quote Originally posted by imacflier: Shane, Can you push the clutch pedal clear into the carpet? On MANY Fiero's, that is the only way to get enough throw at the slave.

No. The pedal ends about 1.5" above the carpet. I'm not sure if I should adjust the banjo so that it lets the pedal go lower or not.

quote Originally posted by imacflier: Since pumping the clutch makes a difference, you are right and there must still be air in the system. My bet is in the slave (air remaining from the orginial installation since it is a Rodney slave). I suggest you unbolt the slave and use a ratching clamp to fully compress the slave pushrod. Attach a one way valve to the bleeder with some clear tubing leading (Rodney sells this combo) into a clear bottle with the end of the tubing submerged in some fluid at the bottom of the bottle. Let the slave just dangle from its hydraulic line....THEN bleed....then release the ratching clamp allowing the slave to refill (no way for air to get into the slave at this point). Then use the clamp to compress the slave again to verify no air remains in the slave. Close the bleeder and release the clamp. I will BET you have it fixed at that point! Larry

I bought Rodney's slave bleeder along with the slave, so I have that on hand! I don't have a big enough ratcheting clamp to fit the slave. I'll pick one up and some more brake fluid (I'm out), and I'll give this a try. Thanks for the suggestion.

Just because the master has a good name and is new does not make it for sure good. Larry

quote Originally posted by GM Shane: The pedal ends about 1.5" above the carpet. I'm not sure if I should adjust the banjo so that it lets the pedal go lower or not.

You can adjust it so that the pedal goes as low as you want... HOWEVER, do not adjust it so low that the carpet/floor is impeding the pedal travel.

quote Originally posted by GM Shane: I bought Rodney's slave bleeder along with the slave, so I have that on hand! I don't have a big enough ratcheting clamp to fit the slave. I'll pick one up and some more brake fluid (I'm out), and I'll give this a try. Thanks for the suggestion.

With all due respect to Larry (imacflier), you do not need to unmount the slave and use a ratcheting clamp etc. It won't hurt, but IMO it's more work and unnecessary.

By clamping vicegrips perpendicular onto the slave rod, it's very easy to pull the slave rod/piston towards you (while standing beside the car). While still holding the vicegrips/slave rod, place a wedge shaped piece of wood between the end of the slave rod and the clutch fork to hold it there while you proceed with bleeding the system.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-03-2013).]

Post script for those interested, and for search purposes. I needed to leave town for the weekend, so Friday morning I jacked the drivers side front up about 3 feet, and the rear up about 2 feet. I retracted the slave rod and clamped it in, and walked away.

Last night I bled it again and got a few air bubbles out, but not a huge amount. I dropped the car down today, adjusted the cables, and test drove it, and it shifts perfectly! No troubles getting into 1st or Reverse.

Now I need to reinstall the air intake and wheel well, and just do a few things to button it up. I hope it stays this way.

I'm thinking that my cobbled together slave was letting air in, and that bleeding it was a ***** . I still have a little less than 1" displacement, but that seems to be enough.

Thanks everyone for their help. I hope it stays this way.

Sounds like you may have the clutch master cylinder banjo adjusted too far out. The banjo has to go on the clutch pedal pin freely. Once the banjo is on the clutch pedal pin you should be able to pull it off the pin and there should be some room to lift the pedal. If you have to depress the banjo to get it on the clutch pedal pin it is closing the bleed port and will not allow any fluid in from the reservoir. Adjusted like this the pedal will never stop before it hits the floor.

As an update to this thread, I had to park the car for a month. After I returned I was able to take it on a couple of short trips and it drove fine, then it stopped shifting again. Following trotterlg's suggestion, I asked Rodney for his input because I'm kinda scratching my head.

quote Originally posted by Rodney: Sounds like you may have the clutch master cylinder banjo adjusted too far out. The banjo has to go on the clutch pedal pin freely. Once the banjo is on the clutch pedal pin you should be able to pull it off the pin and there should be some room to lift the pedal. If you have to depress the banjo to get it on the clutch pedal pin it is closing the bleed port and will not allow any fluid in from the reservoir. Adjusted like this the pedal will never stop before it hits the floor.

I tried this and it helped a bit. I adjusted the banjo to where the pedal sits roughly 3/4" above the brake pedal, and about 1/2" above the floor when fully pushed. I was able to shift into gear while running, but only after seriously fighting the shifter. I had just installed a shifter rebuild kit and sport shifter, so I adjusted the shift cables every which way to little help. I was able to drive the car, but after a block or two I lost access to 1-2 and had to bring it home in 3rd gear.

quote Originally posted by Rodney: As I have said many many times. The first thing to do is measure the amount of throw on the release arm on the trans. You can not do anything until that measurement is taken. First adjust the banjo as I described above. Then have someone push in the clutch while you hold a scale above the lever on the trans. Let us know the amount of movement you get.

Cold iron, I measure 15/16" of displacement on the slave. After everything warms up a bit, shifting gets much worse and it measures 7/8". When it's cold, the car doesn't move in gear with the clutch disengaged. When warm, it moves slightly.

I haven't bled it again since I returned. When I first came home it was shifting PERFECTLY, I just need to figure what could have changed.

Any ideas? Thanks everyone.

So what is limiting the pedal from traveling to the floor? Is it something up front or is it the slave reaching the end of it's travel?

When you are bleeding can the pedal touch the floor? If yes, then the problem is your slave is reaching the end of it's travel.

If no, then the problem is up front.

quote Cold iron, I measure 15/16" of displacement on the slave. After everything warms up a bit, shifting gets much worse and it measures 7/8". When it's cold, the car doesn't move in gear with the clutch disengaged. When warm, it moves slightly.

Yep. I would expect that when the travel is down to 7/8 you are going to have problems. 15/16 is very borderline.

You need that missing pedal travel so it can become slave travel so you can shift it.


--

If with the current adjustable banjo adjustment and under dash configuration, the pedal was reaching the floor for bleeding, then it sounds like the problem is that the slave is reaching the end of it's travel. The thing to look for is how far does the slave pushrod push the slave piston up it's bore, when you are installing the slave. If the pushrod doesn't push the slave piston back at least 1 1/8" there is no way the piston can push the pushrod out 1 1/8". The piston will reach the end of it's travel and with a properly bled clutch, it will feel like the pedal is being stopped by something mechanical.

If the pushrod isn't pushing the slave piston back far enough, you can either move the arm on shaft, or you can use a longer pushrod. My Isuzu slave's pushrod is longer than stock. I am not sure exactly what isn't stock on my tranny. It might be a bent arm. Maybe something else. Maybe the clutch disk is thicker. Maybe my throw out plate's fingers are not stock height. But the longer pushrod allows the slave piston to move correctly and at that point it all worked so I stopped scratching. Aim for the pushrod length to be long enough to give you some leeway before it topps out. I ended up cutting my slave pushrod from the handle of a Fiero jack I had sitting around from the transmission donor car.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 06-23-2013).]

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: So what is limiting the pedal from traveling to the floor? Is it something up front or is it the slave reaching the end of it's travel? When you are bleeding can the pedal touch the floor? If yes, then the problem is your slave is reaching the end of it's travel. If no, then the problem is up front. Yep. I would expect that when the travel is down to 7/8 you are going to have problems. 15/16 is very borderline. You need that missing pedal travel so it can become slave travel so you can shift it. -- If with the current adjustable banjo adjustment and under dash configuration, the pedal was reaching the floor for bleeding, then it sounds like the problem is that the slave is reaching the end of it's travel. The thing to look for is how far does the slave pushrod push the slave piston up it's bore, when you are installing the slave. If the pushrod doesn't push the slave piston back at least 1 1/8" there is no way the piston can push the pushrod out 1 1/8". The piston will reach the end of it's travel and with a properly bled clutch, it will feel like the pedal is being stopped by something mechanical. If the pushrod isn't pushing the slave piston back far enough, you can either move the arm on shaft, or you can use a longer pushrod. My Isuzu slave's pushrod is longer than stock. I am not sure exactly what isn't stock on my tranny. It might be a bent arm. Maybe something else. Maybe the clutch disk is thicker. Maybe my throw out plate's fingers are not stock height. But the longer pushrod allows the slave piston to move correctly and at that point it all worked so I stopped scratching. Aim for the pushrod length to be long enough to give you some leeway before it topps out. I ended up cutting my slave pushrod from the handle of a Fiero jack I had sitting around from the transmission donor car.

I'm sorry for taking so long to reply. Busy the past few days and I've been working on this on and off.

I cut a new slave rod at 6-1/4", the one that was in there was somewhere in the neighborhood of 5-3/4". This did not solve the problem, and disengagement is still slightly shy of 1" but shifting is marginally better. I'm able to get it in gear even when its hot.

Just for grins, I adjusted the banjo to where the pedal would bottom out on the floor. There was no change in shift quality.

I repositioned the banjo to where I feel it's correct. The pedal is as close to the driver as possible, there is no preload on the master, and it sits about 1" above the brake pedal.

In this position the pedal does NOT hit the floor when fully extended, even while bleeding. Both normally and while bleeding, it feels like I've hit the end of travel on the master cylinder. There's a little extra give at the bottom of the pedal, but that feels like I'm just stressing the linkage or pedal and not actually actuating the master any further (I hope that makes sense).

So, following your logic phonedawgz, something is messed in my master cylinder? Is it worth ordering a cheap AutoZone master to see if that solves the problem? Or are all AZ hydraulics garbage?

Additional notes:

I've gone through my build notes searching for an answer. This flywheel was a Camaro flywheel that I had balanced and shaved down to 0.820". I realize that the standard is 0.840", but I had concerns about the pressure plate rubbing. I've read on here that 0.820" is acceptable, but could it cause the issues that I'm seeing here?

Prior to the swap as an Iron Duke / Isuzu combo with a stock slave and master, I had no issues and I did not open the system while performing the swap. I drove on that for three years with only one issue shifting into reverse.

As always, thanks for your help.

I have a few pressure plates around from different engine transmission combo's Some of them end up with differetn heights when bolted to a flywheel with the same clutch plate in them. What may have happened to you is that, when new, the release fingers were lower (the clutch plate was thicker) and they required less travel to releae the clutch. As the plate wore and got thinner the fingers get higher, they may end up with a different geomerty that may require more travel to release the clutch. Not saying this is the problem, but it would explain the results you have and from what I have seen there are a lot of minor variations in how pressure plates act even though they are all intended for a Fiero. Larry

quote Originally posted by trotterlg: I have a few pressure plates around from different engine transmission combo's Some of them end up with differetn heights when bolted to a flywheel with the same clutch plate in them. What may have happened to you is that, when new, the release fingers were lower (the clutch plate was thicker) and they required less travel to releae the clutch. As the plate wore and got thinner the fingers get higher, they may end up with a different geomerty that may require more travel to release the clutch. Not saying this is the problem, but it would explain the results you have and from what I have seen there are a lot of minor variations in how pressure plates act even though they are all intended for a Fiero. Larry

I'm thinking something similar, especially because I read another post of someone having issues with ClutchNet clutches lately.

I've been doing some tinkering lately. Signs were pointing towards me having the banjo length set incorrectly, and to rule our trottlelg and Patrick's concerns about the master I picked up an AutoZone master cylinder.

We all know that Duralast doesn't make the highest quality parts, but I figured it was worth a shot for $40. Installed and bled I still get about 15/16 of displacement, but at least the pedal hits the floor when fully depressed. I don't get better disengagement when I pump the clutch, so I'm pretty sure there is no air in the system.

So I'm looking for help making a decision about where to go next. I figure no matter what I'll put the RD master back on and then:

Transmission Swap: I have another Isuzu from my original engine that's proven to work. I could pull the current transmission and swap it out. I can't see this providing much of a benefit, but at this point who knows. The arm on this transmission has the plastic bushing on it, which is not cracked but is dented.

Throwout Spacer: I read another example of doubling up on throwout bearings to solve an issue like this. Is that worth a shot? Should I have a metal ring machined to go between the fork and the bearing? This seems like it might be a band aid solution.

Spec Clutch: It seems like everyone and their brother bolts on a Spec Stage 3+ and is going down the road with no headache at all. I haven't read any cases of success with the ClutchNet (anyone?). Perhaps the fingers on the ClutchNet clutch are far too stiff causing pressure to overcome the relief valve in the master cylinder.

So, people of Pennock's if you were in my shoes what would you try next? Is there an option that I haven't considered?

If the pedal hits the floor now you may not be getting the full stroke on the master and therefor not getting the full release stroke on the slave.

But what can be stopping full release on the slave? Could I be correct about the tension on the clutch fingers being too high and tripping the relief valve in the master?

Well, turns out the pressure plate fingers are hitting the clutch springs:





I called ClutchNet to see if they'll make this right, but they're not in yet. I'm not really happy at the moment.

Looks like a design problem to me. If you were to run one of the puck type clutch plates you would gain a lot of clerance from the fingers to the springs. The puck type clutches are thinner than the organic type so the fingers will start out higher before the clutch is released. Also, the puck type discs take less plate movement to release because they don't have the spring chshion design that the organic discs have. Larry

Just for clarification, which clutch is that? Is it listed on their website (http://clutchnet.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&category_id=9664&page=shop.browse&Itemid=140&limitstart=0&limit=25) ? My clutch isn't listed there any longer.

Hopefully, if I can get them to pick up the phone I'd like to do an exchange. Keep my pressure plate and get a puck clutch. Any idea if 6BS3781
Racing 6 Button 'E-Z LOCK' Sprung Hub Clutch Disc would fit under the pressure plate?

If you look at these puck discs you will find that they are sold under many many names and brands, for a wide range of prices. A close look will show them to be identical items. This is the one I have in my 3.1 aluminum head, but the same one is sold by about a dozen other companies. Larry

Puck Clutch

quote Originally posted by trotterlg: Also, the compatablity chart is all messed up and says it won't fit, the chart is wrong. Larry

So that will work on an Isuzu, not just on a Getrag?

Thanks so much for your help.

Yes, input splines (14) and diameter (9 1/8) I have it bolted up to mine right now. Larry

The one you listed states it is for a 2.5 which (atleast in some years) had a smaller diameter disc. Those guys are really proud of their clutch discs aren't they? When you have it bolted up and before you put it back in the car, you can put a wrench on the arm and try releasing it, push in the arm and turn an axel when it is in gear (High) or 5th. Larry

[This message has been edited by trotterlg (edited 07-23-2013).]

It's been over two weeks since I shipped my clutch disk back to ClutchNet, and I can't get an email reply or phone call through to them. I gave in and ordered one of those ebay clutches you showed me, TrotterLG.

I stuck it under the ClutchNet pressure plate and bolted it up to the 3800. I'm getting smarter and didn't put the car back together before measuring disengagement, I just bolted on the slave and gave it a go (advantage of doing the cradle - tip). Still less than 1", which is presumably not enough disengagement.

I plucked it back out again, thinking that I might be able to use my stock Isuzu pressure plate from the original transmission.

With the ClutchNet pressure plate on the workbench, I took a measurement. This is a 9" pressure plate, not 9-1/8".



I don't know if that extra 1/8" would make all the difference in the world, but it makes me think that this isn't a Fiero pressure plate at all. Does a standard 9-1/8" pressure plate actually measure 9-1/8"?

Here's a pic of the new puck clutch sitting a top the ClutchNet pressure plate. There's a small overlap on the edge:



My OEM Isuzu clutch measures about 8.5", so that's the smaller disc you were speaking of, I presume:



That clutch disk and pressure plate combo matches precisely:



Interesting thing is both pressure plates are about the same height:



So do I need to source a 9-1/8" pressure plate from somewhere? Will a stock Fiero plate work? I've given up on hearing from ClutchNet.

Yes, a stock pressure plate as long as it is 9 1/8 will work fine. With the puck clutch it will give you about 25 to 30% more grip than a stock one. Larry

Ok, we'll from the pics I see and what I went thought in my situation , my clutch would not disengage and spec sent me the wrong clutch , the fingers on the wrong clutch were straight like yours are in the pics, the new correct clutch from spec the ends of the finger s are bent which gave more movement for the tob and it worked. This worked for me, just my two cents, wish I took a pic , I just threw the straight fingered spec 3 in the trash

Couple of different Fiero clutches:

Addendum:

I've been driving my car daily for about two months now. I've received a couple PMs asking about what happened, so if anyone searches this out here's some info.

I ordered one of the ebay clutches trotterlg was talking about, and it was too large for my pressure plate so I ordered a stock Getrag pressure plate. These both measure 9-1/8". After installation, I couldn't get the motor to turn because there wasn't enough room to rotate that large of a clutch. I knew that this probably wouldn't fit in an Isuzu, but the price was right so I went for it. I've read that you can clearance the Isuzu to make it fit, but I didn't want to do that.

I wound up ordering a Spec Stage 3. Note that the P/N for an Isuzu is different than the suggested P/N for a 3800 Fiero, the Isuzu part number is SC783 for the Spec Stage 3 and SC783F for a Stage 3+.

Other than that, it works great. The car is fun to drive and tuning has been a blast. Thanks to everyone for your help, but especially trotterlg and Patrick. This forum is full of great people and great advice.