch the center, and use a small (1/8") bit to drill the center out. Then move to a correct size bit, then tap it for the new bolt - You didn't say what size the bolt is for that correct size bit.


OP I had this exact issue happen with one of my Sway bar mount bolts except when my bolt snapped it was almost flush with the frame. Easy out was an easy fail - I stopped trying before it snapped inside the bolt and I really got screwed.

I centre punched it, drilled out the centre then went to the next bit that was the size of the shaft on the bolt. After that I re-tapped the nut in the frame which was basically just cleaning out the threads of the nut. This was my first time with a fight like this on any car and it was only the above advice that I received from a milwright buddy of mine that got me through.

In your case I would try a torch to heat then rapid cool and a good soaking in penetrant and see if a pair of vice grips will get it out. If not a short visit to your local mechanic (if you don't have access to a welder) and he should be able to weld a nut on the end of that in 5 minutes that would make it easier to get out with some heat. He shouldn't charge much for this if he's a nice guy.

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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post07-04-2013 01:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Although it's on pretty good now without tools I was thinking about trying an easy-out. It seems like the bolt was turning before it broke. There's still some of it attached to the head plus what is sticking out - it couldn't have been all the way in. I've done the drill and tap routine on a Volvo caliper bolt, but it was never the same. It will be mighty difficult to get the drilling and tapping straight given the location under the car. It would be difficult to determine perpendicular to the frame by eye.

The car is not mobile yet. The main problem is a burst brake line, the one that runs from the master cylinder to the rear connection block. That's the reason for removing the tub. Replacing the braces at the same time just seemed reasonable.

I'm considering attaching the remainder of the head to the collar thing and/or using the hex faces as a guide to make it possible to tighten the collar thing. I might start on that in a few minutes because the parking lot is full, today being the 4th of July. When cars are parked right next to it I can work, but I almost always bump into other cars which makes everyone uncomfortable.

There is quite a bit of the bolt left. I could probably grind two or more sides and turn it with vice grips or a socket, but if that doesn't work the other options are compromised. The easy-out seems less likely to ruin what's left of the bolt if it doesn't come out.
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Fierology
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Report this Post07-04-2013 01:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FierologySend a Private Message to FierologyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
propane torch does wonders with frozen bolts/studs/nuts

-Michael
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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post07-04-2013 01:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
And it's a great excuse to buy tools! They talked me out of that when I was going to use it on bleeder screws, so I still don't have one.

Here's the collar thing with the remainder of the head attached. The head actually has enough thread left to hold it in the collar. At the very least this should be enough to tighten it down. Given how little was left of the whole brace this will probably be enough for the time being.



What if I put thread lock everywhere in this contraption, on the bolt head threads, under the bolt head, in the collar, and on the tip of the remaining bolt? Might even be strong enough to back the remainder out. If not nothing is lost unless it breaks more of the bolt off, which seems extremely unlikely.

[This message has been edited by 85 SE VIN 9 (edited 07-04-2013).]

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Ry86GT
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Report this Post07-05-2013 01:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Ry86GTSend a Private Message to Ry86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I don't think the bolt was backing out at all when you were trying to get it out. I believe that when you thought you felt the bolt turning right before it snapped it was the bolt itself actually twisting right before it sheared off. That's what the concentric circles / swirl marks on what's left on the bolt in your first picture are from.

I don't think any amount of locktite on that contraption will get the remainder of that bolt out. It's going to need heat, penetrant and a welder or drill & tap at the minimum.

Use that as a temp fix if you wish, but I would be getting that bolt out and repairing it properly sooner rather than later when the car is on the road. What you don't want is that contraption coming off of the front mount and the brace working its way loose and twisting down/rotating on the bottom mount with the spring nut and catching on something while driving. Ya maybe that scenario is a little far-fetched, but you never know. Murphy's law right????
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Purple86GT
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Report this Post07-05-2013 02:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Purple86GTClick Here to Email Purple86GTSend a Private Message to Purple86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Get an angle grinder, flatten 2 sides of the bolt. Heat it up, cool it down, do it a few times and spray some penetrating fluid in it. Then attach some good vice grips on the flat parts of the bolt and as your apply heat to the area around the bolt, hit the vice grips with a hammer to loosen the bolt (so that the vice grips rotate counter clockwise from each blow of the hammer)

It should then come out with patience.

You need lots of heat to suck the penetrating fluid through capillary action.
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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post07-05-2013 11:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Speaking of Murphy... I'm almost out of vacation time and this isn't even my DD, this thing is just a backup at this point. It's time to move on to the main problem, the leaking brake line. The old one is loose except for the connection to the rear block. The car has sat so long the battery died of old age, so I got a new one online and picked it up at Sears. The battery tray looked fine, but just to be safe I wanted to grind any rust spots and paint before installing the new battery. That led to pulling out loose insulation and removing the ground connection.



You can't see in this picture but a PO installed a patch on the left. You can see the rail itself looks solid. I already did all three coats of rusty metal, bare metal, and top coat Rustoleum. I have metal and rivets, but this is going to take more time. It's also going to be hard to patch tight enough to still get the larger battery in. I plan to use some metal tape first and last and maybe add a metal "roof" over at least the ground connection.

I found the extractor set. I'm still leaning toward less is more for the time being. Once the car is running the option of getting the broken bolt or the brace welded or something is more realistic. Granted bad things could happen if it comes loose, but after all, the brace that used to be there wasn't really doing anything. It now exists as two thirds of a brace plus a pile of rust. Even the hand tightened upside-down speed nut on a new brace is much stronger than that.

[This message has been edited by 85 SE VIN 9 (edited 07-05-2013).]

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