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gear reduction starter questions by hobbywrench
Started on: 02-10-2013 07:02 PM
Replies: 18 (1026 views)
Last post by: Csjag on 05-14-2015 07:30 PM
hobbywrench
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Report this Post02-10-2013 07:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hobbywrenchSend a Private Message to hobbywrenchEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I enjoyed the archived thread on this subject so I looked at what's available. Hope opening this up again after the 2010 thread is acceptable. Here are my questions:

(1) I did not see discussion of a 1.4 Kw unit but they come up for 98 Pont G Prix 3.8 along with 1.5 and 1.7 . OK also?

(2) Repeatedly 8 or 9 lb weight for the later unit. Anyone know the original 2.8 starter weight?

(3) Shown 9 vs 11 tooth drives. Don't remember this discussion. Either ok on 2.8?

(4) You could wall paper with the PN's shown. Worry or just buy local and take in the 2.8 for side by side comparo?

Thanks for info. I'm updating strictly for weight. Original is working fine.
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Report this Post02-10-2013 08:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hobbywrench:

I enjoyed the archived thread on this subject so I looked at what's available. Hope opening this up again after the 2010 thread is acceptable. Here are my questions:

(1) I did not see discussion of a 1.4 Kw unit but they come up for 98 Pont G Prix 3.8 along with 1.5 and 1.7 . OK also?

(2) Repeatedly 8 or 9 lb weight for the later unit. Anyone know the original 2.8 starter weight?

(3) Shown 9 vs 11 tooth drives. Don't remember this discussion. Either ok on 2.8?

(4) You could wall paper with the PN's shown. Worry or just buy local and take in the 2.8 for side by side comparo?

Thanks for info. I'm updating strictly for weight. Original is working fine.



Yeah, the one from the 1998 Grand Prix is the one you want. I've got that same thread saved somewhere... but basically it's like 1/3rd the weight!
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hobbywrench
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Report this Post02-11-2013 02:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hobbywrenchSend a Private Message to hobbywrenchEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
TA, thanks, but what about the 1.4-1.5-1.8Kw ratings, and the 9 vs 11 tooth drive gears and the 5 delco pn's ?? tks
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FieroGT42
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Report this Post02-11-2013 03:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroGT42Click Here to Email FieroGT42Send a Private Message to FieroGT42Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Not all of the smaller ones are actually gear reduction starters, but they're still smaller, lighter and more powerful. I think it was 97+. I'm pretty sure the ones with the two rods along the outside are gear reduction. But I know that the 9 tooth was the older direct drive and 11 tooth was the gear reduction. You'll read a lot of people with '98 model year Suburbans (1997 manufacture) talking about this. They have the same pitch to the teeth, which is why the 11-tooth pinion is a larger diameter - to keep the teeth spaced the same. As with any starter swap, you might need to shim but check without shimming first. Check the Ogre's cave on this and MEASURE the engagement before you try to start it.

There are a lot of part #'s even for starters with identical specs. Probably very minor changes. But I'm pretty sure you can use anything from a 3800, 60 degree OHV (2.8, 3.1, 3.4), 2.2L OHV and a few other engines. They're in almost any GM car. I got mine from an Olds Alero with a V6.

The higher kW starters should turn over faster, but even the lowest rated one should work fine and probably still be more powerful than the original Fiero starter.
IIRC, the 1.5 is for the N/A 3800 and is more than enough, the 1.7 is for the supercharged 3800's and is overkill but will work fine. Probably 1.7 was used on bigger V8s as well.

I read that the stock starter weighs 13-15 lbs. I have one I can put on a scale tomorrow.

Jason
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hobbywrench
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Report this Post02-11-2013 10:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hobbywrenchSend a Private Message to hobbywrenchEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Jason, thanks, exactly what I needed!
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FieroGT42
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Report this Post02-11-2013 02:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroGT42Click Here to Email FieroGT42Send a Private Message to FieroGT42Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You're welcome, and the stock v6 starter weighs 14 lb 0.0 oz on my postage scale. It has maybe 1/2 ounce of crud on it from an oil leak though

[This message has been edited by FieroGT42 (edited 02-11-2013).]

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hobbywrench
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Report this Post02-11-2013 08:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hobbywrenchSend a Private Message to hobbywrenchEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Jason, again thanks. I did see extended thread on surburban fourm . Seems GM ran the 9 and 11 tooth starters simultaneously. This design uses planetary gears to achieve the small size. The chap was moaning about chinese junk, but seemed happy in his last post. I am not afraid of Taiwan, but afraid of mainland china. The going rate is about $57 and up. The $ 57 unit is
"new" so it must be offshore. Remans reallly run up, like $150-$250. Ad stated weight @ 7.7 lbs., making it 1/2 the weight of the Fiero . It is possible, I guess, china can get some things right as the koreans have. h-wrench
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Report this Post12-27-2013 09:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroGT42:

Not all of the smaller ones are actually gear reduction starters, but they're still smaller, lighter and more powerful. I think it was 97+. I'm pretty sure the ones with the two rods along the outside are gear reduction. But I know that the 9 tooth was the older direct drive and 11 tooth was the gear reduction. You'll read a lot of people with '98 model year Suburbans (1997 manufacture) talking about this. They have the same pitch to the teeth, which is why the 11-tooth pinion is a larger diameter - to keep the teeth spaced the same. As with any starter swap, you might need to shim but check without shimming first. Check the Ogre's cave on this and MEASURE the engagement before you try to start it.
Jason

Quick clarification.... I'm replacing my starter on my 2.5L with a 1.7 KW that has 11 teeth.... Since the pinion is larger, wouldn't the clearance from starter shaft to flywheel toot be greater than listed in the Ogre's cave? Or is the shaft a larger diameter as well, and thus negates the shift?

Thanks.

[This message has been edited by Twilight Fenrir (edited 12-27-2013).]

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Report this Post12-27-2013 01:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have the 1.7 kW unit in my Fiero. I found that it installs with NO shims, whereas the stock Fiero starter needs to be shimmed. But as always, YMMV. Check your clearances to be sure.
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Report this Post12-27-2013 01:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

I have the 1.7 kW unit in my Fiero. I found that it installs with NO shims, whereas the stock Fiero starter needs to be shimmed. But as always, YMMV. Check your clearances to be sure.


But what are the correct tollerances for the 11 tooth, measuring it Ogre's way? Are the numbers the same regardless of tooth count?
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Gall757
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Report this Post12-27-2013 01:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes....the design intent is for the starters to be interchangeable. The shims are for production variation in the castings and tolerance stack-ups, so they may or may not be needed no mater which starter you are using.
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Report this Post12-27-2013 03:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Right, I know that...

Sorry if I'm being dense, but I'm not certain my question is being understood... And I don't want to wind up damaging new parts, or my flywheel....

So, the service manual method of checking the spacing involves measuring the space between the meshing of the teeth. This value would not change no matter how many teeth the pinion has. However, according to the Cave, you pretty much need to be an octopus to do it, and I lack the proper hooked wire gauge to perform this setup.

The Ogre suggests measuring the distance between the starter shaft, and a tooth on the flywheel pointed straight at the shaft, by placing an 1/8 inch drillbit/feeler gauge between the two. Now, with a pinion that is larger than the original, the outer diameter of the gear changes, and would require the gap to be larger by a fraction... Unless the shaft of the starter is also larger.... Would it not?
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Report this Post12-27-2013 03:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You need to have more faith in the design engineers! I think they did all those calculations before the starter went into production.
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Report this Post12-27-2013 04:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Okay, maybe I'm overthinking it XD If my math is right, the difference is .025", bumping it from 1/8" to 3/20.... .025 is eaten up easily by the margin of error, which is .040.... Enough to probably be moot....

Sorry for being difficult ^^;
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Report this Post12-28-2013 12:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bcampbellClick Here to Email bcampbellSend a Private Message to bcampbellEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just FYI this newer/better starter also comes on Cavaliers/Sunfires with the 2.2L pushrod engine. And if you're getting one from a junkyard it's way easier to remove them from those cars . Look for an 00+ car to be sure it's the smaller version.
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Report this Post05-14-2015 12:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nebulousClick Here to visit nebulous's HomePageClick Here to Email nebulousSend a Private Message to nebulousEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I finally got around to replacing my old starter with one of these, and what a difference! The old starter could barely, groaningly, spin the crank, but this thing is downright spritely on the 2.8! Hopefully I can find one that works on my Trans Am now. Rockauto had ok prices as usual, but required a core. Ended up getting this one from Amazon for $50 and no annoying core charge. Maybe I can make a wind turbine out of the old one or something.
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Report this Post05-14-2015 12:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Same starter for 2.8 or 2.5?
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Gall757
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Report this Post05-14-2015 06:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

Same starter for 2.8 or 2.5?


yes
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Csjag
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Report this Post05-14-2015 07:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I bought a new gear reduction starter off ebay last year for my 2.5 and it lasted a month and then stopped working. I bought a regular starter from a local parts house and it still works flawlessly. The ebay unit was made in china.
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