I'm not running a 7730 at present (but considering it) and came across this upgrade board for the ECM. I think it's work having a look, but I'm not knowledgable enough to determine if a laptop flashable ECM would work in our swaps.
"The EBL P4 Flash does away with the burning and swapping of chips. On-board flash is programmed with the What's Up Display. No more swapping chips, no more ECM on the floor of the vehicle. Put the ECM back into place under the dash (or seat, or kick panel or wherever it is intended to be). Then flash and data log a new calibration right from the same cable via the What's Up Display program."
You can get a flashable 7730 ECM by adding the Romulator to the 7730. You would then mount a connector for the Romulator somewhere so you wouldn't have to disturb the console. It is less expensive however it only would support the flashable functions of the EBL board. The 'Whats Up" display and other non-stock 7730 functions wouldn't be added.
You may want to check MOATES.net in regards to the chip that allows you to reprogram through the ALDL connector. Their emulator pretty much does away with chip swapping until you reach a tune you're satisfied with, there is also a little gadget that allows you to switch between two different tunes on the same chip by simply grounding a wire.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 05-24-2013).]
I can do the same thing with my modified 1227165 and code. The ecu even fits in the stock ecu carrier. I can tune/flash through the ALDL port, extra hardware needed aside the aldl adapter, like what phonedawgz has.
I'm looking more closely at this system and am liking what I've been reading.
My supercharged GT is presently running an '85 Fiero ECM with 2 BAR MAP sensor and knock sensor input from knock sensor module. I also have a Zietronics Wide-Band O2 sensor using it's Narrow-band output to the ECM. (I installed this to "see" what the engine is doing).
The fuel tables were pulled from my original 7170 BIN that was dyno-tuned years ago by Wester's Garage http://westersgarage.eidnet.ca/index2.html The engine is still running pretty good, but I can feel where it could use some more refining.
I see that from reading the Tuning Guide, the EBL P4 7730 besides being Flashable (and better processor etc.) also has "VE Learn" modes that will essentially help you tune the system (works best with a wide-band O2 - which I already have )
SO...
I should be able to modify a BIN with the tables from what I am already running to get me into the "ball park" and have the system "self learn" to refine it further. Sounds pretty good for $500
From the Tuning Guide
VE Learn sessions are the next step. Usually four to six VE Learns and the vehicle driveability is greatly increased. The engine just flat out runs better. This allows the owner/tuner to be able to drive the vehicle on a daily basis. At that time further attention can be paid toward WOT performance and fine tuning the vehicle driveability.
The first drive should be done in a low to no traffic area. A long driveway is good. Otherwise go out at a time when the traffic is light. Take it easy, make sure to start a VE Learn and to data log, then drive around for about 10 minutes (with the engine warmed up).
Dependent upon how close the tune is the engine may or may not have run OK. There is a good possibility that it stuttered, sputtered, surged, or chugged at times. This is why the initial drives should be done in light to no traffic.
Take a look at the WUD VE Learn display (corrections screen). Big corrections? Stop the VE Learn and flash in the new calibration. Then set up another VE Learn, data log, and take the vehicle for another drive.
Drive for another 10 minutes, stop and check the VE Learn corrections display. Same as before, stop the VE Learn and flash in the new calibration. Each time you do this the engine will be running better.
As you continue to do VE Learns go to a higher engine RPM. To do this hold the gear longer before up shifting. Try to get as much coverage over the load and RPM range as possible. You can also increase the length of time driving before stopping the VE Learn and flashing in the new calibration.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 07-22-2013).]
"Looks" like this can also support wide-band O2 "learning" and can be set up to use the stock Fiero EGR - no need to go to the digital EGR as with the 7730 ECM.
At this point, because of my limited understanding of all this it sometimes starts looking like "it's all Greek to me" - so I can't decide which would be better in my case.
As mentioned above, I need to go from an '85 Fiero ECM with already modified fuel tables, with 2 BAR MAP sensor, knock sensor module, and a Zietronics Wide-Band O2 sensor.
So either way, I'd need a BIN for the new ECM ($58A/$59 mask Sunbird turbo, Syclone/Typhoon??) setup as my current 85 BIN to get started and self tune from there.
What to do? Which way to go?
Need ECM with code mask that supports - boosted application - Distributor - Stock EGR (will go digital if needed) - Knock sensor input - Wide band input - some kind of "self learn" from wide band
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 07-23-2013).]
I have a similar dilemma. Although, I already have a 7730 ECM with some goodies in it (Moates daughter board and a flash ROM). But my setup does not have the ability to run a wideband O2 sensor, nor can it "self-tune". And those are both abilities that I want.
So for me, the dilemma is whether to buy another daughter board for the 7730, or swap in a different ECM.
I have a similar dilemma. Although, I already have a 7730 ECM with some goodies in it (Moates daughter board and a flash ROM). But my setup does not have the ability to run a wideband O2 sensor, nor can it "self-tune". And those are both abilities that I want.
So for me, the dilemma is whether to buy another daughter board for the 7730, or swap in a different ECM.
EBL P4 will likely be the last mod you make to your ECM, its pretty nice IMO. Both those capes you wanted are standard.
S_AUJP V4(among others) has wideband patched into the datastream but no VE learn.
I have been discussing this topic with fierosound in PMs but I wanted to give my $0.02 in this thread.
"Autotune" is great when you are working on the tune. Nothing wrong with it AS LONG AS IT WORKS PROPERLY. But that's the catch. I have run into a few situations while using autotune methods where it did not always make the correct changes for whatever reason. And that's where you run into problems.
There is really no reason why you would need to run any type of unrestricted autotune system full-time on a car. Once the ECM tune is dialed in for the engine, lock it in and leave it. You do not want to leave the tune "open" to being changed all the time because it can cause problems which could cost you an engine. Sensors (yes, even WideBand O2's) can and do go bad and if something happens while you have autotune enabled, it can put your engine at serious risk if you are not paying close attention to what is going on.
All factory GM ECMs that have closed loop enabled have always had some measure of autotune enabled from the factory. However, GM put strict limits on how much change could be made to the learned fuel and learned timing advance (later PCMs) tables. They did this so in case something went wrong (sensor went bad, mechanical issue, etc), the ECM could only adjust fuel (or timing) so far before it would be limited and not be able to make any more changes. Generally speaking, these limits do not allow these changes to get to a point where they could harm the engine.
Don't misunderstand what I am saying here. I'm not bashing autotune. It can be a great tool. But it is not something that I would just "turn loose" on my engine and let it run full time without me paying 100% attention to what it is doing at all times. You need to be very careful with autotune methods - especially on those engines that use boost.
-ryan
------------------ OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 07-23-2013).]
Fill me in on what you have and are planning on doing.
As above:
My supercharged 3.4L 5-speed GT is presently running an '85 Fiero ECM with 2 BAR MAP sensor and knock sensor input from knock sensor module. I also have a Zietronics Wide-Band O2 sensor using its Narrow-band output to the ECM. (I installed this to occasionally monitor what the engine is doing). The injectors are 21# from the DOHC engine running on stock fuel pressure.
The fuel tables were pulled from my original 7170 BIN that was dyno-tuned years ago by Wester's Garage. Spark tables were left alone. It's always been pretty good, but it seems changing the exhaust to 2-1/2" last month has altered things a bit and the fueling could use refinement. The engine is doing OK, but a little wet and sooty at idle, goes lean on throttle tip-in, and could probably be better at upper end WOT too.
I need an ECM with code mask that supports - boosted application w/ 2 bar MAP - distributor ignition - Knock sensor input (using an ESC module at present) - Wide band input - some kind of "self learn" from wide band - would like to keep stock EGR (will go digital if needed) Can scrap if necessary.
Your writeup on the 7165 is good, it's an easier install and controls stock EGR, but I'm not sure about flashing and tuning capabilities with it.
So at this point, I'm thinking of going with the EBL-P4 7730 because it's self-learning from WB-O2 and flash tuneable. The installation of this would be pretty much the same as covered by DarthFiero in his thread here: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000088.html
As far as I can tell, nobody has the EBL-P4 7730 in use in their Fiero running any engine. But I think it's worthwhile to look at it. Because the EBL-P4 7730 with wide-band O2 could be the ideal ECM for Fieros with custom built engines and "odd" swaps.
My problem is WHAT BIN to start with for my application in the 7730? I'd need something close "out of the box", or have it modified to be "close enough" to get running - then have the EBL-P4 self-learn/tune from there.
I think the 7730 $59 code mask (modified $58) meets the above requirements because it's been modified to support WB-O2. But it was modified for a 3 Bar MAP, can it be changed to 2 Bar? Not sure how it handles EGR, and is it for DIS or distributor?
I think there's also lots of patches for the $58/$58A code mask - used with the 4.3 Turbo GMC V6 that had a distributor. So it may be better to start with it, and add a WB-O2 patch.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 07-24-2013).]
My problem is WHAT BIN to start with for my application in the 7730? I'd need something close "out of the box", or have it modified to be "close enough" to get running - then have the EBL-P4 self-learn/tune from there.
Presently chatting by email with Bob at EBL.
The EBL systems use their own code which is why they are so feature rich. There are base BIN(s) supplied along with an XDF file. Unrestrained by not using GM code they have been able to put large high resolution VE, spark advance and other tables together. Plus tons of features not found in other ECMs.
I still haven't figured out if they have an appropriate BIN included or whether I need a stock GM BIN for me to "get started" if I install their system.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that. Even the instructions for the kit say to use the auto-tune feature only for dialing in a tune.
Well nobody said they were NOT suggesting it either. That's why I said what I said in the post I made.
quote
Originally posted by fierosound:
Presently chatting by email with Bob at EBL.
The EBL systems use their own code which is why they are so feature rich. There are base BIN(s) supplied along with an XDF file. Unrestrained by not using GM code they have been able to put large high resolution VE, spark advance and other tables together. Plus tons of features not found in other ECMs.
If the EBL systems use their own code (mask) and they come with their own BIN and XDF files, then I would say you MUST start out using THEIR custom .BIN as nothing stock GM is going to work.
Just make sure the EBL setup can use a 2 or 3 BAR MAP sensor and is capable of dealing with boost and you should be good. But as I told you in the PMs we exchanged, switching to a different code mask (especially an aftermarket/custom one) is probably going to require you to start completely over on your tune and I doubt you will be able to directly transfer much of anything from your current 85 ECM based tune to the EBL one.
If the EBL systems use their own code (mask) and they come with their own BIN and XDF files, then I would say you MUST start out using THEIR custom .BIN as nothing stock GM is going to work.
Actually, the EBL can work with stock GM masks (compatible with 7730 ECM of course) according to Bob.
At first he suggested I go with a "stock" $8D - not sure why, as it's not a "turbo" BIN for a running 2 Bar MAP or geared for wide-band O2. I don't even know if it's for distributor equipped engines with vacuum controlled EGR.
He also suggested his EBL SFI-6 Flash ECM for my car. I pointed out this won't work because it's intended for engines with a cam sensor and SFI (what we don't have).
The other BIN suggested is the GM $59 code (modified $58) for the Syclone/Typhon - modified for WB-O2 and 3 Bar MAP. Not sure if that can easily be flipped to a 2 Bar MAP. $58 doesn't have a WB-O2 monitoring.
The EBL BINs they supply have been "improved" to work with their P4 ECM - read WB-O2, have VE Learn (self-tune) etc. The EBL systems work with vacuum EGR valve & solenoid. They will run a digital EGR valve, but only a single pintle will be used. EBL systems can use a distributor or DIS system.
For my application, he suggested starting with the EBL 3.1MFPI BIN, change the injector flow constant, change the engine displacement, and flash it in. He didn't mention how I'd go about changing it to 2 Bar MAP (the 85 Fiero ECM had a "toggle"). I'd have to look at it with TunerPro to what's available in there. But with those changes, it should start, and with WB-O2 monitoring the fuel tables could get built.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 07-24-2013).]
Originally posted by fierosound: I need an ECM with code mask that supports - boosted application w/ 2 bar MAP - distributor ignition - Knock sensor input (using an ESC module at present) - Wide band input - some kind of "self learn" from wide band - would like to keep stock EGR (will go digital if needed) Can scrap if necessary.
Your writeup on the 7165 is good, it's an easier install and controls stock EGR, but I'm not sure about flashing and tuning capabilities with it.
For the 7165 swap and NVRAM module installed, it can:
Control a 1, 2, or 3 bar system. Control a distributor or DIS system. Use your existing knock sensor with controller or an internal knock filter like the 7730/7749. Full use of wide-band sensor inputs, not just display lambda/A/F ratio. Full self learn using wide-band as well as narrow-band O2 sensor, even both if so desired. Can control EGR but is not native to the code, will need to use one of the four user configurable outputs. Tuning is done real-time using nothing but the aldl port and tunerpro RT. Same goes for flashing a new tune to the controller, no need to remove the ECU for an update to the code.
The ecu can be found fairly easy and the NVram can be purchased for about $150.
If you do go with the EBL, I would be interested to see how it work for you and will help where I can.
It's a physically easier install than the 7730, doesn't create problems with the Fiero VSS/speedo and with NVRAM, the modified $12P code and Wide-band O2 looks to do everything the EBL-P4 setup does (for less money).
I am planning on trying Chet's setup on my Northstar. I've been running a 7730 with an Ostrich II emulator. I have a 1227165 pcm , but need that board now...
How did you make out getting the NVRAM board from VL400? Or where did you get it?
I have both of Bob R's DynamicEFI products; The EBL Flash is installed installed in my pickup and the EBL P4 Flash is installed (with an 87-88 ECM tray) in my Fiero.
Update: 1 pcm # 1227165 @ $40.00 from a salvage yard, list vehicles that use the '165 is here 1 NVRAM board c/w VS1245 chip from VL400 on pcmhacking.net (Australia) for AU$170.00 delivered Pinout for the '165 pcm downloaded from pcmhacking.net Bin and DXF files downloaded from pcmhacking.net
Spark and other initial settings from the 7730 code will need to be set in the new OSE12P code. Other details yet unknown but sure to arise....
More details to follow.
[This message has been edited by Daviero (edited 10-22-2013).]
What does the $58 codemask reference for sensors? Does it use the same sensors to calculate fueling as our engines (MAP instead of MAF)? I am trying to determine what to start with for a supercharged 2.8
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