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3800 sc hard to shift getrag by lemon87
Started on: 05-29-2012 08:12 PM
Replies: 23 (811 views)
Last post by: FIEROFLYER on 04-01-2014 09:11 AM
lemon87
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Report this Post05-29-2012 08:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lemon87Send a Private Message to lemon87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hey this is my first post

I have a 87 fiero that I did a 3.8 sc swap with a new bully clutch and a rebuilt getrag. I got it running just over a year ago and have been driving it on and off since and have had nothing but problems. I have trouble shifting to first, from first to second, to fifth and it grinds going into reverse. Also if I try to down shift at high rpm it grinds. I've tried bleeding the lines and checked to see the travel and its about 1" at the slave. I tried rodney's master and slave clutch cylinder since what I have read they have good result for people, it helped but it did not fix my problem. The shifter is fully moving the selectors to the max positions on the tranny. I have syncromax royal purple for fluid. There is also a rattle or nock coming from the tranny and goes away when I push in the clutch, no one has an answer for this and I want it gone. please help

Another issue of a list of many is, when I down shift from second it stalls when I come to a stop after I push in the clutch.

[This message has been edited by lemon87 (edited 05-29-2012).]

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Gall757
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Report this Post05-29-2012 08:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Welcome to the Forum! We may be able to fix a lot of things, but probably not the Getrag rattle.
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Mike Gonzalez
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Report this Post05-29-2012 10:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mike GonzalezClick Here to Email Mike GonzalezSend a Private Message to Mike GonzalezEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sounds like there is still air in the system, or your not getting enough travel. Should be a little more then an inch, possible you pedal is bent, have you tried an adjustable banjo ? The rattle is common, just the throwout bearing rattling untill you prees it up against the pressure plate. The stalling sounds like your VSS was not run to your PCM, or your PCM wasnt programmed for a manual trans.
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84se2m4
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Report this Post05-30-2012 12:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84se2m4Click Here to Email 84se2m4Send a Private Message to 84se2m4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
im having the same symptoms as you man, although mine is a 4spd muncie, I intend to buy the steel clutch pedal and banjo. Maybe readjust the shift and select some more
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jaybug56
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Report this Post05-30-2012 04:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaybug56Click Here to Email jaybug56Send a Private Message to jaybug56Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I had the same "shifting" issues when I first got my 86 GT with 213k miles. All of my problems went away after my clutch broke. I dropped the cradle and and when I got into the clutch system it all made sense. Almost all of the pressure plate fingers were worn away. The throw-out bearing would almost slip inside the resulting hole without actuating the entire pressure plate. No wonder I was grinding gears. After I got everything back together things still weren't working right. The slave wasn't moving far enough. Tried to bleed it but that didn't do anything. By this time I was pretty frustrated and pissed off. When I took off the boot on the slave cylinder it was full of fluid. Time for a new slave cylinder. After changing the slave and bleeding the system as described on Archie's web site everything has been perfect. I learned alot that week.
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lemon87
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Report this Post05-30-2012 05:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lemon87Send a Private Message to lemon87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Mike Gonzalez:

Sounds like there is still air in the system, or your not getting enough travel. Should be a little more then an inch, possible you pedal is bent, have you tried an adjustable banjo ? The rattle is common, just the throwout bearing rattling untill you prees it up against the pressure plate. The stalling sounds like your VSS was not run to your PCM, or your PCM wasnt programmed for a manual trans.


Hey thanks for the replies, I just put in rodneys slave and master cylinder with the adjustable banjo and set it so that I would have the most stroke. I didn't measure how far the slave was moving after that, but I know its moving farther. I bled the system with a vacuum pump, so I know there is no air. I checked the pedal to see if its bent, its not. The clutch is brand new and its been doing this from the start. I can't adjust the shift cables because they are moving the selectors to the full travel (had someone shift for me while I checked them) I indicated the flywheel and it has .004 runout, would that be enough to drag on the clutch disc? Any other ideas?

The rattle in the trans sucks, I've read alot about it and no one knows a fix, even with so many people with the same problem?

The stalling. What does the vss look like, I am more of a visual learner. How do I check to see if it was wired in properly or if its programmed properly? I was intimidated by them so I didn't do either, I figured I would let someone who knew what they were doing to it do for me. But with all my issues I am having I regret it. I need help with this car I can do the work but I can't diagnose very well. This project has been 5 years in the making and I still can't go for cruse further then 20 km without an issue.

P.S. I didn't put in the clutch either.

[This message has been edited by lemon87 (edited 05-30-2012).]

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Report this Post05-30-2012 05:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TweeterSend a Private Message to TweeterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lemon87:

The stalling. What does the vss look like, I am more of a visual learner. How do I check to see if it was wired in properly or if its programmed properly?


Borrow a OBD2 scanner that has a read out gauges/sensors . if the VSS is programmed right the computer will show the correct speed. well atleast my 3800 w/ getrag does

EDIT: Assumed it was a OBD2 PCM

[This message has been edited by Tweeter (edited 05-30-2012).]

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Mike Gonzalez
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Report this Post05-30-2012 06:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mike GonzalezClick Here to Email Mike GonzalezSend a Private Message to Mike GonzalezEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Even when bleeding with a vacuum bleeder you must push the slave rod all the way in while bleeding to get that last bit of air out.

The VSS is your speed sensor on the top of the output shaft on the trans with yellow and purple wires. When people do a manual trans swap since its the Fiero VSS and will run the speedo they dont bother to also run it to the PCM. The PCM needs the VSS signal to keep from stalling out when you press the clutch. to check if its connected if your running a 98-02 PCM program make sure C1 has wires in 64 and 65, if they are there you can check continuity all the way to the VSS sender.
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lemon87
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Report this Post05-30-2012 08:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lemon87Send a Private Message to lemon87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
OK I will check the wires on the pcm, its out of a 98 gtp. and try out the OBD2 scanner. I will also check to see what the stroke is on the slave and check for air in the lines. Any other I ideas on my shifting issues if its not air or the stoke.
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lemon87
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Report this Post05-30-2012 09:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lemon87Send a Private Message to lemon87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
OK I will check the wires on the pcm, its out of a 98 gtp. and try out the OBD2 scanner. I will also check to see what the stroke is on the slave and check for air in the lines. Any other I ideas on my shifting issues if its not air or the stoke.
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Mike Gonzalez
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Report this Post05-30-2012 10:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mike GonzalezClick Here to Email Mike GonzalezSend a Private Message to Mike GonzalezEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Only other things I can think of unless its a clutch/PP issue is the slave bracket flexing, or the fork shaft binding, Could try squirting somel ight lube into the upper shaft bushing, not Wd-40, it will get sticky.
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Report this Post05-30-2012 11:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 toySend a Private Message to 86 toyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
One other thing no one has mentioned is that maybe your flywheel was not cut to the proper thickness. If it was cut to much it would cause the clutch to not fully disengage causing the shifting problems and grinding. Does your clutch catch right off the floor?

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87 GT 3400 swap project

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lemon87
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Report this Post06-01-2012 04:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lemon87Send a Private Message to lemon87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I went out last night to check the wires and they do go into the pcm. I then check for continuity and its good. My obd2 scanner is not capable of reading a signal, its a cheep one. I also check to see how far my slave is traveling and its about a 1 1/4" now. Ill check the flywheel when I take out the engine to fix an oil leak on the front and back of the block. When I got my mechanic to put on the supercharger he left the tape I had put on all the ports to keep dirt and dust out of it. The closed ports built up too much pressure in the engine causing my oil leak. Anything I should look for in the clutch area when I have it out?
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lemon87
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Report this Post07-28-2012 03:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lemon87Send a Private Message to lemon87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I finally had a chance to drop the engine and split the tranny from the engine last week. I found that the clutch housing has been chewing away at the tranny case. What would be the best way to resolve this issue?
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Report this Post07-28-2012 04:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FIEROFLYERSend a Private Message to FIEROFLYEREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you need another getrag 5 speed I have a fully rebuilt one from a 90's W body FWD or go with an F23 swap and get the stronger tranny either way use a clutch that does not interfere with the tranny bell housing. Dan
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Report this Post07-28-2012 07:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kikinz24Click Here to Email kikinz24Send a Private Message to kikinz24Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Did you have the flywheel milled down To spec? Sounds to me like its just too thick
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lemon87
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Report this Post07-28-2012 11:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lemon87Send a Private Message to lemon87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The tranny is fine, just some deep grooves. I don't want to have to buy a new clutch either. thanks tho

It was a custom made aluminum flywheel. I didn't have the flywheel made so I do not know how thick it is suppose to be. How thick should it be?

Also it is a bully clutch.

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Brianb
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Report this Post07-28-2012 11:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BrianbClick Here to Email BrianbSend a Private Message to BrianbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You might want to ck the clutch itself. With it bolted to the flywheel the pressure plate fingers should stick out toward the trans a few degrees. If they are flat or pushed inwards toward the disc the clutch will not fully disengage regardless of how much travel the slave has. If you are getting 1 1/4" you have plenty of slave travel. Try manually pushing the clutch arm and shifting into first. If you can shift it smoothly then its not the clutch. It may be the clutch arm flexing. Which arm do you have? Good luck Brian
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Report this Post07-29-2012 03:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieromotionClick Here to Email FieromotionSend a Private Message to FieromotionEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hei. Just like mine until replaced the clutch (which seemed to be quite new). The problems appeared when the engine was hot. I did the same bleedings and checkings and finally dropped the engine/transmission down. The clutch was not worn at all but I could see that the pressure springs had touched the clutch plate and in portion of pressure plate springs tips there were evident of touching the clutch plate, so the clutch did not release.
Installed new GM clutch kit from Rockauto and the problem was solved. I have also the knocking noise (not allways) when idling and it disappears when clutch is pressed. Believe that the previous owner replaced the clutch and got a bad one and sold the car. It was a pain in neck when the transmission jammed in heavy trafic.
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Report this Post10-24-2012 08:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for XgovernmentAgentSend a Private Message to XgovernmentAgentEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am having these same problems. I have a rebuilt Getrag, new clutch line, RD master/slave, RD shift/dialect cables, pedal and the ultimate short shift kit with a clutchnet clutch and pressure plate. I have always had difficulty shifting into 1,2 and R. My select cable may be routed incorrectly. I hit some bumps on a crappy Oklahoma road earlier and a whole mess of troubles came. it wouldn't go into gear unless the engine was off, even then it was still difficult. When I let off the throttle I hear a grinding noise.
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Report this Post10-25-2012 09:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for XgovernmentAgentSend a Private Message to XgovernmentAgentEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bump for the morning crew
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Report this Post03-31-2013 10:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hdryderClick Here to Email hdryderSend a Private Message to hdryderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
lemon87, what type of flywheel and clutch are you using with your 3800 SC and Getrag combination?

I would like to do this swap and the flywheel/clutch setup is the part I am needing to find more info about.

Thanks for the help.
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lemon87
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Report this Post03-31-2014 09:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lemon87Send a Private Message to lemon87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I know it has been awhile since I posted this and the work has been long done. Thought I would share what I ended up doing.

I had the flywheel machined down, forgot what the thickness it was but I have the number written down somewhere along with the clutch number I had gotten. I ended up getting a ram clutch.

I also had to machine counterbores in the flywheel for head clearance for the bolts after I had machined the thickness down.

checked all my clearances, put the car back together and it shifts nicely until the engine quite on me. The car is a true lemon. and the getrag rattle is still there only when it is worm.

I would post pics of the work I had done but I do not know how.
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Report this Post04-01-2014 09:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FIEROFLYERSend a Private Message to FIEROFLYEREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am only a couple hours away if you want to drop by one day I can have a look to see if I can figure out any problems you have with this car. Dan

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DARN Cars now open with
Over 30 years wiring experience between cars and trade as an avionics technician in both Canadian Air Force and civilian aviation.
Over 25 years experience building and modifying cars.
Over 10 years of full Fiero engine swaps and harnesses building and still going.

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