Ok so Ive been throwing around the idea of doing a junk yard built turbo setup for my Fiero. I Know its not a great idea but I was thinking that if it was kept the boost low (5 and under) then it might be able to hold it.
Other then that how would one go about tuning for the boost with the stock computer system.
It would be cool to make a little more power out of it. It would be unique. And if it did blow then its not a huge lose.
[This message has been edited by bkaab (edited 01-19-2013).]
The Duke engine has been tubocharged before with mixed results. It is really not the best choice because the Duke is a light duty economy engine. The block is thin, the throttle body is too small as are the injectors, the fuel pump only puts out 15 psi, so fuel starvation is a concern when you apply boost. if it goes lean under boost, there goes the engine. If you have any chance of success the boost must be kept below 5 psi but more importantly you can only turbo a fresh or low mileage engine. Hanging a turbo charger on a worn high mileage Duke is a recipe for certain failure. I would not put much money into a project such as this as the cost won't give you an honest return on your investment.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
It's gonna cost a bit putting it together. More if you don't have a welder and tuning hardware/software. What's your budget? You are looking at maybe 40hp bump at 5 psi, everything done right. And it still isn't made for revving over 4500 rpm. A great learning experience but at what cost?
I was trying to figure out a way to mount an M90 and then make a plate for the bottom of that. Then have the plate turn into circle to where I can run tubing with a BOV to the throttle body. But I don't think I have enough room to mount it and run the piping.
I have a welder and a stock t25 turbo from a Turbo Grand Prix. I have the factory intercooler too that I could try to figure out a why to mount under the louvers on the trunk if I wanted to. Ill have to get piping, a BOV, some flanges, couplers, clamps,
Ok this may sound stupid but its what I have heard a lot of the people building 4.8 and 5.3 LS based builds. They like the higher mileage engines since they are broken in. They have lost compression which makes it easier to put boost to. I never understood why people say an engine must be low mileage or rebuilt to take to boost.
I kind of just want to do it to say I did it. They only thing I am concerned about is the tuning. I know I can set base timing low and I have a Holley TBI with an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. But A I don't think that would be enough. B I'd like when I am not in boost to have the car run like its stock with the timing up and stuff for better MPG.
I can't hurt the engine it it brake o well I can put another Iron duke in it for 100$ or so or it would give me a reason to put a different engine in it.
[This message has been edited by bkaab (edited 01-20-2013).]
the time and money going into setting up a duke turbo kit is probably about as much as any of the "common" engine swaps out there... maybe a little cheaper but time is really close (engine swap is probably easier time wise) and obviously the power potential of a 3400/3800 is at least 2x.
You can not X by 0. 100 X 0 = 0 OR turbo X Duke = 0
just put a can of V8 juice in the engine compartment. That is the only "MOD" you can do that will not hurt the duke. It would be more fun to tell people you have a "V8" in their, (bet them a $ ), make some money, have some fun. Save the money to pay the wrecker to tow it home.
I know I could do an engine swap and it would be a better idea. Heck I have a complete 3400 minus gaskets with a WOT-Tech street/strip turbo cam sitting in my garage And extra turbo parts from a 90 Turbo Grand Prix also. I have the 3800 in my Grand Prix that might end up in the Fiero someday if I pick up another engine to build turbo'd for my Grand prix. I have options for the future.
Like Ive said before I'm not worried about breaking it. If I do I have a back up plan. Just want to try something different. If/When it blows I will come back here and tell ya'll you were right but I would not regret doing it. I believe I could do it for around 300$. Only thing that had me concerned is the tuning to be completely streetable like it is now but be able to take some boost.
------------------ My Red Pontiac Garage _________________ -2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GT-12.71@107.92mph -1990 Pontiac ASC/Mclaren Turbo Grand Prix--15.63@86.38mph -1985 Pontiac Fiero-18.13@73.63
[This message has been edited by bkaab (edited 01-21-2013).]
Personally I'd like to see it. You are going to have to rethink the fuel delivery. Maybe a rising rate boost referenced fuel pressure regulator since the Duke only has 9-13psi to start. Have you thought about which ECM to use? The stock computer can be made to handle boost but it costs precious space in your timing and fuel tables to carve out a column for boost. You would be much better served with a change to something like MegaSquirt3 or the 1227730 which I believe were stock on some 4 cylinder cars. You would need to do some more research on that.
Boost it, blow it up, who cares? If you want to do it, go for it. I am not sure why we all act like we HAVE to do whatever everyone else does.
I think in this case people are trying to save this person the time and cost in putting a turbo on a boat anchor. The 2.5 is about the worst option for a performance fiero engine. But you are correct - he can do whatever he wants.
Yes, the Effort/Risk to Reward ratio isn't in your favor, but hey. It's a learning experience. At least you won't feel bad blowing up the engine when learning about turbo charging.
Please take vids of the engine blowing up though. (maybe a GoPro attached to the engine bay)
Yea seems fun to me, I like things that don't always make sense. And my friend's dad has a duke putting out around 130 hp at the wheels. But he has a custom cam with 0.7xx inches of lift, ported head, custom crank and dampener, full roller rockers, Holley Throttle body and fuel pump and injector and intake manifold, custom header. And it has gone around 70,000 miles like this. I am not sure about the compression, I imagine it is slightly higher than stock to compensate for the massive cam. It is an 84, but before he did the work, his block cracked and Pontiac replaced his engine with a newer one (from an 85 or something, not the newer style) it was a factory problem of some kind within the first year or two of owning the car. What is crazy is he did this engine work in like 87 or so before many people had been doing this custom work. The car is fun to drive, and it sounds wicked. It is hard to explain how it sounds, almost like it is constantly burping but in a really good way, like a dirt bike is the best comparison.
Anyways my point is that when I got my fiero with its duke I was all ready to do some cool stuff to it. The only reason I didn't and swapped in the 2.8 is because the duke would die in racing applications which is what I want to do with the car. But I support your turbo-ing and personally I would like to see it. I am pretty positive that my friend's dad had the ECM tuned as he is running aggressive timing so I can ask him about that if you want. The other option would be to carburate the car and use vaccuum advance timing and fuel pressure to tune the car. Which would be awesome
Yea seems fun to me, I like things that don't always make sense. And my friend's dad has a duke putting out around 130 hp at the wheels. But he has a custom cam with 0.7xx inches of lift, ported head, custom crank and dampener, full roller rockers, Holley Throttle body and fuel pump and injector and intake manifold, custom header
To double the hosrepower of a duke without doubling the flow of the heads is impossible at best... How is it you were able to accomplish this? Where are the dyno graphs, I am curious to see at wht RPM you are making this sort of power. What is the specific compression number? How were you able to get around the whole "700 lift would hit the pistons" thing in the duke? Stock lift is as low as it is because of interferance issues in the non reliefed pistons... And I dont think you could even design a piston with the correct reliefs in them as it crosses the centerline of the pin. without severely sacrificing compression ratio.
I am really more and more confused the more I think about this.. For a project that crazy you really should provide some numbers so it could be reproduced.
Like I said I have no idea. This is one of my best friend's dad's Car. It is the reason I bought a fiero. He had it dyno'd back in the late 80s. He is one of the smartest guys I know. Herb Adams suspension components all around, which is the Herb adams sway bars and all solid bushings in the suspension. Stock brakes but braided lines. Koni Shocks. He built it to autocross.
But all the engine specs I got just talking to him. I have no specifics but I do not think he is running the stock valves in the head. He did a huge amount of the machine work himself. I can ask him though if he has documentation for when he got it dyno'd all those years ago. He doesn't push the car past 6000rpms because well it is not designed to handle that. But it is pretty quick it is just fun to drive. And like I said, all the info I have about the car is word of mouth and all the work was done a long time ago so I am sure there is some variance there. He is not lying though if he is wrong, he just doesn't remember. The guy is brilliant though and has this nice notebook documenting his fiero and it's progress. And I do know that me and my friend have driven our cars side by side and his was faster than mine with the v6. I am on the right and my friend Nathan is on the left. It is his dad's car. You can see the Herb Adams Sway Bar. This is back in 2010 when we were seniors and I had gotten my car just a couple months ago. Nathan was the valedictorian and goes to Princeton now.
My point was just that you can still have fun with a duke even if it will never be high performance.
[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 01-24-2013).]
Originally posted by zkhennings: The guy is brilliant though and has this nice notebook documenting his fiero and it's progress. And I do know that me and my friend have driven our cars side by side and his was faster than mine with the v6.
Could you get the notebook data to share with us? Sounds interesting.
even if you "only" got 120hp from turboing the duke, that's a vast improvement over the 90 it started out with.
As for the "you would get much more hp from a v8/3800/whatever swap"-crowd... Well, you might as well consider going with a different car instead of wasting your money like that... We aren't always being intelligent about the cars we want to love, are we?
Drive it, very carefully untill the duke pukes. It will. BUT if you leave it alone, drive for mpg, it will do very good.
get a spare cradle, start your next driveline on that. You will not need anything that is on your 2.5 drive line. Keep your car together, running untill you are ready to swap it.
To double the hosrepower of a duke without doubling the flow of the heads is impossible at best... How is it you were able to accomplish this? Where are the dyno graphs, I am curious to see at wht RPM you are making this sort of power. What is the specific compression number? How were you able to get around the whole "700 lift would hit the pistons" thing in the duke? Stock lift is as low as it is because of interferance issues in the non reliefed pistons... And I dont think you could even design a piston with the correct reliefs in them as it crosses the centerline of the pin. without severely sacrificing compression ratio.
I am really more and more confused the more I think about this.. For a project that crazy you really should provide some numbers so it could be reproduced.
In an old automotive magazine I read an article about a company in CA called Pfaff Turbo. They were the original manufacturer of a Duke Turbo kit and they claimed 130HP running 7 psi of boost. They sold a few to 84 Fiero owners but once the 85 model was introduced w the V6, the kit was discontinued. A couple of years later IRM of Maryland introduced the Hitech Turbo kit for the Duke. It may have been the same kit. Forum member BV Motorsports (Steve) owned a turbo Duke. Since Steve drove the car he would be a good guy to contact for more info. He later sold the car IIRC to a forum member named Oslo. Last I heard the car was being restored. I don't think that a turbocharged Duke is a good match but it has been done before. If you don't mind blowing an engine every now and then, this setup may be for you.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Ok this may sound stupid but its what I have heard a lot of the people building 4.8 and 5.3 LS based builds. They like the higher mileage engines since they are broken in. They have lost compression which makes it easier to put boost to. I never understood why people say an engine must be low mileage or rebuilt to take to boost.
Yup, stupid pretty much describes it.
Do what you want, but people may question your sanity for putting more money in to get les power unreliably than you could with a simple 2.8 swap, reliably.
And as for new/old engines used for turbo, the reason they use new or rebuilt engines is that blowing requires efficient rings that are still sealing. Stick a turbo on an old worn engine and you'll just hasten its demise.
If you not worried about the time or money, want to have some fun, gain some experience and can laugh once it blows up then I think it would be a fun project Keep the boost low to start and document everything. Junk yard turbo builds don't have to cost too much. Just make sure you size the turbo right and upgrade the fuel pump.
Hmmm....just noticed the date of the original post...guess I'm a bit late...or it's a slow build....
[This message has been edited by Neils88 (edited 02-08-2014).]
even if you "only" got 120hp from turboing the duke, that's a vast improvement over the 90 it started out with.
As for the "you would get much more hp from a v8/3800/whatever swap"-crowd... Well, you might as well consider going with a different car instead of wasting your money like that... We aren't always being intelligent about the cars we want to love, are we?
It's amazing what they get out of modern engines. How long does it take before you can find a wrecked new car you can get the engine out of? And the computer?
At this point I've spent about five thousand in fourteen months on the car and improvements and repairs. At this rate it's not really competing with brand new econoboxes except for belonging to me, not the bank.
Maybe we need to convince GM to make a new Fiero, except I don't think they would go for a mid engine coupe. Most cars today have hatchback/pass-through trunks and at least some kind of rear seat. A hybrid might be more appealing to their engineers and marketing people. They would also probably have a hard time marketing something so low to the ground when most vehicles aim to stand with SUV's and trucks. When you're looking for your Fiero in a crowded parking lot you have to be within feet before you can see it next nearly anything on the road today.
If the OP is still pursuing this, I think an ECM swap would be advised, and you'd need to do all the research into how to tune it properly. That stuff has a steep learning curve, but it's really needed for something like this. If you try to plug in a turbo on the factory tune, it's likely to end very badly. I think it would be best to start with some ECM tuning on the existing engine, then when you get more confident start thinking about the turbo. Start simple. As you learn to tune, maybe you'll proceed with this project and maybe you won't, but the tuning knowledge will be valuable for any swaps/turbos you do in the future.
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Originally posted by 85 SE VIN 9: At this point I've spent about five thousand in fourteen months on the car and improvements and repairs. At this rate it's not really competing with brand new econoboxes except for belonging to me, not the bank.
In my opinion, they don't really make economy cars anymore, instead they design cars to meet government mandates. They get good gas mileage, but they're not economical in any other sense. Engine power is good but the designs are overly complicated, even extravagant.
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They would also probably have a hard time marketing something so low to the ground when most vehicles aim to stand with SUV's and trucks. When you're looking for your Fiero in a crowded parking lot you have to be within feet before you can see it next nearly anything on the road today.
LOL, yeah I keep being surprised by the height difference. It doesn't seem all that low when I'm sitting in it, but every time I see my car parked next to almost any modern coupe, the difference is striking. I think my roof just about lines up with a Prius' door handles. I think marketing finally figured out that women like a higher step in height, and so everybody's on that train now.
To double the hosrepower of a duke without doubling the flow of the heads is impossible at best... How is it you were able to accomplish this? Where are the dyno graphs, I am curious to see at wht RPM you are making this sort of power. What is the specific compression number? How were you able to get around the whole "700 lift would hit the pistons" thing in the duke? Stock lift is as low as it is because of interferance issues in the non reliefed pistons... And I dont think you could even design a piston with the correct reliefs in them as it crosses the centerline of the pin. without severely sacrificing compression ratio.
I am really more and more confused the more I think about this.. For a project that crazy you really should provide some numbers so it could be reproduced.
So I asked him recently how he is running so much lift without hitting the pistons, he says the cam has very unique timing to avoid hitting the pistons.
In my opinion, they don't really make economy cars anymore, instead they design cars to meet government mandates. They get good gas mileage, but they're not economical in any other sense. Engine power is good but the designs are overly complicated, even extravagant.
Didn't know that was common. I did know a lady who was conned into paying twice what a Nissan Versa was selling for, but anyway when it got a bent wheel it cost over a hundred bucks for the wheel alone. I later read that it has extraordinarily high repair costs.
LOL, yeah I keep being surprised by the height difference. It doesn't seem all that low when I'm sitting in it, but every time I see my car parked next to almost any modern coupe, the difference is striking. I think my roof just about lines up with a Prius' door handles. I think marketing finally figured out that women like a higher step in height, and so everybody's on that train now.
I thought it was to see over traffic. Of course it everybody drives something high ... I once saw a Ferrari tailgating a cab in Chicago. I'm pretty sure the cabbie didn't even see him.
Keep the boost low to start and document everything. Junk yard turbo builds don't have to cost too much. Just make sure you size the turbo right and upgrade the fuel pump.
