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spec 3+ clutch for 3800sc f23 swap? What do you think? by BlownFiero86
Started on: 08-24-2012 02:12 AM
Replies: 31 (2116 views)
Last post by: unboundmo on 04-06-2015 12:53 PM
BlownFiero86
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Report this Post08-24-2012 02:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlownFiero86Send a Private Message to BlownFiero86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
About to do an f23 swap and wanting to upgrade my clutch (because ebay six puck slips with avaible power, go figure). I am looking at using a spec 3 plus, but wanted to see if anyone has had goo, bad, or indifferent experiences with them. I will be using the car for everyday driving and trashing it on take offs to out run mustangs, camaros, etc. LOL. I want something that isn't to hard to drive in traffic but will stand up to the power off my build 3800sc. Your info would be appreciated, Ben

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86GT, 3800SC, GETRAG, true duals, 3.4 pulley, comp VS cam, zzp match flow injectors, zzp power log, WCF air intake, ARP bolts, comp lifters and push rods, 90# springs, SI stainless valves, aero-force scantech meter.
Here is my build thread http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/122548.html

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Report this Post08-24-2012 02:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The stage 3 plus should hold anything the 3800sc can throw at it. Make sure you get the flywheel surfaced, clean everything with brake cleaner, use latex gloves when assembling, and follow the break in procedure.

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Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

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bmwguru
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Report this Post08-24-2012 05:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The stage 3+ is more streetable than the stage 3. I immediately noticed a difference. As Justin said, follow the break in procedure or you will be living with a chatterbox clutch.
Dave

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www.hausofguru.com

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Fierobsessed
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Report this Post08-24-2012 09:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FierobsessedClick Here to Email FierobsessedSend a Private Message to FierobsessedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Funny, I was looking into this combination the other day myself...

Any concerns among you guys about the pressure plate / F23 diff bump interference issue?

I read somewhere here that the high clamp load PP clears the F23 diff better then the standard one, or get the PP for the 2200 Cavalier motor, which makes perfect sense. But costs more.
Cavalier 2200 3+: SC863F - $679.00
Fiero 282 3+: SC883F - $465.00

But Note that the Cavalier comes with the HTOB, they say that you can get it without for a $99 credit. Still a bunch more money even without.
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Report this Post08-24-2012 10:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think you need to order the one for the fiero 4 speed. If you order from spec you might get a credit for the throwout bearing you don't need and make sure its NOT this plate. (this should be the getrage 5spd one)

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Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

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Report this Post08-24-2012 11:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FierobsessedClick Here to Email FierobsessedSend a Private Message to FierobsessedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Justinbart:

I think



Seems like few are sure what DOES work. I remember that you had some issues with your PP scraping and even breaking through the case a little.

At least with the Cavy clutch, it's designed specifically for that transmission. And probably meant for the .840 Flywheel height.
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Report this Post08-24-2012 11:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierobsessed:


Seems like few are sure what DOES work. I remember that you had some issues with your PP scraping and even breaking through the case a little.

At least with the Cavy clutch, it's designed specifically for that transmission. And probably meant for the .840 Flywheel height.


Does it bolt to the 3800 flywheel? What size is the disk for the cavy? There are 3 pressure plate designs that SPEC uses for the fiero. The other two will work. It depends on what one they decide to send you.

The plate won't actually go all the way through the diff housing. I just got a little carried away with the grinder and fluid seeped through. I put some cold weld on the inside and outside and no leaks so far. It was a clutch I was already using carried over from the fiero getrage 282. Of course I would have sent it back and got the correct one if it was a new build.

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Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 08-24-2012).]

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BlownFiero86
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Report this Post08-25-2012 05:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlownFiero86Send a Private Message to BlownFiero86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Can anyone tell me a definite yes on which one will work whether it be the 4 speed or the cavy. Thanks, Ben
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BV MotorSports
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Report this Post08-26-2012 01:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'd go with the cav clutch and the 3800 swap flywheel. But I think you need to use a spacer for the HTOB. Mattwa seems to know quite a bit about the subject. There is also a pretty good How To thread in GFC here. No two seem to be the same though... its kinda crazy if you think about it.

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 08-26-2012).]

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Report this Post08-26-2012 11:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports:

I'd go with the cav clutch and the 3800 swap flywheel. But I think you need to use a spacer for the HTOB. Mattwa seems to know quite a bit about the subject. There is also a pretty good How To thread in GFC here. No two seem to be the same though... its kinda crazy if you think about it.



What did you use?

Think you could use an uncut flywheel so you wouldn't need a htob spacer?
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Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 08-26-2012).]

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BlownFiero86
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Report this Post08-26-2012 11:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlownFiero86Send a Private Message to BlownFiero86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Already had the motor hooked to the origin 5 speed, so my flywheel has been machined down to work with the stock setup. Once I get the clutch and everything ready I will measure for the htob and let everyone know what I come up with.
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Report this Post08-26-2012 08:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FierobsessedClick Here to Email FierobsessedSend a Private Message to FierobsessedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
From what I gather, I cannot understand why you would need a HTOB spacer in a 3800, or any other setup other then an SBC. If the flywheel surface is the same height (.820 - .840) as the original Cavalier FW, then the Cavalier clutch model should be a direct fit.

Now, I was skimming the "Tutorial Thread" and this is what was summed up on the topic:


 
quote
Originally posted by mattwa:

I had to use the spacer because of PP fingers on the stock Getrag replacement PP are almost flush with the PP after it is installed, and I decided to use that instead of the SPEC PP because I didn't want to take a big chunk out of the inside of the case. The SPEC PP fingers stuck out a good bit farther when installed.


 
quote
Originally posted by mattwa:

I wanted to give an update on this, considering what I found out on my 3800/F23 swap, you more likely then not need a HTOB spacer for that setup, depending on what clutch you use. Same thing applies for a 2.8/3.4, except I think it's even worse in that case.


 
quote
Originally posted by D_sensitized:
Clutchnet clutch stage 2 for 88 Fiero v6 5 speed

I did have to clearance the diff housing inside the bell housing to fit the pressure plate, still hits if I press the clutch all the way in so I put a stop behind the petal, still enough to properly engage/disengage.

I did not need a spacer for the throw out bearing, measured before hand and haven't had any issues.


 
quote
Originally posted by L67:
List of known working clutches & pressure plates (engine installed on):
SPEC Stage 3+, and Superclamp flywheel (3800).
Clutchnet 6 puck sprung hub, and a 2x "red" pressure plate (SBC - .270" HTOB shim).


So, not very conclusive, but I still insist that the Cavalier clutch must work. (but does it for sure?) We also know that the pedals total travel MUST be reduced (1"?) , or the HTOB and clutch might be damaged severely in normal use. The Cavalier clutch also should bolt up to the modified 3800 flywheel too, due to the fact that GM used the same 6 bolt pattern on all FWD clutches. I know of no exceptions to that rule. Just the clutch disk and internal pressure plate sizes vary a bit.
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Report this Post08-26-2012 09:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Justinbart:


What did you use?

Think you could use an uncut flywheel so you wouldn't need a htob spacer?


I used a SPEC S3 and Dean made a flywheel. There was a problem though, I dont remember the details. Dean sorted it out.

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 08-26-2012).]

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BlownFiero86
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Report this Post08-27-2012 01:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlownFiero86Send a Private Message to BlownFiero86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks guys, very helpful. I am going to order the cavy spec 3+, and I will let you guys know what I come up with. It might be a couple of weeks but I will post back to this thread when I have more info. Thanks, Ben
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Report this Post08-27-2012 02:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroGT42Click Here to Email FieroGT42Send a Private Message to FieroGT42Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm doing the same thing so did you end up needing the HTOB spacer or not? From what I was reading it sounded like you (I) wouldn't need it.
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Report this Post08-27-2012 05:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for slidewaysSend a Private Message to slidewaysEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I recommend you get the 'high clamp PP 3800 to fiero 5sp conversion' it may be thinner. I am running f23, spec 4+, aluminum FW. The spec FW is thicker than the 3800 FW (approx .950" thick) I had no issues with the PP clearing the bell housing, so theoretically if you are using a 3800 FW you will have even more clearance. This setup did require a 'bearing cap spacer' .260"

If its a clutch disk you are after, ask about the 4+ its not listed on the site but its the same material as the 4 with a solid disk and no springs. Its a little chattery at idle but higher capacity and no springs to break!

EDIT: This is what i used '3800 to fiero 5sp conversion'

[This message has been edited by slideways (edited 08-27-2012).]

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Report this Post08-27-2012 05:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
any of you guys having any increased noise from the bearing cap spacer?

Dave
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Report this Post08-27-2012 08:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for slidewaysSend a Private Message to slidewaysEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

any of you guys having any increased noise from the bearing cap spacer?

Dave


No, its a pretty good design it snaps in place firmly over the HTOB in fact I couldn't pull it off by hand once installed. The HTOB spring keeps it rested on the PP fingers at all times so there is no friction or noise during engagement.
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Report this Post08-27-2012 08:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I never used a spacer on either of my f23s. I never tried to push the pedal thru the floor but I drove it for years, as did some of my friends, and never had a single issue.

Not saying its for everyone, just sayin worked for me.
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Report this Post08-28-2012 03:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RyanstalinClick Here to Email RyanstalinSend a Private Message to RyanstalinEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
IM not sure if I read this right. But conclusion is. when doing a 3800/f23 swap you must use the .840 camaro v6 flywheel, and you need the clutch plus Pressure plate from a cavalier, like spec 3+. but the other guy is saying that spec now offers a 3800 swap for manual cavalier packages, that comes with the clutch and pressure plate already matched for the 3800 flywheel?
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Report this Post08-28-2012 08:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for slidewaysSend a Private Message to slidewaysEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Jncomutt:

I never used a spacer on either of my f23s. I never tried to push the pedal thru the floor but I drove it for years, as did some of my friends, and never had a single issue.

Not saying its for everyone, just sayin worked for me.


Some quick details on the PP, FW you used and if you trimmed the bellhousing might be helpful to someone in the future.

I think its possible SPEC has used several different PP's over the years with different dimensions. The one I have would not have worked without a spacer, but did not interfere with the bellhousing. the SPEC high clamp PP's require 3/8" to disengage and I only had a range of .370" before over extending the HTOB so a spacer was required. SPEC recommended .4" of usable travel to accommodate clutch wear

I wasn't aware of anyone using a cavalier PP for an F23 swap, has anyone verified it will bolt to the 3800 FW? If so... wonder if a caviler FW would bolt to the 3800...
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Report this Post08-29-2012 05:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I pulled my getrag out of my 3800 yesterday to swap out the trans with another getrag. My flywheel is machined to 0.820
there was a 1/4" gouge in my transmission from the stage 3+ pressure plate hitting. I plan to call spec about this issue, but wanted to let you guys know.
Dave
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Report this Post08-29-2012 07:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for kikinz24Click Here to Email kikinz24Send a Private Message to kikinz24Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I was doin some reading. And checking around if you notice a 91 z24 with a 3.1 5 spd pressure plate is different but should work... I have a centerforce pp from a 90 cav z24 with a fwd getrag and it has a smaller housint than a pp from my 86 4 spd.. that's what I plan to use in my 86... if it would work on a machined 3800 flywheel I'm not positive but I honestly don't see why it wouldn't its exactly the same just a bit slimmer..
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Report this Post08-29-2012 08:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Slideways, I used the SPEC 3 PP and also a 3+PP. The SPEC 3 for getrag hit the F23 bell, the SPEC 3+ with High Clamp PP for getrag did NOT hit the bell. Neither used a HTOB spacer. I don't know my flywheel thickness off the top of my head.
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Report this Post08-30-2012 02:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweederSend a Private Message to TweederEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Jncomutt:

Slideways, I used the SPEC 3 PP and also a 3+PP. The SPEC 3 for getrag hit the F23 bell, the SPEC 3+ with High Clamp PP for getrag did NOT hit the bell. Neither used a HTOB spacer. I don't know my flywheel thickness off the top of my head.


Any chance on teh next time your under there, could you get a measurement?

------------------
86 GT Convertable 3800

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Report this Post08-30-2012 03:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sure, its sitting on my bench, lol.
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Report this Post08-19-2014 12:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JJJFieroClick Here to visit JJJFiero's HomePageSend a Private Message to JJJFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've got a 3800SC out of a 2000 Bonneville. I've got an F23 out of a 2001 Cav 2.2. I've got a 3800 flywheel on the way from a Camaro. I thought I understood what clutch to get to make this simple but you guys have made this even more confusing for me. SPEC 3+ for cavalier? SPEC 3+ for Fiero Getrag? which will fit, preferably without any spacers/pedal adjustment. Basically what's easiest given what I'm already working with?
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Report this Post08-19-2014 08:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hookdonspeedClick Here to visit hookdonspeed's HomePageClick Here to Email hookdonspeedSend a Private Message to hookdonspeedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JJJFiero:

I've got a 3800SC out of a 2000 Bonneville. I've got an F23 out of a 2001 Cav 2.2. I've got a 3800 flywheel on the way from a Camaro. I thought I understood what clutch to get to make this simple but you guys have made this even more confusing for me. SPEC 3+ for cavalier? SPEC 3+ for Fiero Getrag? which will fit, preferably without any spacers/pedal adjustment. Basically what's easiest given what I'm already working with?


spec now offers a clutch WITH the spacer included, give them a call. they know this swap now.
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Report this Post08-20-2014 02:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mitchjl22Click Here to Email mitchjl22Send a Private Message to mitchjl22Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I didn't read through this all the way, but I just wanted to mention, MAKE SURE you neutral balance your flywheel with your old AUTO flex plate AFTER you machine it down. Failure to do so can cause vibration issues. I didn't and wish I had.

-Mitch

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My Car - 87' GT 3800sc
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/121571.html#p0

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Report this Post04-05-2015 08:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Adjustso3Click Here to Email Adjustso3Send a Private Message to Adjustso3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok guys. Here's a question for all of you because I'm new to all of this and sorry if I hyjacked this thread but thought it would kinda fit in. I'm starting my swap this summer with a 2001 3800SC from a Buick Regal and it's going into my 87GT with the 5 speed Getrag. Is there anything I can use from the Getrag like the flywheel or the spec 3+ clutch when I finally decide to put some HP to the 3800SC and need the F23 ?
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Report this Post04-06-2015 12:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for unboundmoClick Here to Email unboundmoSend a Private Message to unboundmoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm using a Clutch Master's FX350... Not sure about a break-in proceedure.?.. It chatters slight in heavy traffic but I've learned how to calm it down some.. But man does it grip. Its a 9-11/16" which was unique to the company but Its worked really well.. My swap is a 3.4L P/R but built. Eventually I want to run a super charger where the a/c goes but that's down the line a while..the reason for the FX350

http://www.clutchmasters.com/clutch-kits/
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Report this Post04-06-2015 12:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for unboundmoClick Here to Email unboundmoSend a Private Message to unboundmoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
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