Kawasaki has come up with "Electra Steer" electronic power steering for their ATV's and UTV's. I wonder if some ingenious PFF member can figure a way of adapting the kit to work on Fiero's? Check out the following kit installation instructions: http://www.unisteer.com/doc/44/raw.html
------------------ Now new owner of a Black TTop 88 Fiero GT and owner of a Silver 88 Fiero GT. Also a second time owner of an 85 Fiero GT. Bought my first fully loaded Red Fiero GT new in 1985. Fiero's are Fabulous, Fix'em and have Fun! Note, Avatar picture is Mr. Bean (not me, ha ha).
Its pretty nifty but I do believe our steering linkage is a lot bigger but anything. Is adaptable. My concern would be that of the.motor being strong enough to turn the wheels at a stop due to the front of the car weighing so much more than a quad.
An electric power steering unit was developed by GM for use in the 89 Fiero but never went into production. I believe that the unit was later adapted to use on mini-vans or smaller vehicles perhaps the Saturn. As with any power steering there is a substantial weight gain which will cause a loss of performance.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Our new Sonata has EPS and for the life of me can not figure out where the fluid is at. It feels no different then traditional PS except no drain on the system when turning the wheel. Yeah i have been looking at it for modding
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**************************************** 88 Formula CJB Arrived Finally. #689 of 1252 Time to start Working TONY! There are Two kinds of Fiero's : Notchies and Donors!
An electric power steering unit was developed by GM for use in the 89 Fiero but never went into production. I believe that the unit was later adapted to use on mini-vans or smaller vehicles perhaps the Saturn. As with any power steering there is a substantial weight gain which will cause a loss of performance.
I will admit that the addition of power assist will add weight, but I do not think it is a substantial mount. The 88GT was 2800# and the extra weight of assist could have been 10#. I also differ with you on the loss of power from power steering systems. First, the pump only draws power when you turn the steering wheel. How often do you "need full power AND power assist? Performance driving is not the same as the average street car so the answere is never for the street car. Even race cars will not see a problematic parasidic loss from power steering. They do not use full power AND full assist at the same time. Electric pumps draw even less power from the engine because they use the battery to run the pump as needed. Then the alt can charge up the system in a few secods or even take a minot to recharge the battery. This will see even less of a parasidic loss at the crank because it it not a "spike" of evergy taken the make 1200psi in an instant.
SO yes I agree that power steering is not "free", but it is not as parasidic as your post makes it sound.
Our new Sonata has EPS and for the life of me can not figure out where the fluid is at. It feels no different then traditional PS except no drain on the system when turning the wheel. Yeah i have been looking at it for modding
The current-generation VW Golfs (and possibly other models that I haven't driven) have all-electric power steering as well. It is light enough for me to steer with only 1 thumb, though I wouldn't recommend that for safety reasons
I like that it appears to be maintenance-free. No fluid lines to leak, no pump to fail; maybe needs to be greased every once in a while.
Just for example, the lightest Fiero was twice that weight. The tires have twice the contact patch. Will that system work,I dont know. BUT I would not say that running that system at full capacity to manipulate the suspension of a car with twice the weight and twice the tire contack patch will do it "without much difficulty". We have to realize that a car is made to drive for thousands of miles at a time on the street and last for well over 100,000 miles. That system is made to go on a sand and dirt toy that will never see 100 continuos miles and none of them will ever tally up 10,000miles. The sand and dirt is easy to turn the wheels compared to on the road. I am not so sure that system is ready to handle a " Fiero without much difficulty"
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 05-10-2012).]
Doesn't GM use purely electric power assist these days? Motors built into the steering column.. I think there's a build thread here somewhere even.. "Just" swap the column and electronics in, right..
I think thats how all the self-parking cars work too, much easier to proportionally control with a motor than hydraulics. Though they may use motorized columns and hydraulics together for big SUVs..
I used the F body rack 2000 T/A-WS and a (God help us) 2005 Toyota MR2 pump.
Works great.
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
Yes I have pics. Got to downsize them for posting on PIP. Keep an eye out and I'll see what I can do.
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
Kawasaki has come up with "Electra Steer" electronic power steering for their ATV's and UTV's.
$1000 for that kit.
For $500 they'll build you a custom hydraulic power rack and pinion to fit the Fiero. Send them an old steering rack and they'll make one for our application.
Why would anyone WANT power steering on a Fiero unless they had some physical disability?
The manual steering is a far better set up in terms of feel and handling.
quote
Originally posted by RWDPLZ:
The only time I would want it is in a parking lot, or for parallel parking.
This just shows me that you dont know all the benifits of power steering. Power steering for some is accually for performance. The F body rack has a MUCH faster ratio for better handleing. The ratio is so fast that it NEEDS assist to be able to to turn at walking speed. The faster ratio at the wheels means a mechanical disadvantage to the steering wheel. When you drive a Fiero with an F body rack and power steering, you will have a better understanding of why people do it. If you have never driven a power steering Fiero then how can you tell us who have, how it handles or feels? Bottom line is, a lot of modern sports cars have power assist. Why? Because the benifits are greater than the drawbacks.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 05-14-2012).]
Originally posted by Rickady88GT: This just shows me that you dont know all the benifits of power steering. Power steering for some is accually for performance. The F body rack has a MUCH faster ratio for better handling. The ratio is so fast that it NEEDS assist to be able to to turn at walking speed. The faster ratio at the wheels means a mechanical disadvantage to the steering wheel. When you drive a Fiero with an F body rack and power steering, you will have a better understanding of why people do it. If you have never driven a power steering Fiero then how can you tell us who have, how it handles or feels? Bottom line is, a lot of modern sports cars have power assist. Why? Because the benifits are greater than the drawbacks.
I simply stated that I would only want power steering in those situations, because I love the way the car feels and handles without it. Every car I have ever driven with power steering, has horrible steering feel. I strongly suspect modern sports car have power steering because old men are the only ones who can afford them. The BEST HANDLING cars, ie Caterham Seven, Lotus Elise, F40, etc. DO NOT have power steering, not just because it makes them lighter. Power steering WOULD be an advantage if you drifting around every corner, tires squealing and smoking. I'd love to drive a Fiero with power steering for comparison, but I don't think I would like it
GT service has done the MR2 power steering set up in a Fiero or two. Hard to locate the MR2 racks and it works great in 88s. I try not park in tight spaces with the Fieros.
Why would anyone WANT power steering on a Fiero unless they had some physical disability?
The manual steering is a far better set up in terms of feel and handling.
It could be really nice if you are running 245 x 50 x 15 or 265 x 50 x 15 tires in the front. They are a bit difficult to maneuver until you are at around 5 mph.
I used the F body rack 2000 T/A-WS and a (God help us) 2005 Toyota MR2 pump.
Works great.
Spoon
When I clicked on this thread and started reading through it, I thought "What about the MR2?"... Then I got to your post and thought "There ya GO!". While yes its from a MR2, I'd think it'd be one of the more doable options versus getting one of the setups from a Zimmer that isn't electronic.
When I clicked on this thread and started reading through it, I thought "What about the MR2?"... Then I got to your post and thought "There ya GO!". While yes its from a MR2, I'd think it'd be one of the more doable options versus getting one of the setups from a Zimmer that isn't electronic.
From road reviews that I read they say that the electric pump has an effect on steering wheel efforty and feel because of the ON/OFF nature of the pump. It turns on and runs at 100% then turns off and has 0% pump pressure. This ON/OFF switching causes a strange steering feel. I have never driven one so I do not know what it feels like but I can imagine. The hydro pump that comes on almost all GM engines work fine and have the perfect presure at any given time or RPM. This makes a seamless steering effort. The biggest hurdle for electric pumps will be to get the pump to make the correct pressure when you need it. Running at 100% is not good, so they need some way to regulate the pressure as needed.
BTW the F body rack in my 88GT "feels" very much like the stock Fiero rack, but I do not have to turn the wheel as far to get around a corner.
From road reviews that I read they say that the electric pump has an effect on steering wheel efforty and feel because of the ON/OFF nature of the pump. It turns on and runs at 100% then turns off and has 0% pump pressure. This ON/OFF switching causes a strange steering feel. I have never driven one so I do not know what it feels like but I can imagine. The hydro pump that comes on almost all GM engines work fine and have the perfect presure at any given time or RPM. This makes a seamless steering effort. The biggest hurdle for electric pumps will be to get the pump to make the correct pressure when you need it. Running at 100% is not good, so they need some way to regulate the pressure as needed.
BTW the F body rack in my 88GT "feels" very much like the stock Fiero rack, but I do not have to turn the wheel as far to get around a corner.
Hey Rickady88GT,
The MR2 electric pump senses the pressure in the system and also the mph of the vehicle via the Fiero VSS sensor. Pulses per mile of the Toyota is the same as Fiero. With this info the pump motor actually steps down and up as needed. I can barely hear the hum of the motor but its like 3 or 4 steps that are made. At idle and not moving the pump makes no assist until you move the steering wheel and then you hear the pump motor step up to give you the assist with virtually no wait time. If your rolling at engine idle speed the VSS signal sends info to the pump for assist. At highway speeds it drops down to barely any assist at all and feels like regular steering except for the quick ratio.
Its a great little compact unit with all the electronics built in. So there's no feel of any change assist in the steering as you operate the vehicle.
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
The MR2 electric pump senses the pressure in the system and also the mph of the vehicle via the Fiero VSS sensor. Pulses per mile of the Toyota is the same as Fiero. With this info the pump motor actually steps down and up as needed. I can barely hear the hum of the motor but its like 3 or 4 steps that are made. At idle and not moving the pump makes no assist until you move the steering wheel and then you hear the pump motor step up to give you the assist with virtually no wait time. If your rolling at engine idle speed the VSS signal sends info to the pump for assist. At highway speeds it drops down to barely any assist at all and feels like regular steering except for the quick ratio.
Its a great little compact unit with all the electronics built in. So there's no feel of any change assist in the steering as you operate the vehicle.
I have done P90X and love it. BUT it does not make the front wheels turn any faster than before P90X. It is the ratio that needs to be faster, with faster ratio you dont need to turn the steering wheel that much to get around a corner. No more hand over hand in hair pin corners.
Did the f-body rack need any modifications to be bolted into the Fiero? Where did you locate/place the Toyota power steering pump (up in the spare tire area)?
Our new Sonata has EPS and for the life of me can not figure out where the fluid is at. It feels no different then traditional PS except no drain on the system when turning the wheel. Yeah i have been looking at it for modding
If it is like the newer GM elctric power steering units, it is all electric and there is no fluid. Also probably hard to mod for another application since it is probably all controlled by the car's computers.
Kits all have same basic unit, but with correct brackets etc. to fit particular make and model. Site includes pictures of the cars and the installs. Look under "Makes".
Did the f-body rack need any modifications to be bolted into the Fiero? Where did you locate/place the Toyota power steering pump (up in the spare tire area)?
Thanks...
Yes the "F" body rack needs to be modified. The mounting lug on the drivers side of the rack needs to be ground off completely. Its part of the rack casting made of aluminum. I use a sawzall. And the mounting lug on the passenger side of the rack can be removed by cutting 2 spot welds with a dremmel tool.
Check out West Coast Fiero. They make the adapter plate that bolts to the cross member and the modified F rack will bolt to that. At the time I installed mine they were selling the complete kit including the rack if you needed one. They did not provide a pump.
From what I learned there are 2 versions of the F rack. If memory serves me the 94-97 will fit better than the later 98-2000 rack. The 94-97 has a straighter angle at the pinion and aligns up much better to the steering column.
I mounted my pump in the trunk drivers side corner and ran the hoses thru the drv side ground FX to the front of the car.
I'll dig some pics tonight and try to post.
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
I am very intrigued by that MR2 power steering unit. Very intrigued indeed. My question Spoon is why the trunk? There has to be room up front somewhere and that would really cut down on plumbing and things of course I have a battery in front so maybe electrical was a concern. I guess that by putting it in the trunk I see no reason to not try and adapt a mechanical pump to the engine instead.
I am very intrigued by that MR2 power steering unit. Very intrigued indeed. My question Spoon is why the trunk? There has to be room up front somewhere and that would really cut down on plumbing and things of course I have a battery in front so maybe electrical was a concern. I guess that by putting it in the trunk I see no reason to not try and adapt a mechanical pump to the engine instead.
Great idea however I like it a lot! Good work.
Mechanical pump would induce a larger loss on engine efficiency, I suspect. Though I do agree that having it be in the trunk is a bit extraneous. If using a hydraulic system, I'd want the lines to be as short as possible, to minimize problems in the event of damage; particularly in a vehicle I'd intend to race, where going much faster through curves, than on normal roads.
Mechanical pump would induce a larger loss on engine efficiency
This is a myth. The pump is a VERY little draw on the engine. And no draw at all when assist is not needed. For example the engine does not even know the pump is there in a steight line or at speed when the wheels induce less drag to turn. The ONLY time the pump is drawing power is at low speed and low throtle angle when the drive is turning the wheels a greater angles. IF the mechanical pump was such a loss in efficiency they would have been long gone by now, with all the pressurre from the fed to get better mpg. Yes they do draw power, but not enough to cause a problem, and definatly not enough for the average person to notice a loss of power or boost in economy.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 05-17-2012).]
Originally posted by Rickady88GT: Yes they do draw power, but not enough to cause a problem, and definatly not enough for the average person to notice a loss of power or boost in economy.
I didn't say it was enough to cause a problem. I said it likely would result in a larger drain on the engine, than the MR2 EHPS pump is. 0.0001% is still larger. But some people care about those things. And an average person is probably not someone who is installing power steering into a Fiero using an MR2 pump and Firebird steering rack. But perhaps that slight draw on the engine, is something that was cared about, or it was just done the way it was to be different.
Also, for autocross, the higher drain at low speeds would be a significant concern, because you're always turning at low speeds.
So no, not really a myth. However, varying circumstances do net varying results.
Yeah i have been looking at it for modding 
