Well, I finished the swap with the help of some of you fine folks and it finally runs. Now I can't get it into gear.
First the details:
98 Camaro flywheel machined down to 0.840 and balance matched to the L67 flexplate Clutchnet Racing Flexplate Clutchnet Organic Clutch Fiero Store Clutch Pedal Rodney Dickman Master Cylinder with Adjustable Banjo Homebuilt Slave with MR2 Piston
After starting the car up, I couldn't get it to shift into gear while running. It gave classic symptoms of bad disengagement, but I adjusted the shift cables per Bloozeberry's directions first. Locked the shifter into 3rd gear and adjusted the cables as necessary.
I was attempting to use the stock master and slave cylinder which I left intact while doing the swap. Measuring the disengagement gave me about 7/8". I bled the slave several times and kept getting in the neighborhood of 3/4" to 7/8" disengagement at the slave.
I followed another thread on here which informed me to disconnect the slave from the tranny and measure pedal distance before slave lockup. I could move the pedal about 1.5" inches before it would lockup, so there was clearly a problem.
I ordered a Fiero Store pedal and master cylinder from Rodney Dickman. I removed the old pedal to install, and it wasn't in horrible condition. Unbent, but the bushing had seen better days. Regardless, it was an aluminum pedal so it needed replaced at some point.
I bench bled Rodney's cylinder and installed it last night.
The slave cylinder I cobbled together used the rod from the original slave, the piston from the MR2 slave cylinder, and a cylinder that I received from Rock Auto. I know everyone dislikes aftermarket slaves, but the inside of the slave looked and measured good.
With the new pedal, slave, and master I'm still only getting 7/8" disengagement. We bled the system following Archie's procedure, including removing the slave bleeder and forcing out the air bubble. I also gravity bled the system.
I removed the slave from the tranny and left it connected to the hydraulic system, and I'm no longer getting excessive movement at the pedal. It's noteworthy that I do need to pump the pedal once to lock up the slave, but I attribute this to the spring in the slave cylinder not being long enough to fully engage the MR2 piston.
Other note: About the third time I hit the clutch pedal after installing the 3800, I heard a metallic clang. I'm concerned that this is the retaining spring from the throwout bearing, but it may also have been a tool falling. I had a lot of tools on top of the car at the time.
Where do I go from here? I'm running low on funding to devote to this project, so I really don't want to throw cash at parts with no results. I appreciate any suggestions.
Yes, the clutch pedal is about 1" higher than the brake pedal. Both the new and original pedal are in the same position.
It's worth noting that the transmission is a junkyard Isuzu, not the tranny I had originally. However it shifts into gear fine when the engine isn't running.
After my last posting, I had an idea and pulled my exhaust crossover. That gave me enough disengagement to shift, a hair less than an inch.
I took the car to the alignment shop on Monday and it drove like a dream. A little hard getting it into 1st and Reverse, but otherwise great.
Long story short, I went to take it to a different alignment shop on Tuesday morning. I made it to the end of the block after fighting to get it in reverse. From there I really couldn't shift at all. I turned around and went home.
Measured my disengagement at 7/8". Bled it again, and it remained 7/8". I decided to pull the tranny and take a look at the throwout bearing.
As I suspected, the clip had flung off. I got it reinstalled on the fork through the mounting holes this time. I reinstalled the tranny and my disengagement is still 7/8"! I bled it once more, and gained nothing.
Any ideas? I need a little help, guys. The only thing left is the lines, but they don't look to be leaking at all.
Do you mean the slave cylinder reaches full extension? If the slave reaches full extension without the pushrod moving over 1" then there is no way the slave can disengage the clutch. Either the slave pushrod is too short, or the slave pushrod arm is on the throw out shaft wrong.
To get at least 1 1/4" movement of the slave pushrod, the slave pushrod needs to push the slave piston back from it's fully extended position at least 1 1/4"
The slave piston should never reach full extension unless the slave pushrod is removed.
[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 04-24-2013).]
Do you mean the slave cylinder reaches full extension? If the slave reaches full extension without the pushrod moving over 1" then there is no way the slave can disengage the clutch. Either the slave pushrod is too short, or the slave pushrod arm is on the throw out shaft wrong.
To get at least 1 1/4" movement of the slave pushrod, the slave pushrod needs to push the slave piston back from it's fully extended position at least 1 1/4"
I search like a madman when I'm trying to fix something. I found a post that advised disconnecting the slave from the tranny and letting it hang. According to this post, when the slave is disconnected from the arm you should only get about 1/16" of pedal movement before the pedal gets rock hard. That's what I meant by lock up the slave.
I get a decent amount of pedal movement with the slave freshly disconnected, but pretty much none once I've pumped it once. I'm thinking that after I pump it once it extends the piston to the snap ring. Any movement in the pedal after that would be either slop in the banjo or air.
EDIT: Just measured my push rod. 5 1/2". It's supposed to be 5 7/8" for an Isuzu, right? That would get me the 3/8 of an inch I need.
[This message has been edited by GM Shane (edited 04-24-2013).]
The slave cylinder I cobbled together used the rod from the original slave, the piston from the MR2 slave cylinder, and a cylinder that I received from Rock Auto. I know everyone dislikes aftermarket slaves, but the inside of the slave looked and measured good.
Are you positive the slave bore is the correct diameter on the slave you are using? Even slightly larger and it's volume will be a lot more so the travel will be less. Your push rod linkage on the master is straight? Larry
Are you positive the slave bore is the correct diameter on the slave you are using? Even slightly larger and it's volume will be a lot more so the travel will be less. Your push rod linkage on the master is straight? Larry
The slave ID was 0.810 on the OEM slave, aftermarket, and MR2 slave. The master was straight when I installed it from Rodney Dickman last week. I'm pretty sure it hasn't bent, but I'll check.
I'm starting to wonder if I put the clutch disk on backwards. I don't want to yank that thing out again!
In your first post you say it drove well to the first alignment shop. If it drove OK on that trip then the clutch disc is in correctly. When it is in backwards the springs and plate collide with the rear of the flywheel and it will never release no matter what you do. Larry
If there's still some question as to whether the slave pushrod is extending far enough towards the clutch fork, another way of dealing with this is to move the slave to the other side of the mounting bracket. This places the whole shebang closer to the clutch fork. More importantly, it moves the internal piston back another half inch or so away from the end of it's outward travel.
Using a googled image below, I've indicated where the slave could be moved to. Although a bolt is being used here, usually there are studs pointing away from the body of the slave. Simply take the threaded studs out and put them in facing the other direction, towards the body of the slave.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 04-27-2013).]
After dropping my cradle to see why my clutch was not disengaging, spec had sent me the wrong clutch for my application. Another is on the way, since its over was over 45 days , I was out of luck, buy another clutch.
Moving the body of the slave would be no different than using a long slave push rod....and that does not work since the THROW of the slave will be the same in either case.
Moving the body of the slave would be no different than using a long slave push rod....and that does not work since the THROW of the slave will be the same in either case.
Larry, I know exactly what you're saying. However, that doesn't apply here. There was discussion earlier in this thread that perhaps (for whatever reason) the slave had reached the end of its outward travel (ie the internal piston of the slave was hitting the end of the inside of the cylinder). In this situation, my suggestion is still quite valid.
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Originally posted by phonedawgz:
Define "lock up the slave"
Do you mean the slave cylinder reaches full extension? If the slave reaches full extension without the pushrod moving over 1" then there is no way the slave can disengage the clutch. Either the slave pushrod is too short, or the slave pushrod arm is on the throw out shaft wrong.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 04-26-2013).]
In your first post you say it drove well to the first alignment shop. If it drove OK on that trip then the clutch disc is in correctly. When it is in backwards the springs and plate collide with the rear of the flywheel and it will never release no matter what you do. Larry
Good to know. This is the first clutch I've ever installed, and I wanted to be sure. Thank you.
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Originally posted by Patrick:
If there's still some question as to whether the slave pushrod is extending far enough towards the clutch fork, another way of dealing with this is to move the slave to the other side of the mounting bracket. This places the whole shebang closer to the clutch fork. More importantly, it moves the internal piston back another half inch or so away from the end of it's outward travel.
Using a googled image below, I've indicated where the slave could be moved to. Although a bolt is being used here, usually there are studs pointing away from the body of the slave. Simply take the threaded studs out and put them in facing the other direction, towards the body of the slave.
I understand the logic behind what imacflier is saying about this making no difference, but to be sure I tried it anyway. No change, but thanks for the suggestion.
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Originally posted by Ram426:
After dropping my cradle to see why my clutch was not disengaging, spec had sent me the wrong clutch for my application. Another is on the way, since its over was over 45 days , I was out of luck, buy another clutch.
This is my greatest fear, really. I've been working on this build for a long time. Going through my emails shows that I ordered this clutch Feb 14th, 2011. If it's the wrong clutch I'm up a creek and there's no way ClutchNet will do anything about it.
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Originally posted by Mykola:
Are you using the original clutch master cylinder and slave cylinder?
No. Rodney Dickman master, and a variety of slaves of different origins.
Well, RWDPLZ donated some parts to the cause and I tried it out again tonight. No change really.
I still have the rear tires off and the rear end in the air, so I'm judging performance off of the speedometer and looking at the spindles. I tried disengaging it while the engine was running, and the speedo kept at about 15 mph in 1st.
I've read Phonedawgz recommending that you pump the clutch five times and check for disengagement, so I tried that for the first time. No speed indicated on the speedo for 20 seconds.
I've bled and bled and bled this thing, but apparently there's still air in there. I'm going to order Rodney Dickman's slave cylinder and try that.
Through trials and tribulations of my own over the years, I've found that the best way to get ALL the air out of Fiero clutch hydraulics is to pressure bleed the system. Nothing else IMO comes close.
Through trials and tribulations of my own over the years, I've found that the best way to get ALL the air out of Fiero clutch hydraulics is to pressure bleed the system. Nothing else IMO comes close.
I had to do the same and it unclogged whatever was in there... I would recommend doing a pressure bleed. There might be an area in the line that has some gunk trapped holding air.
[This message has been edited by Mykola (edited 04-28-2013).]
Well Patrick and Mykola, I bought Rodney Dickman's Isuzu slave, installed it and pressure bled it. I'm still a little less than an inch of disengagement. I still can't shift into gear unless I pump up the clutch.
There's no air coming out with the fluid. I've checked the lines for leaks and I don't see any (but I can't get to the hidden portion of the front flex line). I've bled it regularly, via gravity, vacuum, and pressure. Pumping it up indicates that there's still air in there, right?
I left it with the back driver's side jacked up last night to settle and make the slave the highest point of the system last night. I got a few bubbles out from loosening the bleeder and compressing the rod. Still not enough.
How much travel do you get on the rod without it deflecting the clutch arm? Like when you just hold it loose in your hand? Also, if you run it out to the limit of travel does the the clutch feel hard or does it have some softness to it? That should tell you if there is any air in the system. It is almost sounding like you are not getttin full travel on the Master so the full volume of fluid is not going into the slave. Larry
I haven't tried pulling the rod to measure pedal movement since the last time I opened the system to bleed it, but in the past I've measured it at 1/16" before it gets hard. I should try that again to check for air.
I'm wondering about the travel on the master too. I adjusted the banjo length to make it two turns shorter as a test, and I haven't lengthened it back yet. I'll give that a shot as well.
I'm wondering about the travel on the master too. I adjusted the banjo length to make it two turns shorter as a test, and I haven't lengthened it back yet. I'll give that a shot as well.
Is your clutch pedal hitting the floor while you're still trying to disengage the clutch?
I don't know why you would've adjusted the banjo length to make it any shorter. IMO, you'd want to extend the banjo as far as possible without it starting to push the clutch master in.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-03-2013).]
Is your clutch pedal hitting the floor while you're still trying to disengage the clutch?
No. I just extended the rod to match the pedal at it's highest point. Here it is fully extended:
It sits about 1.5 inches above the floor.
Forgive the dirty carpet, plan is 3800 -> Paint -> Interior.
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Originally posted by Patrick: I don't know why you would've adjusted the banjo length to make it any shorter. IMO, you'd want to extend the banjo as far as possible without it starting to push the clutch master in.
I was testing to see if I put any preload on the master, so I shortened it up to check for a difference. No change.
[This message has been edited by GM Shane (edited 05-03-2013).]
I didn't expect any preload, but at this point I'm triple checking everything.
I took a piece of sheet metal and cut a slice larger than the master's cap, and cut a sheet of rubber to match. Then I drilled a hole through the two of them.
I forced it down on the top of the reservoir with a rubber tipped air blow gun hooked up to my compressor regulated down to 5 psi. I did this without the slave pushed in, holding the slave in with a pair of vice grips, and clamping it in with a c-clamp.
I forced it down on the top of the reservoir with a rubber tipped air blow gun hooked up to my compressor regulated down to 5 psi. I did this without the slave pushed in, holding the slave in with a pair of vice grips, and clamping it in with a c-clamp.
Perhaps 5 psi isn't enough to dislodge a big air pocket. With the Motive system I've used, it was more like 10 psi that I had.
You want to have the slave pushed (and held) in all the way the whole time the bleed is being done. This prevents any air from hiding in the slave.
Perhaps 5 psi isn't enough to dislodge a big air pocket. With the Motive system I've used, it was more like 10 psi that I had.
You want to have the slave pushed (and held) in all the way the whole time the bleed is being done. This prevents any air from hiding in the slave.
The first time I pressure bled it, I had nice clean fluid coming out of the line with no bubbles. When I checked for disengagement I only had about 1/4"! So I bled it again with the rod held all the way in and got tons of air.
I'll try bleeding it again with a higher pressure but I felt pretty good at 5 psi. I'm really wondering about that pedal height now.
With a new (unbent) pedal, and the banjo adjusted so that you're getting maximum stroke at the master, there shouldn't be an issue. Just what is the pedal height in relation to the brake pedal?
To set the pedal height this time, I pulled the pedal as far as I could towards the driver. Then I adjusted the banjo length to match and tightened the jam nut. Here it is, about 1" higher than the brake pedal:
When I installed Rodney's master, I matched the banjo length to the old master cylinder. With the banjo at it's current length, I can't extend the pedal far enough to satisfy the clutch safety switch so I had to jump it. When it was matched to the old cylinder it worked fine, that's why I'm concerned that the pedal travel might be wrong. I don't think it's going down far enough.
At this length I should be getting the maximum length at the pedal.
I guess I'm just grasping at straws, man. It really doesn't make any sense to me. I know that the fact that it shifts well when I pump it up means that there should be air in there somewhere, but I'm not getting any air out! I've probably put two gallons of fluid through at this point.
When I installed Rodney's master, I matched the banjo length to the old master cylinder. With the banjo at it's current length, I can't extend the pedal far enough to satisfy the clutch safety switch so I had to jump it. When it was matched to the old cylinder it worked fine, that's why I'm concerned that the pedal travel might be wrong. I don't think it's going down far enough.
The clutch safety switch is adjustable, is it not?
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Originally posted by GM Shane:
To set the pedal height this time, I pulled the pedal as far as I could towards the driver. Then I adjusted the banjo length to match and tightened the jam nut. Here it is, about 1" higher than the brake pedal:
At this length I should be getting the maximum length at the pedal.
That's what you want.
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Originally posted by GM Shane:
I guess I'm just grasping at straws, man. It really doesn't make any sense to me. I know that the fact that it shifts well when I pump it up means that there should be air in there somewhere, but I'm not getting any air out! I've probably put two gallons of fluid through at this point.
It doesn't matter how much fluid you pump through the system if a pocket of air is still trapped and/or air is being sucked in somewhere. Keep in mind it's possible for air to enter the system without fluid appearing to leak out.
Originally posted by Patrick: The clutch safety switch is adjustable, is it not?
I didn't know that. I'll fix that next, thanks.
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Originally posted by Patrick: That's what you want.
Okay. Especially considering I can adjust the safety switch. Is it acceptable that it bottoms out about 1.5" above the floor? It felt much lower on the old master cylinder.
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Originally posted by Patrick: It doesn't matter how much fluid you pump through the system if a pocket of air is still trapped and/or air is being sucked in somewhere. Keep in mind it's possible for air to enter the system without fluid appearing to leak out.
Where else can I check for an air leak besides the slave piston? I'm assuming I'm not getting air in there now due to the Rodney Dickman slave. The presence of an air leak would explain why I could drive the car one night and not the next morning.
I really appreciate the help, man. This is actually my first manual transmission car. I know my way around an engine bay with an auto trans, but at this point I'm in uncharted territory. I apologize if any of these questions seem stupid.
Can you push the clutch pedal clear into the carpet? On MANY Fiero's, that is the only way to get enough throw at the slave.
Since pumping the clutch makes a difference, you are right and there must still be air in the system. My bet is in the slave (air remaining from the orginial installation since it is a Rodney slave). I suggest you unbolt the slave and use a ratching clamp to fully compress the slave pushrod. Attach a one way valve to the bleeder with some clear tubing leading (Rodney sells this combo) into a clear bottle with the end of the tubing submerged in some fluid at the bottom of the bottle. Let the slave just dangle from its hydraulic line....THEN bleed....then release the ratching clamp allowing the slave to refill (no way for air to get into the slave at this point). Then use the clamp to compress the slave again to verify no air remains in the slave. Close the bleeder and release the clamp. I will BET you have it fixed at that point!
Larry
[This message has been edited by imacflier (edited 05-03-2013).]
IMO, you'd want to extend the banjo as far as possible without it starting to push the clutch master in.
