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I want advice/pointers on gen 1 headlight motors. by AL87
Started on: 01-14-2013 12:23 AM
Replies: 16 (501 views)
Last post by: Rsvl-Rider on 06-14-2015 11:43 AM
AL87
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Report this Post01-14-2013 12:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AL87Click Here to Email AL87Send a Private Message to AL87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Im getting ready to rebuild quite a few sets for customers locally here.
Im seeking knowledge on common problems, how the gen 1 electrical systems are supposed to work, and any troubleshooting.

I haven't dealt with the gen1 system yet, and my experience with gen2 hasnt been pleasent either.

So I need info on common fail points, fail-safes. in line fuse purpose and its servicablilty/replacement,
what the relays are for, and a wiring chart to know the purpose each wire.

anything would be appreciated!
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PFF
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Report this Post01-14-2013 03:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
google is your friend, michigan fiero club has a good pdf and there is a whole series of buddy craig utube videos, tfs has most any part, many people sell plastic or metal gears, and there are some useful sites related to similar firebird systems
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masospaghetti
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Report this Post01-14-2013 09:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for masospaghettiClick Here to Email masospaghettiSend a Private Message to masospaghettiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here is buddycraigg's excellent writeup on rebuilding a gen 1 motor:

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/068488.html

There was a thread with a great explanation of how the electrical side of the system works but I can't find it at the moment. How the relays interact with each other is certainly not intuitive, although its pretty cool how it works.
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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post01-14-2013 07:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by masospaghetti:

There was a thread with a great explanation of how the electrical side of the system works but I can't find it at the moment. How the relays interact with each other is certainly not intuitive, although its pretty cool how it works.


I'm pretty sure that's the Michigan Fiero club pdf.

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Rsvl-Rider
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Report this Post06-05-2015 07:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rsvl-RiderSend a Private Message to Rsvl-RiderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm reviving this old thread to ask about a problem with the rebuild I just finished on a Gen 1 headlight motor. I viewed the Buddy Craigg videos that are referenced here and also this archived "how to" thread.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...130314-2-068488.html

My rebuild was done using a kit (minus the gear) from the Fiero Store. Everything went well and I installed the motor back in the car. The headlight went up fine but did not go down completely. I tried it several times and the rebuilt motor always stops an inch or two short of fully closed. After a few moments the motor then seems to reset because the knob spins for a second or two and then stops again. This repeated until I unplugged it. On the plus side, the reason I rebuilt the motor seems to be resolved. The issue was that at a certain point in the closing motion something slipped in the motor and the spring force of the headlight door assembly slammed the door shut. I think that has been resolved with the newly installed bumpers inside the shaft gear. The old ones had been reduced to sand.

I am wondering if the linkage arm to gear shaft position matters to the set up. I could find no reference that gave direction as to what direction the arm might need to face in order to work correctly. When I did my 1988 Gen 2 motor it didn't matter at what point in it's rotation I left the shaft/arm. It worked correctly immediately upon installation back into the car.

[This message has been edited by Rsvl-Rider (edited 06-05-2015).]

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fierofool
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Report this Post06-06-2015 12:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The arm that bolts onto the motor shaft can go on in either direction. A common area of incorrect assembly is the triangular piece that mounts onto that arm. It can cause partial movement of the headlight assembly. You'll need to remove the whole assembly and using a ball point pin or philllips screwdriver, inserted into the dimples in the knob, rotate it to raise and lower the headlight. Notice that triangular piece to see if it comes into contact with the rubber bumpers that are mounted on the assembly frame. While you have everything out, also check to be sure the D shaped weather seal isn't visible underneath the knob. It frequently will be left between the top of the case and the knob. The motor won't shut off and will continue to tick.

You're correct in your assumption that the missing bump stops were the cause of the slamming.
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post06-06-2015 10:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AL87:

Im getting ready to rebuild quite a few sets for customers locally here.
Im seeking knowledge on common problems, how the gen 1 electrical systems are supposed to work, and any troubleshooting.

I haven't dealt with the gen1 system yet, and my experience with gen2 hasnt been pleasent either.

So I need info on common fail points, fail-safes. in line fuse purpose and its servicablilty/replacement,
what the relays are for, and a wiring chart to know the purpose each wire.

anything would be appreciated!


If you have had trouble rebuilding the Gen 2 headlight motors, the Gen 1's are a totally different ballgame. With the Gen 2s you just remove the cover plate screws, take off the arm, cover plate, pull out the gear,replace the rollers and put it back together. Its a 30 minute job. The Gen 1 motors are far more complex and difficult to rebuild. You must drill out the rivets to take the motor apart, all internal parts must be cleaned, re-greased, repaired/replaced/adjusted and the motor re-assembled in the exact same order as it was disassembled. There is too much there to explain in a few sentences. The Buddy Craig You Tube videos explain the process in excellent detail. Good luck and allow a few hours to get the job done.

------------------
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[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 06-06-2015).]

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weloveour86se
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Report this Post06-06-2015 11:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for weloveour86seSend a Private Message to weloveour86seEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Find some GM part #10022620 relays.
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Rsvl-Rider
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Report this Post06-07-2015 06:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rsvl-RiderSend a Private Message to Rsvl-RiderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:

The arm that bolts onto the motor shaft can go on in either direction. A common area of incorrect assembly is the triangular piece that mounts onto that arm. It can cause partial movement of the headlight assembly. You'll need to remove the whole assembly and using a ball point pin or philllips screwdriver, inserted into the dimples in the knob, rotate it to raise and lower the headlight. Notice that triangular piece to see if it comes into contact with the rubber bumpers that are mounted on the assembly frame. While you have everything out, also check to be sure the D shaped weather seal isn't visible underneath the knob. It frequently will be left between the top of the case and the knob. The motor won't shut off and will continue to tick.

You're correct in your assumption that the missing bump stops were the cause of the slamming.


Thanks fierofool. The arm was in the wrong position. (The d shape seal is ok)

So now it opens and closes fully. BUT......

Now I have a new problem!

The headlight motor that I rebuilt now goes up on a delay compared to the other. And when it is down it gives off a faint metallic "tink" sound about every six seconds. This is accompanied by a very slight twitch of the knob. This continues until I unplug the relay. Oddly enough the delay in the actuation of the rebuilt motor seems linked to the six second cycle on the "tink" sound. If I turn on the lights the rebuilt motor will not go up until it reaches the end of the 6 second cycle that it was in before I turned on the lights.

Is this now a new problem with the relay that I caused with the improper installation of the arm, or in the rebuild of the motor? I wanted to swap relays between sides but I couldn't get the second connector to come free (yes, I pressed the release latch) and I don't want to force it yet.

So do I need a new relay like weloveour86se suggested?

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fierofool
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Report this Post06-07-2015 09:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When I rebuild a motor, I don't index anything. The shaft is taken out, drive plate removed from it, everything cleaned up, gear and bumpstops replaced then reattach the drive plate. With all that handling, the motor shaft has a 50/50 chance of getting the short arm put back on in the same position. It needs to be downward toward either the 5 or 7 o'clock position, depending upon which side the motor is for, so it will pass back through the opening in the mechanism. Then you attach the triangular piece to the pin on the arm. I've rebuilt dozens without ever a thought about indexing that arm to the motor shaft.

Some of the bump stops that came with gears of the past were too soft and would allow the motor to tick because they would collapse under pressure, allowing the points to make contact again. I've actually removed bumpstops supplied with plastic gears only to find them almost flat. I don't know if that vendor is still using the same material, or not. When the points close again, the motor is still trying to move downward. The thermal breaker (small glass bulb) overheats and interrupts the circuit. When it cools, it makes the circuit again and you get the tick/twitch. It isn't the relay that's the problem. You may have broken one of the brushes off the limiter switch when you installed it. The brass spring arm can make enough contact to make the motor run but it can't develop enough torque to open the points when it locks up at the end of travel.

For that reason, I did some R&D and found an alternate material that has solved the ticking problem. Since I'm not really selling them any more, if you want to tear your motor apart again, I'll send you a set for you to evaluate and comment on.

I guess I'll have to do a How-To with pictures on rebuilding Generation 1 motors. Buddy Craigg's videos are great, but there's no way to rebuild a motor at the same speed of the video. At least with pictures, you can sit and look at them until the next step. Of course, since I offer a rebuild service, some proprietary tooling used to attach the drive plate to the shaft will have to be omitted.
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Rsvl-Rider
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Report this Post06-07-2015 11:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rsvl-RiderSend a Private Message to Rsvl-RiderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:

When I rebuild a motor, I don't index anything. The shaft is taken out, drive plate removed from it, everything cleaned up, gear and bumpstops replaced then reattach the drive plate. With all that handling, the motor shaft has a 50/50 chance of getting the short arm put back on in the same position. It needs to be downward toward either the 5 or 7 o'clock position, depending upon which side the motor is for, so it will pass back through the opening in the mechanism. Then you attach the triangular piece to the pin on the arm. I've rebuilt dozens without ever a thought about indexing that arm to the motor shaft.

Some of the bump stops that came with gears of the past were too soft and would allow the motor to tick because they would collapse under pressure, allowing the points to make contact again. I've actually removed bumpstops supplied with plastic gears only to find them almost flat. I don't know if that vendor is still using the same material, or not. When the points close again, the motor is still trying to move downward. The thermal breaker (small glass bulb) overheats and interrupts the circuit. When it cools, it makes the circuit again and you get the tick/twitch. It isn't the relay that's the problem. You may have broken one of the brushes off the limiter switch when you installed it. The brass spring arm can make enough contact to make the motor run but it can't develop enough torque to open the points when it locks up at the end of travel.

For that reason, I did some R&D and found an alternate material that has solved the ticking problem. Since I'm not really selling them any more, if you want to tear your motor apart again, I'll send you a set for you to evaluate and comment on.

I guess I'll have to do a How-To with pictures on rebuilding Generation 1 motors. Buddy Craigg's videos are great, but there's no way to rebuild a motor at the same speed of the video. At least with pictures, you can sit and look at them until the next step. Of course, since I offer a rebuild service, some proprietary tooling used to attach the drive plate to the shaft will have to be omitted.


And I thought this was one of the easier issues I have with the car....

These bumpstops are brand new form the Fiero Store.

I'll get it out of the car again and have a look at the limit switch first. Then maybe I'll take you up on that kind offer.

Thanks

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fierofool
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Report this Post06-08-2015 08:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just peek inside to see if the brushes are still intact. Taking them out and in can snag them on the armature and pull them loose, so if they're still attched to the spring arms, just leave the limiter switch in place. I'll see if I can get a pic of the mechanism position for your reference.

The Fiero headlights aren't truly designed to be synchronized. They are independent of one another and depending upon headlight door resistance or drag in their mechanism, one may be faster than the other. I think the delay you are seeing is due to the point set is closed, still putting power to the motor. As soon as the thermal breaker opens, it allows the opposite point set to close and the motor begins to move.
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Report this Post06-08-2015 03:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Rsvl-Rider, if your email address is up to date, you have an email.

[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 06-08-2015).]

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Rsvl-Rider
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Report this Post06-12-2015 01:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rsvl-RiderSend a Private Message to Rsvl-RiderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:

Rsvl-Rider, if your email address is up to date, you have an email.



I wondered where that came from. Thanks.

I think I got my limit switch problem resolved too but haven't put it back in to test it yet. Looks like I got the brass bearing in the wrong cavity and it prevented the armature from moving properly.

I'll let you know when I confirm it.

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Rsvl-Rider
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Report this Post06-13-2015 09:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rsvl-RiderSend a Private Message to Rsvl-RiderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
SUCCESS!

Thanks to all for your help.

Points to you fierofool !
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fierofool
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Report this Post06-14-2015 07:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Was it the brass bearing or something else?
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Rsvl-Rider
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Report this Post06-14-2015 11:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rsvl-RiderSend a Private Message to Rsvl-RiderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:

Was it the brass bearing?


Yep. The upper one by the knob was fine, but the second one I had inserted into the cavity in the housing right next to the correct one. It fit right in there and reassembled fine so I didn't notice it until I had to take it apart again.

Thanks again for your help fierofool.

[This message has been edited by Rsvl-Rider (edited 06-15-2015).]

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