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Car starts, wont stay running unless moving throttle. by Shonyman32
Started on: 02-28-2013 11:25 AM
Replies: 207 (6338 views)
Last post by: 2.5 on 11-27-2013 11:18 AM
Shonyman32
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Report this Post08-20-2013 06:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Got .281-.283 by measuring the NORTH-SOUTH then EAST-WEST. Thickest part and thinnest part then subtracting the differences. Took about ten measurements that is why it is .281-.283.
Also that could be the intake or the exhaust lobe because I did not specify what lobe it was. I would assume it is the intake though but not sure.
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post08-20-2013 08:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Who would I talk to about tuning?
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Report this Post08-22-2013 01:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for armosSend a Private Message to armosEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Shonyman32:

What do you have to buy to start tuning?


For the factory ECM, you'd need an EPROM programmer, a supply of EPROM chips, and a UV eraser.

There's a product by Moates some people use. I don't know much about it. I think the main appeal is that it works more easily with other ECMs that don't have a socketed EPROM. The chip on stock Fiero ECMs is socketed, but if you expect to change to a different ECM then maybe Moates is the way to go. The Moates also probably has good support and is a current product. Lots of people use Moates on car forums, so it might be easier to get help with it if needed.

For the stock ECM, any general purpose EPROM programmer that supports the correct chips will work. This is the kind of thing I would buy used, but you have to be careful because many times the supporting software isn't available. Without that software, the device is worthless. Also, older programmers require a PC with a parallel port. I wouldn't buy any used programmer without *first* obtaining the software, and making sure it will do what you need it to do.
BP Microsystems makes good programmers and has the software available for old models (it's not updated anymore, but it doesn't need to be). An EP-1132 or EP-1140 would work. I saw some of those on eBay just now but I can't vouch for any particular listing. I noticed one of them had a return policy, most of them don't. It looks like nobody fully tests them, they just check if they'll turn on.
These programmers are old models from the 90's. They need a PC with a parallel printer port and either DOS, Win9x or NT4/2000/XP. I don't know if it works with Vista or newer, never tried. But since they need a parallel port, I'd use an older Pre-Vista computer with it.
If you do look into these, I'd stay away from the EP-1. Those are cheap but it uses a serial port and I'm not sure it even supports Windows, except by using HyperTerminal. I could be wrong about it but from what I remember reading, it sounded like not a model worth messing with. The EP-1132/1140 have better software support.


* Chips:
For the stock ECM, the chips would need to be type 2732A, and I think regular 2732 also works. Needs to be a 24-pin DIP style chip (would look like the one that's already in the car). Not a PLCC. You can get old chips for a few bucks on eBay. I'd try to find a listing for 5-10 of them at a lower unit cost, it's convenient to have several and occasionally you might run into some that don't work right.
There might be differences between brands, so it would be safest to get a brand that's explicitly listed in the EPROM programmer's software. The chips I use on my car are SGS-Thomson M2732A. They're old, mine are dated 1988. Some other brands of 2732A that I see listed in BP's software are STMicroelectronics, Texas Instruments, Intel, AMD. Moates might have their own list.

UV EPROM Eraser:
This is a small device that erases chips using ultraviolet light. It's just a sealed container with a UV bulb inside it. You'd want one with a timer, because erasing for too long can damage a chip. There's lots of these on eBay.


I've heard of people adapting Flash chips in some ECMs, instead of using EPROMs. I don't know if that applies to the stock 7170 Fiero ECM. Flash would eliminate the need for an eraser. However, I've seen a situation (not a car) where Flash memory did not work reliably in place of an EPROM, due to a subtle difference in how they're accessed electronically.
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Report this Post08-22-2013 09:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This guy is known in the Fiero community and does tuing on GM stuff. I'd say send him an email.

http://www.gmtuners.com/

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Report this Post09-12-2013 10:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hiwil88formulaClick Here to Email hiwil88formulaSend a Private Message to hiwil88formulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So last week I was having this problem, car would not idle at all. I had a bad vacuum hose at the evap can, I know you checked at the motor but what about there. Hope this helps, mine is running very well now.

Hywel
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post10-11-2013 06:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What are the vac. lines to the evap canister?

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Shonyman32
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Report this Post10-16-2013 03:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Still no head way. Any more help?
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post10-16-2013 03:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Shonyman32

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I am really starting to lean even more towards 17 lb injectors.
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Report this Post10-16-2013 03:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Shonyman32:

I am really starting to lean even more towards 17 lb injectors.


What will that fix?
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Report this Post10-16-2013 05:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My BLM's are reading 150 when driving.

[This message has been edited by Shonyman32 (edited 10-16-2013).]

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Shonyman32
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Report this Post10-16-2013 05:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Shonyman32

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What other things do I have to fix other than tuning? I have checked every single sensor on the car and all are in good working order.
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Report this Post10-18-2013 04:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Gapped plugs from .45 to .35 which made the car idle worse but rev greater. Then re gapped the plugs to .5 and it is idling great than it ever has but still has a misfire and will only idle after a minute of driving.
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Report this Post10-22-2013 01:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The car now idles a lot better after gapping the spark plugs but I still have to rev the motor on initial start up for 5 to 10 seconds and then it will idle at 900 rpms cold. It has a very noticeable misfire at idle although I do not feel any cutting out at any speeds. When warm the car idles at 1200 rpms. Both are in neutral. There is still a very noticeable misfire when cold or warm.

The only code I throw is a code 32 and I blocked the EGR off to eliminate that it might be causing this.
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Report this Post10-22-2013 10:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hiwil88formulaClick Here to Email hiwil88formulaSend a Private Message to hiwil88formulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sorry for not replying earlier, the vaccum lines run alon the trunk wall to the evap can adjacent to the air filter housing. The vaccum lines connect up to the motor next to the dog bone. Check on both ends, I also believe there is a vaccum port for the cruise control that runs along the hard lines on the trunk wall.
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Report this Post10-22-2013 12:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Shonyman32:

The car now idles a lot better after gapping the spark plugs but I still have to rev the motor on initial start up for 5 to 10 seconds and then it will idle at 900 rpms cold. It has a very noticeable misfire at idle although I do not feel any cutting out at any speeds. When warm the car idles at 1200 rpms. Both are in neutral. There is still a very noticeable misfire when cold or warm.

The only code I throw is a code 32 and I blocked the EGR off to eliminate that it might be causing this.


Want to post some videos?
Sure the misfire is not cam lope? You said this is an agressive cam right?
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Report this Post10-22-2013 01:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I will check the vacuum lines. Also I do not know if the cam is aggressive. All I know is it had more duration than the high lift comp cam I had. I figured duration was better than lift on the 2.8.

Also I will post a video as soon as possible. I will have to wait until a friend come over because I have no camera.
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Report this Post10-22-2013 04:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC2FiysPCYk&feature=youtu.be[youtube]
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Report this Post10-22-2013 04:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Shonyman32

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http://www.youtube.com/watc...CYk&feature=youtu.be

In the begining I have to rev it up or it won't idle.

[This message has been edited by Shonyman32 (edited 10-22-2013).]

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Report this Post10-22-2013 06:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hiwil88formulaClick Here to Email hiwil88formulaSend a Private Message to hiwil88formulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Also if your BLM's are 150 when driving, it means you are running lean. This could be caused by a vacuum leak or possibly a clogged injector. Did you reuse the factory vacuum lines or did you use newer stainless? The factory ones are extremely brittle and could have a crack in them making the vacuum leak hard to find. When you put your factory injectors back in did you have them cleaned first? They could be clogged and not providing enough fuel making it lean. Check the vacuum lines I told you about earlier first, then reinspect all the lines under the plenium. And lastly get your factory injectors cleaned, or buy another set of 15lb injectors. I don't think upgrading to 17lb ones is gonna help you out a lot, prolly just make it run rich all the time, unless you get the car tuned.
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Report this Post10-23-2013 05:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I still haven't had time to check the Vac. lines but the fuel injectors I took out and personally cleaned. First time cleaning fuel injectors btw.
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Report this Post10-24-2013 03:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I noticed some white smoke the other night although it was cold outside I then told myself I needed to check the coolant next time I had the chance and this is what I came up with.
I checked my coolant level and it was low. Roughly 1/4 gallon to 1/2 gallon low with about 2 to 3 months driving on it. I know this is not normal. I have no coolant leaks. At least I don't have a coolant leak that is big enough to let water drip on the ground. I have never noticed coolant drip from my car before or after the rebuild. This tells me I am burning coolant in the combustion chambers. Also I have not done a compression check yet either will hopefully get that done in the next couple of days.

When I rebuilt the engine I did use brand new head gaskets, but the company I ordered off of had very poor quality as I can tell now. Also had a problem getting parts from them and then got several wrong parts multiple times. So if it is the head gasket I am not surprised, although this was my first time rebuilding an engine so I could have screwed up as well.

My question to you guys would be can low compression and a bad head gasket cause the problems I am having?
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Report this Post10-25-2013 03:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
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Report this Post10-26-2013 01:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Does that make sense to anybody? Also I checked the Vac. Lines to the evap can and they are fine.
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Report this Post10-27-2013 01:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Since it has recently got cold I have been using the heater and in the morning (cold mornings) it takes about 3 minutes until air is even above ambient temp and 5 minutes to get any real heat. It takes more than ten minutes for the car to develop full heat. Is this normal?
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Report this Post10-27-2013 01:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I don't think so, but I don't drive my Fiero in cold weather. Testing the thermostat is pretty easy.
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Report this Post10-27-2013 05:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Brand new thermostat. I have tested it. Taken it out and put it in several times.
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Report this Post10-28-2013 10:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Shonyman32:

Since it has recently got cold I have been using the heater and in the morning (cold mornings) it takes about 3 minutes until air is even above ambient temp and 5 minutes to get any real heat. It takes more than ten minutes for the car to develop full heat. Is this normal?


If you are only idling it it sounds normal to me.
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Report this Post10-28-2013 03:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Since it has recently got cold I have been using the heater and in the morning (cold mornings) it takes about 3 minutes until air is even above ambient temp and 5 minutes to get any real heat. It takes more than ten minutes for the car to develop full heat. Is this normal?


This is driving time.
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Report this Post10-30-2013 10:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would keep monitoring that coolant level. The only thing that reminds me of is a Mercury Grand Marquis I had with a 302, it either had a head gasket leak or more likley a cracked head. It would miss when cold due to burning antifreeze. It wasnt as bad after it warmed up because metal swells when hot and I assume the crack got smaller. It was a beater so i used a coolant additive block seal on it and it helped. I would not recommend that on your engine though.

You can have the cooling system pressure checked to see if it is leaking somewhere.

You coudl also double check bolt torques on the head and such, make sure you followed install procedure right, some engines you lube the bolts with light oil when installing to get proper torque. I'm not sure if you do on Fieros.

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Report this Post10-30-2013 02:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I hadn't even thought about doing a coolant system pressure check. I will do one and post the results.
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Report this Post10-30-2013 05:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes your 150 BLM means the ECM is adding quite a bit of fuel compared to the base programming for your engine.

A vacuum leak won't cause your engine to run lean. The ECM looks at the MAP (manifold absolute pressure sensor) to figure how much air is in the intake. It doesn't know or care if the air got in past the throttle plate, past the IAC or in via a vacuum leak. The ECM is programmed to inject the correct amount of fuel into the engine based on the amount of air the ECM calculates is in the engine.

The evap purge port is connected to a ported vacuum source. That means there is no vacuum at the evap purge port of the throttle body unless the throttle plate is past the idle position. Because of this the evap purge system (canister) can't cause an idle problem.

Does your MAP readings look right? Have you tried swapping your MAP sensor? Since the ECM is running the engine too lean, this could be caused by a MAP sensor that sees too little absolute intake pressure. This could also be said that the MAP sensor sees 'too much vacuum'. Too much vacuum could only be caused by a bad sensor or bad wiring since it isn't possible to have the sensor be connected to anything that has more than engine vacuum so don't worry about vacuum lines.

Is your fuel pressure correct? Has this engine sat for a long time and perhaps the injectors are partially plugged?

Are both sets of injectors firing? Unlatch your fuse box and let it swing down vertically. Unplug the INJ1 fuse and see how it affects the engine operation. Then plug it back in and try the INJ2 fuse. Each fuse should affect the engine about the same. If one kills the engine and the other does nothing then you are only running on one set of injectors. Of course while the fuse is out check and make sure the fuse looks good. They are 5A fuses.

------
If you decide to do your own programming check out your eprom burner carefully. Many can not burn the 2732A chips. Here is are two that can - The GQ3x and GQ4x - http://www.mcumall.com/come...m.asp?idproduct=4282

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 10-30-2013).]

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Report this Post11-07-2013 05:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Did a coolant pressure check and found out I have a bad pressure cap and a coolant leak when under pressure. Will be doing a compression check soon.
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Report this Post11-12-2013 09:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Fixed the coolant leak and haven't driven long enough to see if my coolant level is still going down, but it is taking me a very long time to get heat now. Even longer than before. I did the coolant fill procedure and it still acts like I have air in the system.
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Report this Post11-12-2013 04:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My MAP readings do look right. I have tried two MAP sensors.

My fuel pressure is not correct. It is more than it is supposed to be actually. I unplugged the VAC. line to the FPR and plugged the line so the fuel pressure is at max.
My injectors could be partially clogged but I did spray gas and injector cleaner through them before I put them in the car and all the injectors sprayed cones. (didn't flow rate them)

Both sets of injectors are firing.
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Report this Post11-13-2013 02:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
map readings are to volts or 29.5 to 35 kpa
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Report this Post11-13-2013 02:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Shonyman32

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Also just noticed on my map that if I rev the engine in park the map readings go down to .8.
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Report this Post11-14-2013 03:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
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Report this Post11-15-2013 04:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
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Report this Post11-17-2013 05:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Still looking for help.
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Report this Post11-17-2013 07:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Why don't you recap what the problem is.....it's a pretty long thread.
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