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Possible water pump failing by Pearlmr2
Started on: 12-10-2012 05:17 PM
Replies: 13 (375 views)
Last post by: 85 SE VIN 9 on 01-05-2014 10:35 AM
Pearlmr2
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Report this Post12-10-2012 05:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Pearlmr2Click Here to Email Pearlmr2Send a Private Message to Pearlmr2Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have a l loud bearing like noise coming from water pump area. I also have Rodney's idler pulley, when you accelerate the sound stops. Any suggestion to determine the problem. It definitely sounds worse than the belt slipping.
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Report this Post12-10-2012 05:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Unhook the belt and spin each pully by hand. One of them will be a little bumpy. Check for extra play in the shaft on the water pump. It could be moving in and out.

[This message has been edited by Gall757 (edited 12-10-2012).]

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Report this Post12-11-2012 11:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Usually waterpump failure is only when they make noise or leak water at the weep hole under the bottom of the shaft. The only other waterpump problems Ive seen on Fiero was replacement pumps that used nylon impellers. They get old and hot and spin on the shaft making them about worthless. Whether you ever get new GM or aftermarket ones, make sure you have a metal impeller.
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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post12-24-2013 10:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Question: How did this turn out? Was it the waterpump?

About a month ago I finally got my harmonic balancer replaced and the a/c belt reinstalled. About a week ago there was a slight noise at low speeds. A couple days ago this noise had become very loud at all speeds. Definitely varies with rpm. I took the car to PepBoys where the service manager listened to the waterpump in the parking lot and concluded that was it. Came back the next day for the pump (very good price, Bosch, btw). In between I had to drive seventy miles to work and back. It sounded like it wouldn't make it. So what I did was loosen the most accessible bolt on the alternator, the only one you can see from the engine bay. The theory was the belts were overtightened, loosening them might at least buy time. I figured just loosening the alternator bolt a little would allow the alternator to move ever so slightly, thus reducing the tension on the belt. Ten or fifteen minutes into the trip, on the highway, the sound paused for a second or so after a mild bounce. A couple other pauses, maybe. On the way home, however, shortly after getting up to speed, there were more and more pauses. By maybe ten miles into the trip there was little or no sound. When I slowed down the sound returned, but the same thing seems to be happening at lower speeds.

Having the rare day off when the overtightening culprits are probably open do you think I should waste time trying to get them to replace the pump, or should I believe that my improvised solution will be adequate? So far there has been no noticeable change in function with or without the sound. The coolant level and temperature are fine, the oil level and pressure ditto, the volts remain high (16V @ 60mph), and the car drives just fine, no loss of power, no extra vibration. There are lots of repairs put off for these two days and I don't want to argue or spend more money on Christmas Eve. Should I stay or should I go?
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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post12-25-2013 02:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I decided the answer was pretty easy given the outside temperature in the single digits. I stayed home.

I did do some searching. When they replaced the belts they broke the end of the alternator bracket and installed a patch. This is another reason to leave it alone. I see Rodney Dickman has a reinforcement product, but it might be too late for that. Dodgerunner has a stronger bracket and nice idler pulley, but that's certainly not something I could install today. Rodney's power pulley set would be nice but that doesn't address the alternator bracket issue. I guess eventually I'll try to get both the bracket and power pulley set.

Hopefully the alternator will continue to move ever so slightly, the noise will go away, and I can retighten the bolt. I'm hoping the noise is the waterpump bearings, but that they're under stress, not damaged beyond use.
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Report this Post12-25-2013 09:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
belt
see http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/108775.html and my Cave, Serpent Belt

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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post12-25-2013 10:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So you're saying it's not waterpump, just belt? The belt (and the waterpump for that matter) look new in this car I've had just one year. The waterpump is/was shiny with new looking hoses and clamps. The waterpump belt has clean white lettering, the a/c compressor belt is new as of October 4 this year. I plan to go out in about an hour to find gas and see if my theory works.
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theogre
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Report this Post12-25-2013 11:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
could be WP etc bearings too. If belt is too tight/loose then belt can wear and too tight can kill bearings on alt, AP, AC, etc.

Pulley out of alignment can eat belts too.
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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post12-25-2013 07:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

could be WP etc bearings too. If belt is too tight/loose then belt can wear and too tight can kill bearings on alt, AP, AC, etc.

Pulley out of alignment can eat belts too.


The out of alignment part seems likely because they did a crude patch when they broke the alternator bracket. I'm leaning toward Dodgerunner's bracket and Rodney's pulleys and see if I can get them put on for reasonable or less.

Today the sound continued to recede, at lower and lower rpm's, but even when it's "quiet" there's enough noise to worry. This has to survive almost seventy miles a day for four more months.

Is Dodgerunner still making his brackets? How long do you think it would take to get one? How about alternatives? Maybe I could get a regular bracket and one of Rodney's reinforcements.
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Dodgerunner
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Report this Post12-27-2013 11:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DodgerunnerClick Here to visit Dodgerunner's HomePageClick Here to Email DodgerunnerSend a Private Message to DodgerunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I had a bad noise in that area also that went on for several months. Thought it was my tensioner pulley, Alt, dirt in the belt. Did turn out to be the WP bearings even though it did not leak and went on for several months until got bad enough that I finally could feel it with the belt off.
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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post12-28-2013 05:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dodgerunner:

I had a bad noise in that area also that went on for several months. Thought it was my tensioner pulley, Alt, dirt in the belt. Did turn out to be the WP bearings even though it did not leak and went on for several months until got bad enough that I finally could feel it with the belt off.


Kinda like the "several months" part. By then I might have a proper garage to do the work in. Had to run around all over the place this afternoon to get gaskets (bought the two they had at the second Zone JIC, and after all I have two of these things now). Also got RTV that is supposed to be 'sensor safe' (silicone kills O2 sensors). I plan to use a spreader/clamp to hold the timing cover in place when removing the last bolts. Read somewhere that's something to watch out for. Tried to get PepBoys to do it, but as usual, they didn't "have anyone who knows how to do that." Upon further inquiry it turns out the problem is the "small spaces." I've kinda given up on taking it back to the people who presumably caused the problem when they installed the harmonic balancer. I'm assuming they got the belt too tight. They also broke the alternator bracket and used a hammer to remove and install the balancer. Hell, I have a balancer puller.

I looked online for those, TFS has an oversized one that may require grinding to fit disc fan alternators, and there are a couple others that claim to fit although they look nothing like the genuine article.

It would be best if I could wait and get at least Rodney's idler pulley, but I have a day off tomorrow and two more next week. It could be quite awhile before that happens again. The noise is awful at certain speeds. It would also be a shame to discover it was not the water pump after something else fails.

I have corks and rubber plugs I plan to use to minimize spillage, in fact I'm going right now to get one for the small pipe that attaches to the pump. I also need to replace the connection between the driver's side pipes. Does anyone know what size hose that would be?

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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post12-28-2013 08:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bosch from PepBoys included a gasket with the water pump, only it's twisted and weakened in spots by mishandling by nitwits such as myself.

Here's a thought that came to me on the way to the hardware store: Maybe my alternator is overcharging because the pulley is too small. Q: Why pulley too small? A: A PO put it on due to inadequate charging? Or - it came with the (wrong) alternator? Could this explain why the alternator overcharges at high rpm's and undercharges at low rpms? In other words the alternator doesn't put out enough amps?

In the same vein I discovered at O'Reilly's that the (coolant) pipe to pipe hose is longer and has a bend. This is for the left rear coolant pipes. On the GT this connection is handled with a short piece of straight hose and an astonishing number of clamps. The other end of the second pipe has a flex hose that doesn't quite reach. All of these connections have chronic leaks. This also could explain a lot. I couldn't figure out where the back hoses went. The pipe to pipe hose is not included in the TFS kit.

Is it recommended to use both the gasket and RTV?

Anyone have pictures, part numbers, descriptions of installed GT/SE driver's side hoses? Or I suppose I could just go out and take some pictures of the SE. I guess I'll do that...

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Dodgerunner
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Report this Post12-29-2013 08:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DodgerunnerClick Here to visit Dodgerunner's HomePageClick Here to Email DodgerunnerSend a Private Message to DodgerunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you have some, I always clean the gasket surfaces with lacquer thinner. Makes the RTV stick really well.
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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post01-05-2014 10:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
lacquer thinner Check. Will see about getting some. Did get RTV gold, supposedly sensor safe, although it still says "silicone." It turns out Bosch included a gasket in the box, although it was kind of torn up when I discovered it. They include a lot with this pump: besides the pump itself there is the connection pipe, the little bracket to hold the timing cover in place, two sets of instructions, and the gasket.

The noise may still be getting better, even though I crawled underneath and loosened the bracket bolt and moved the alternator very slightly to the point that the belt feels pretty loose to me. It still charges and cools just fine, but the noise remains, especially just below 1500 rpm now. Above that number it gets much better.

This morning I ordered a new, stronger bracket from TFS. They say "some grinding" may be required to fit the disc type alternator fan that I have. I'm hoping the problem might actually be the bracket since this is the part that's actually broken, it should be easier to replace than the pump, and needs to be upgraded anyway. I wonder if the break or patch may be causing a slight change in alignment that causes the noise.

[This message has been edited by 85 SE VIN 9 (edited 01-05-2014).]

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