had some problems a few years ago and bleed the system, that worked fine untill my stock slave broke and i needed a new one. bought a crappy aftermarket that worked up till a few months ago when i lost 1st gear altogether. just bought a RD slave and bleed according to instructions AND tried vacuum bleeding with a spare brake fluid bottle and some hoses with no luck. i have a hard peddle and full master rod travel, there is no fluid coming out of my master and my carpet is dry. my clutch peddle bushing is crap and theres slop in the peddle but i literally can bottom out my master rod in the master cyl.
Is your clutch pedal about 1 inch HIGHER than your brake pedal? If not, perhaps you are not getting full withdrawal of your master rod from the master and so would be getting less than full stroke even though it is bottoming out. Seems odd that it is bottoming out unless you have extended the banjo.
Can you pump up your clutch and get more throw from the slave? If so you still have air in your system.
Did you bleed the slave? If not you probably have air in the system.
[This message has been edited by imacflier (edited 08-04-2012).]
im getting 5/8's travel from the slave rod. i measured from the face of the slave to the face of the throw out arm. when not pressurized it reads 1 1/2 and when extended its 2 1/8 in.
my clutch peddle is 1 inch high than my brake but theres more to that that i will get into after i answer your other questions.
i cannot pump the clutch and get more throw from my banjo.
i did bench bleed the slave and bled it when it was mounted by putting a longer rod in and pushing in on the cyl with the bleeder open.
back to my peddle.
my peddle would always bottom out on my floor before it disengauged, i know i have bad bushings which ill replace and i found that out when i removed the peddle to give it more of an arc. figuring my peddle was the problem and it wasnt pushing the master cyl all the way back into the bore, i took my peddle and cut, bent and welded it so it has a bit more of a........ curve. it sets more than an inch above my brake peddle but its not uncomfortable and it stops before the floor. this is how i know its bottoming out on the master cyl.
i tried bleeding it again just now with a long 1/4 in id hose attached to the bleeder and flung over the roof into the resivoir. the only air i seemed to get out was the air in the hose -_-
figuring my peddle was the problem and it wasnt pushing the master cyl all the way back into the bore, i took my peddle and cut, bent and welded it so it has a bit more of a........ curve. it sets more than an inch above my brake peddle but its not uncomfortable and it stops before the floor. this is how i know its bottoming out on the master cyl.
Well, it's possible you've totally screwed up the pedal doing what you did.
The image below is a picture I took a few years ago a good pedal and a bad one. Notice where the bend occurs.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-05-2012).]
ya it wasnt bent when i took it out and its still not bent i just brought the peddle forward more from about halfway down. that and i was having this problem before i did that and i was hoping that it would solve the problem to which it did not.
Check and see if you have any bend in the MC rod. I had that originally and it prevents a good full stroke. I straightened mine in my press and got over that. Now I have a new MC.
ya it wasnt bent when i took it out and its still not bent i just brought the peddle forward more from about halfway down. that and i was having this problem before i did that and i was hoping that it would solve the problem to which it did not.
Something doesn't make sense here. If your clutch pedal wasn't bent, and if your banjo wasn't bent, then there's no reason why your clutch pedal shouldn't have been sitting above your brake pedal (without you altering the clutch pedal).
I wonder if there's any chance that you have an improper (shorter) banjo installed.
humm i dunno.... i replaced it once alrady because it was bent. my roomate bent it when i was trying to bleed it but i replaced it with a spare gen 2 master one i had sitting around. and it was sitting above the brake before i altered the pedal. i only altered it because when i dpressed the clutch all the way it was hitting the floor so i figured it wasnt hitting the end of the master cyl.
In theory, it would be possible to have a MC rod too long, meaning you would be partway into the stroke before touching the pedal. This would give you only a partial stroke. You can back off the bolts holding the master cylinder to the firewall and see if it tries to back out any, and will only take a minute to do. Or, you can take the rod loose at the pedal and see if it wants to return higher. Not likely but we are fishing. I mention this because there are two types of masters that I know of, I don't know the difference in their applications, and maybe you have the wrong one?
[This message has been edited by weaselbeak (edited 08-05-2012).]
well i have an 86 gt with the 5 speed and a gen 2 so i will go an try to back off the bolts as i think taking the rod off the peddle would be harder to tell as the peddle would be free. ill report back in a few minutes
ya its all the way back up above the brake pedal. i have a spare gen 1 master that ill try tomorrow after work and see if that matters. does anyone know what masters work with what slaves and what transmissions?
Well, since you already have the RD slave, all I see are 2 possibilities. Bleeding, tho I doubt that, and the master cylinder isn't up to snuff. That's my bet.
The Slave cylinder in the Fiero is a real piece of work, it will cause you to pull your hair out sometimes. I have had four Fieros, two with manual trans. I tried normal bleeding procedures and vacuum bleeding to no avail. I found that if you force the slave piston ALL THE WAY into the slave cyl and bleed slowly, you will get a good disengagement. The service manuals don't tell you this, but it has worked for me. What is happening is that there is air trapped inside the slave cyl that won't escape through the bleeder. Forcing the piston all the way in gets rid of that air. I used a 2" wooded dowel to pry the clutch release arm back, thus forcing the piston all the way into the cyl.
I used a 2" wooded dowel to pry the clutch release arm back, thus forcing the piston all the way into the cyl.
I agree with your assesment about air in the slave, but I don't quite agree with how you dealt with it. I don't know if it's a good idea to "pry the clutch release arm back" the way you did.
I attach vice-grips to the rod protruding from the slave, and using my hands, push the piston all the way into the slave. I then hold it there with a small wooden wedge while I pressure-bleed the system. Works fantastic. I've tried many different methods over the years with several Fieros. By far, this is the best.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-08-2012).]
What is happening is that there is air trapped inside the slave cyl that won't escape through the bleeder. .
Many times jacking up the drivers side of the car insures that any air moves towards the bleeder in the slave. Many times someone is sitting in the drivers seat thus making the bleeder end of the slave cylinder lower than the passenger side thus trapping air.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
i had a stock cast slave on t hat went out a few years ago and then replaced it with an autozone isuzu slave which just got replaced with a RD slave. i also did jack up ther rear end when bleeding. i am thinking that either my clutch is indeed going bad (i have 180k on the car and i have no idea when the clutch was changed) or my master check valve in the resivoir is blown. so ill be ordering my RD master.....soon probably next week and see if that works. i was gonna replace it with a gen 1 master but realized that one was bad as well.
If you reach the end of the travel of the slave cylinder, it will feel just like the MC bottomed out.
Is the slave pushrod pushing the slave piston at least 1 1/4"? If not I would highly suspect the slave is what is stopping the travel. You could also check this by cracking the bleeder and seeing if you can then push the pedal to the floor.
i am thinking that either my clutch is indeed going bad (i have 180k on the car and i have no idea when the clutch was changed) or my master check valve in the resivoir is blown. so ill be ordering my RD master.....
As was being discussed in This thread, there's a big difference in symptoms between a clutch "going bad" (wearing out) and clutch hydraulics not working right.
installed my RD master and DAMN!!!!!!! that thing is awesome! i have a good full inch of travel now on my RD slave. i think i need to bleed it a bit more and im replacing my front springs with the stock ones so i cant test drive it yet. but DAMN! RD you the man!!!!!!!
well it just went out again. so i dunno whats wrong with this thing. i have full fluid and iwas driving like normal and boom lost 1st then itried to bleed it and lost every gear.
oh and im stuck at school... good thing is school is an automotive and diesel bay so hopefully i can finger it out here lol
[This message has been edited by Niterrorz (edited 10-16-2012).]
Are you using an Isuzu slave? If so, you should be using a 5 5/8 slave pushrod. I noted that in your earlier posts you said you bled it by using a longer pushrod. If you're using a short one, you may have bottomed out the slave and blown something.
I've never checked the bores but I believe the Getrag slave has a larger diameter bore since the length of the slave is shorter. That should require a larger bore on the master as well. If you're using a large bore master and a smaller bore Isuzu slave, you're putting too much fluid/pressure into the slave. Rodney should be able to clarify that if I'm wrong.
i got rodney dickman all around lol master and slave for the getrag. i bled the crap outta it tonight and its enough to get me home. im going to go through the whole clutch system this winter and replace the line. i wish i could get one long flex line because i dont want to have to drop the front end but im doing a stainless line so this will never be an issue (hopefully) again.
