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New sources for F23 hydraulic adapter / flex hose (poss. F40 as well) by FieroGT42
Started on: 05-30-2013 07:37 PM
Replies: 25 (1548 views)
Last post by: FieroGT42 on 10-15-2014 06:34 PM
FieroGT42
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Report this Post05-30-2013 07:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroGT42Click Here to Email FieroGT42Send a Private Message to FieroGT42Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've been keeping an eye out for an easy and inexpensive way to adapt an F23/F40 quick disconnect to the stock cluck system while I'm doing an auto-to-manual swap, and I found a solution I'd like to share.

Since I'm converting to a manual, I need to run a new clutch line including a flex line, so this is perfect for me. I am not endorsing any manufacturers or retailers below. This is just the information I compiled.


F23/F40 HTOB clutch line adapter/flex line

I've been looking for a suitable adapter or a way to make one since I discovered that the F23/F40 clutch line coming from the bleeder junction is plastic and is obviously not suitable for flaring to meet a stock Fiero or custom line.

If you have the bleeder Y-pipe junction block thingamajig with the quick-disconnect intact, you can remove the plastic line and attach the steel end to an adapter or brake nut of your choice. On the F23, the supply side tube inside the plastic line is just a few hundredths under 1/4" OD so it will fit nicely inside 1/4" adapter. I welded one to seal it, then filled the cavity with JB Weld, but I was curious to find out if someone already made a solution for those who can't or don't want to bother with this.

Knowing that the F23 was used in the F-body (Cavalier/Sunfire) as well as the Delta platform (Cobalt, G3, etc.) and many others, I looked at what they were using. Eventually I found someone making adapters for $60-80, and another who made a part starting with a BMW clutch line. The aftermarket BMW lines for $40+ looked a little Autozone/Pep Boys ricer quality to me, so dug a little more and found the part that it originally replaced. Apparently there's a Getrag in a BMW E46 that uses the same connector on the HTOB side and the other end is threaded. With just an adapter or clutch line threaded into that, you can have a German OEM quality flex hose and HTOB/clutch line adapter manufactured in one piece without having to hack, weld, braze or crimp. Since I'm swapping from auto to manual, this was ideal for me. I'd have needed to buy a flex hose anyway. If you're swapping an F23/F24 into an auto, or if you're swapping into a manual and have an old flex hose, this would probably work for you.

The part is about 16"-ish long. The flex section is 31 cm/12" and the usable length from the F23/F40 plastic bleeder junction is 37.5 cm / 14 3/4". The quick disconnect plugs into the F23 and uses the same clip as the stock hose, and the other end terminates in a female metric M 10 x 1.0 bubble flare. The stock Fiero lines used M12x1.0 bubble flare, so a one-piece adapter should let you use this for a flex line while minimizing the number of connections that can leak. Since I'm running a new clutch line, and I think 3/16 will be easier to bleed than 1/4", I'll have a single 12mm-10mm adapter on my clutch master instead. so you can either use a M12 to M10 adapter OR do as I did and use 3/16" tubing with a M12 nut on the master cylinder and a M10 on the slave end. This eliminates any adapters, no extra connections to leak, just two ISO flares like the OEM line, and this flex hose (or a stainless braided one from various sellers) will be perfect.

Part # for M12-1.0 ISO flare on 3/16" tubing: AGS brand, # BLF-48B.

The prices I found below are for the cost in USD including shipping to central USA. There are flashy stainless braided variants of untested quality and durability out there ranging from $40 to $80 shipped, but the OEM part is even more affordable and may actually be more reliable. And one of the biggest benefits, to me, is that there is no welding, brazing or other "Mickey Mousing" to use it.

I bought the OEM part. Here's what you can expect to receive:







These are the OEM part numbers and applications. You can probably get the part from any BMW dealer for these cars or use them to check interchanges:

 
quote
Some guy at BMW or the Auto Union wrote:

OEM "Clutch Control", part # 21526774267, 21521165507, 21526751481, 21526755478, 21526755479

323Ci Convertible. Up To 03/2000 . Required: 1
323i Wagon. Up To 03/2000 . Required: 1
330Ci Convertible. Up To 03/2000 . Required: 1
323Ci Coupe. Up To 03/2000 . Required: 1
323i Sedan. Up To 03/2000 . Required: 1
328Ci Coupe. Up To 03/2000 . Required: 1
328i Sedan. Up To 03/2000 . Required: 1
325i Sedan. Required: 1
325i Sedan. Required: 1
325xi Sedan. Required: 1
M3 Coupe. Required: 1
323Ci Coupe. Required: 1
323i Sedan. Required: 1
320i Sedan. Required: 1
328Ci Coupe. Required: 1
328i Sedan. Required: 1
330Ci Convertible. Required: 1
330i Sedan. Required: 1
325Ci Convertible. Required: 1
325i Wagon. Required: 1
325i Wagon. Required: 1
323Ci Convertible. Required: 1
323i Wagon. Required: 1
325Ci Coupe. Required: 1
M3 Convertible. Required: 1
330Ci Coupe. Required: 1
330xi Sedan. Required: 1
325Ci Coupe. Required: 1
325xi Wagon. Required: 1

These are the parts and sources I found:

code:
OEM:

$ Part # Manufacturer retailer
28 W0133-1815281-FTE FTE Amazon.com
* 21 52 6 774 267 (same as above)
* 323E.352E.03 (same)
35 21526774267 Genuine BMW part ECSTuning.com
35 21526774267 (41523 ) Genuine BMW part secarpart.com
37 21526774267 Genuine BMW part (various dealership websites)

NOTE: FTE/EPS has been making OEM European parts for over 60 years. It may be an exact OEM part.
In any case, I'd expect it to be of the same quality.

I've confirmed that the FTE is in fact the OEM part, so any of the above numbers should be genuine.


Aftermarket braided SS:

$ Part # Manufacturer retailer
36 18/33, 207 ? Euro-wise.com
40+ AP-E46M3-400 Agency Power many various websites
42.36 SSCLC160 ? from turner motorsport
45 SS-CLU-02 Rogue Engineering Rogue Engineering

The Agency Power/Turner parts are generally thought by many Bimmer enthusiasts to come from the
same manufacturer. Rogue Engineering may have a different supplier or make their own stuff. I didn't
do that much research since I didn't use their parts.



Jason

[This message has been edited by FieroGT42 (edited 10-15-2014).]

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KurtAKX
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Report this Post05-30-2013 09:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KurtAKXSend a Private Message to KurtAKXEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Very nice!

If I ever get another Fiero, I'm gonna look this thread up
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Report this Post05-30-2013 09:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I can confirm that the F23 and F40 share the same disconnect fitting at the HTOB... have one of each on the shelf.
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Report this Post05-30-2013 10:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DanyelClick Here to visit Danyel's HomePageSend a Private Message to DanyelEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
WOW thanks for the info ..... now gotta find the kind of axles I need and flywheel spacer .....

------------------

My Build Thread
Tylers Toy

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FieroNate
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Report this Post05-31-2013 01:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroNateClick Here to visit FieroNate's HomePageClick Here to Email FieroNateSend a Private Message to FieroNateEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This might work too:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/rus-640281

I'm ordering one to see if it fits. I suspect this is the same fitting used in a T56 6 speed from Camaro/Vette was well. I'll see if i can confirm.
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Report this Post05-31-2013 02:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cyrus88Send a Private Message to cyrus88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroNate:

This might work too:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/rus-640281

I'm ordering one to see if it fits. I suspect this is the same fitting used in a T56 6 speed from Camaro/Vette was well. I'll see if i can confirm.


I don't think that will work.
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Report this Post05-31-2013 03:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bcampbellClick Here to Email bcampbellSend a Private Message to bcampbellEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
No that Russell fitting won't work. Those are secured by roll pins in a very different fitting.
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Report this Post05-31-2013 09:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroGT42:

Since I'm running a new clutch line, and I think 3/16 will be easier to bleed than 1/4", I'll have a single 12mm-10mm adapter on my clutch master instead.

Jason



Are you bending your own line from the master back? Stupid question...

I don't have my clutch line in front of me, but is this long enough to replace the stock flex section. The one I have is the Fiero Store SS replacement. I am also in the middle of this swap from auto to F23...

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 05-31-2013).]

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FieroGT42
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Report this Post05-31-2013 11:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroGT42Click Here to Email FieroGT42Send a Private Message to FieroGT42Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm hoping it will be long enough for stock applications, but in my case I can just make my hard line a little longer if I need to. I don't know how long TFS's SS line is but I think this BMW part was 37.5 cm / 14.76 inches from the F23's plastic junction to the end of the metric fitting.
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Report this Post05-31-2013 11:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroGT42Click Here to Email FieroGT42Send a Private Message to FieroGT42Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

FieroGT42

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Member since Jan 2005
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroNate:
This might work too:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/rus-640281

I'm ordering one to see if it fits. I suspect this is the same fitting used in a T56 6 speed from Camaro/Vette was well. I'll see if i can confirm.


Yeah, that's the new "universal" quick disconnect that I was hoping was the same because it's more much available and affordable. Unfortunately not.
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FieroNate
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Report this Post06-01-2013 01:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroNateClick Here to visit FieroNate's HomePageClick Here to Email FieroNateSend a Private Message to FieroNateEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sounds like a part to make...
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Report this Post06-01-2013 02:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Four_hundred_86Click Here to Email Four_hundred_86Send a Private Message to Four_hundred_86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Not to sound picky, but could you not have a hydraulic line maker custom make you a flex hose with the proper fittings? In the Kc area, quad power makes pretty much any kind of hose you want. Granted you do pay for the custom work, but I don't know that the price would be all that much higher factoring in your labor. Plus the professionals should give you some kind of warranty. Just my .02¢

------------------
Honestly, What is a "stock" Fiero?

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Report this Post06-01-2013 04:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaron88Send a Private Message to aaron88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That is my basic thinking too. Hydraulic fitting can be custom made with warranty depending on size and style for about $50 CDN each. I looked into it here in Ottawa, Canada. If it can be custom made for $50, what does OEM make on profit?


.
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Report this Post06-01-2013 05:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think it would be fairly simple to have a fitting designed and machined to fit in the F40/F23 and accept the stock fiero hard line (one short 2" aluminum piece). For my swap, disassembled the G6 hose fitting, and machined it to accept a threaded coupler, pressed them together and soldered. This coupler was a standard version, so i cut the bubble end off the fiero hard line and added a standard flare nut and reflared the end, but if I was going to have one made, I would just design it to accept the stock fiero hard line fitting. When I do my next LS(x) swap, I will probably have about 25+ of these things made up.


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FieroGT42
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Report this Post06-01-2013 05:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroGT42Click Here to Email FieroGT42Send a Private Message to FieroGT42Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you want to have someone make one, go right ahead. I'd rather have a German made OEM part of known quality. I couldn't find a shop that offers a warranty on some oddball custom adapter, and I didn't have a shop nearby to make one for me anyway. Plus this solves my problem of a flex line and costs less than half what I'd pay otherwise. It's an extra option for people to consider, and not worry about someone else's hack job.
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Report this Post06-01-2013 08:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaron88Send a Private Message to aaron88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I love the way people talk about things that they have no working knowledge of. Firoguru's piece is made out of two solid machined pieces soldered together. The internal dia is likely 1/4" or 3/16". If it was soldered with alloy Sb5 (95-5 Tin-Antimony) which it probably was. The safe working pressure is 1090 psig at 100 degrees F dropping to 270 psig at 250 degrees. The safety factor (FS) is likely 3 but would be a minimum of 2.5. That makes the likely failure pressure somewhere around 675 psig, assuming of course that the clutch line even got that hot.

Admittedly soldering these two pieces is not ideal or recommended fieroguru's plan is to replace it with one solid piece which would then have a working pressure rating of about 5000 psig. That's more than the flex portion of the line is rated for by the way. Or the plastic for that matter.

That's not exactly a "hack job" it's actually a better simpler solution. It just can't be sourced locally.

So to sum up FioroGT42's solution is fantastic (than you), but that doesn't make fieroguru's fantastic yet unobtanium solution a hack job.

I love all you guys that contribute, I just wish you didn't hate on each other so bad.

[This message has been edited by aaron88 (edited 06-01-2013).]

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FieroGT42
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Report this Post06-01-2013 10:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroGT42Click Here to Email FieroGT42Send a Private Message to FieroGT42Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just to clear it up, I wasn't implying that Fieroguru or anyone else's work in particular is a hack job. (And I got negged for posting this info even before that, wtf). I meant that there are a lot of shops out there and you're taking a risk with them welding, soldering or crimping a hose if you aren't familiar with a shop's work.

"Better" is mostly subjective too. His looks "better" if your flex line is in good shape. Mine was "better" for me since I wanted to do both in one shot for less than doing them separately and probably "better" for several other people, but not all of them. Both will hold up to far more heat and pressure than they need to.

I think it's funny that 3 people in a row say it's something to make or pay someone twice as much to make. You can pay $50 to have one made (most shops using the same Chinese parts) and if anything happens your insurance company will tell you to kiss off the same as if you have non-DOT stainless brake lines that go out. I'll take the $25 part made by FTE in Germany and certified to higher standards for use on the autobahn, and I dont' even have to leave the comfort of my home... erm... cramped quarters of my garage, I mean. Whatever pickles your cucumber.
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Report this Post06-01-2013 11:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroNateClick Here to visit FieroNate's HomePageClick Here to Email FieroNateSend a Private Message to FieroNateEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I thought clutches ran higher PSI than that.
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Report this Post07-07-2013 08:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mkmanClick Here to Email mkmanSend a Private Message to mkmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Does anybody know the part # for the bleeder junction mentioned in the first post? I need one for my build, and am not having much luck. Also, are you using the stock Fiero master cylinder to push the HTOB?
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FieroGT42
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Report this Post07-07-2013 08:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroGT42Click Here to Email FieroGT42Send a Private Message to FieroGT42Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As far as I've ever found, there's only a part number for this entire assembly: http://www.fiero.nl/cgi-bin...ad=20130314-2-120691

I haven't found the bleeder separately but you can try a salvage yard.

I'm using a (new) stock clutch master, but I plan to put in a pedal stop. I wanted one anyway because they're great for "spirited" driving.
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Report this Post08-05-2013 03:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bcampbellClick Here to Email bcampbellSend a Private Message to bcampbellEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My clutch line 'nut' stripped when I tried to remove the nut from the stock 4-speed slave cylinder so I had to come up with something different. I had a local hose shop silver solder a -4 male fitting onto the F23 bleeder, then I installed a Russell -4 powerflex hose end onto the stock braided section of line after cutting off the stock fitting. The stock clutch line is slightly larger than -4 so to make the Russell hose end work I carefully drilled out the brass olive until I could slip it over the inner lining.

The clutch bled almost right away and no hassles with the slave cylinder like with the stock setup. Very impressed.

[This message has been edited by bcampbell (edited 08-05-2013).]

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Report this Post08-05-2013 06:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

I can confirm that the F23 and F40 share the same disconnect fitting at the HTOB... have one of each on the shelf.


My question (way after the fact) is whether the the T550 (hydraulic TOB Getrag) uses the same fitting.
I may still have my fitting. If so, I can send it to you.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 08-05-2013).]

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Report this Post08-05-2013 07:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

My question (way after the fact) is whether the the T550 (hydraulic TOB Getrag) uses the same fitting.
I may still have my fitting. If so, I can send it to you.



PM me a picture of it if you can.
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FieroNate
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Report this Post10-05-2013 09:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroNateClick Here to visit FieroNate's HomePageClick Here to Email FieroNateSend a Private Message to FieroNateEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I ordered one from an E46 BMW 325i (I'm told 1989 to 1999 use the same hose). However it appears the area where the lock ring locks it into place is to small a diameter. Can anyone confirm they have used a BMW hose for an F40? If so what year and model (E46 etc..)

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Report this Post10-09-2013 05:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CinproSend a Private Message to CinproEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I found some info that J-Body folks are using. They are using the LNF TOB and a clutch pipe from the LSJ. here is more info for those that are interested.
Ecotec clutch pipe elbow
J-Body.org LSJ or LNF TOB w/ F23 trans
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FieroGT42
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Report this Post10-15-2014 06:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroGT42Click Here to Email FieroGT42Send a Private Message to FieroGT42Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I glad to see that my post helped some people and has even been quoted and linked to.

Post updated to include brake fitting part numbers. A m12 to m10 adapter is NOT necessary if you use 3/16 line. It also may not be necessary with 1/4" line if you can find a M10-1.0 fitting for it.

For 3/16" line:
M12-1.0 fitting for 3/16" tubing -- part numbers include BLF-48B available at AutoZone etc.
M10-1.0 fittings for 3/16" tubing easy to find anywhere. BLF-39C or other parts.
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