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testing the waters on custom built headers and y pipes.. by 86 toy
Started on: 05-02-2012 08:12 AM
Replies: 72 (3512 views)
Last post by: 1fast2m4 on 01-05-2014 07:28 PM
86 toy
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Report this Post05-02-2012 08:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 toySend a Private Message to 86 toyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have been thinking about producing header for the Fiero for a variety of engine swaps..stock 2.8/3.4 3x00 swaps and even 3800 swaps with y pipe to go over the trans and hook to the exhaust in the stock location.. would anyone be interested in this product? I have noticed their are not many options when it comes to headers for our cars so my goal would be to provide affordable options and built to order headers..let me know what you guys think

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--Mark--
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JCircs
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Report this Post05-02-2012 08:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JCircsClick Here to Email JCircsSend a Private Message to JCircsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am looking into headers right now so I am interested....

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http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/087461.html

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Raydar
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Report this Post05-02-2012 08:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You have Trueleo for the V6 60s and Whodeanie for the 3800.
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86 toy
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Report this Post05-02-2012 08:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 toySend a Private Message to 86 toyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JCircs:

I am looking into headers right now so I am interested....



I'm assuming you have a 3.4.. are you looking for stainless or mild steel?
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Will
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Report this Post05-02-2012 10:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think you'd be better off redesigning the exhaust from ports to tips for the increased power output. Hooking a 200 HP engine up to an exhaust designed for a 140 HP engine isn't usually a good idea.
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86 toy
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Report this Post05-02-2012 02:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 toySend a Private Message to 86 toyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The y pipe would exit in the factory location but it doesn't have to be connected to the factory Exhaust system. One could build or buy a 2.5 or 3 " system that would support more hp
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Will
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Report this Post05-02-2012 03:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Where does one buy such a thing?
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86 toy
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Report this Post05-02-2012 03:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 toySend a Private Message to 86 toyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Where does one buy such a thing?


http://www.westcoastfiero.c...cat_back_system.html
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Will
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Report this Post05-02-2012 03:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As long as you're thinking about it...

So how's your product better than what WCF already sells?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-02-2012).]

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lou_dias
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Report this Post05-02-2012 03:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It only cost me $450 to go to a local custom exhaust shop and have them make a 2.5" exhaust from the Truleo downpipe and back, including a Flowmaster 55 series muffler and new tips...
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86 toy
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Report this Post05-02-2012 03:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 toySend a Private Message to 86 toyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

As long as you're thinking about it...

So how's your product better than what WCF already sells?


Price!!
Plus I will build to order so you can choose certain options like where the y pipe exits, pipe size, what material its made from.. plus wcf doesn't sell anything for the aluminum head 60° v6

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--Mark--
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Report this Post05-03-2012 12:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofan25Click Here to Email fierofan25Send a Private Message to fierofan25Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As long as it does not take 5 months to get Like WCF does.!!! I would like to have a 3800 set. Thanks
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Report this Post05-20-2012 10:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hdryderClick Here to Email hdryderSend a Private Message to hdryderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Have you started building any headers yet?

I need some headers for a '94 3800 Series I that is currently in a '85 Fiero.
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86 toy
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Report this Post05-20-2012 12:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 toySend a Private Message to 86 toyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hdryder:

Have you started building any headers yet?

I need some headers for a '94 3800 Series I that is currently in a '85 Fiero.

Pm sent
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86 toy
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Report this Post05-20-2012 12:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 toySend a Private Message to 86 toyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofan25:

As long as it does not take 5 months to get Like WCF does.!!! I would like to have a 3800 set. Thanks


Pm sent!
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Report this Post05-20-2012 03:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Francis TClick Here to visit Francis T's HomePageClick Here to Email Francis TSend a Private Message to Francis TEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I had thought about adding headers for some of more popular swaps but with low number of potential sales and jigs and what not required, it just didn't make good biz sense. Not to mention we would need get our hands Fieros with said swaps, - 3800 and whatever- to fit a set from which to make jigs.

Another thing to take into account is the fact that engines like 3800 have much better headers then 60deg V6s (most cars from 1930s had better designs) headers and thus don't need better headers anywhere near as desperately. Y pipes to accommodate the feiro yes.
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cam-a-lot
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Report this Post05-21-2012 12:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Make sure that if you are going to offer headers, make them on an actual engine, and allow them to naturally cool off.

My P.O.S. WCF headers have been a nightmare because the Y pipe connects to one header, or the other, but not both. Please use regular clamps, not Marman clamps, unless your headers are pretty much perfectly lined up, with parallel mating faces. Otherwise you will have customers such as myself who will be fantasizing about beating you with your headers

Good luck! I think they will sell as long as you make and ship them promptly, and do not ask for full payment up front without having a product to ship. Too many people here have been burned by fly-by-night vendors who ask for payment, and then take weeks/months to ship.
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86 toy
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Report this Post05-21-2012 07:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 toySend a Private Message to 86 toyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cam-a-lot:

Make sure that if you are going to offer headers, make them on an actual engine, and allow them to naturally cool off.

My P.O.S. WCF headers have been a nightmare because the Y pipe connects to one header, or the other, but not both. Please use regular clamps, not Marman clamps, unless your headers are pretty much perfectly lined up, with parallel mating faces. Otherwise you will have customers such as myself who will be fantasizing about beating you with your headers

Good luck! I think they will sell as long as you make and ship them promptly, and do not ask for full payment up front without having a product to ship. Too many people here have been burned by fly-by-night vendors who ask for payment, and then take weeks/months to ship.

Thanks for the tips and yes I will be building them on an actual mock up engine and will most likely use flat bolt flanges to connect to the y pipe. I will only be asking for a small down payment to start the building process and turn them out as fast as I can..
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Report this Post05-21-2012 07:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Axl_RoseClick Here to Email Axl_RoseSend a Private Message to Axl_RoseEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would be interested when i actually get time to do my swap. GL with everything, i hope it works out bc from what i hear, WCF headers are alotta crapola.


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cam-a-lot
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Report this Post05-21-2012 08:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
One thing I forgot to add is that on the WCF header, the A/C line doesn't want to clear. It is an incredibly tight fit. This is something to consider when designing yours, since many of us don't like to sweat our butts off when driving in the summer, and A/C is very important to a large percentage of the population.
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hookdonspeed
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Report this Post05-21-2012 08:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hookdonspeedClick Here to visit hookdonspeed's HomePageClick Here to Email hookdonspeedSend a Private Message to hookdonspeedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
if you offered a high-flow set for the 00+ 3400 / 3500's id def be interested... maybe not in the Y as im going turbo, but the headers part def... if they were available right now id jump on the whole setup, as im bout to take my car for "custom" exhaust and buying pre-made i could do at home would be so much better :/
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86 toy
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Report this Post05-21-2012 09:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 toySend a Private Message to 86 toyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hookdonspeed:

if you offered a high-flow set for the 00+ 3400 / 3500's id def be interested... maybe not in the Y as im going turbo, but the headers part def... if they were available right now id jump on the whole setup, as im bout to take my car for "custom" exhaust and buying pre-made i could do at home would be so much better :/


 
quote
Originally posted by 86 toy:

here is some pics of my 3400 headers and ypipe i built for my 3400 car…








I could build yours similar but point the collectors toward your Turbo mounting location so the y pipe would be easier to build..pm me if your interested

[This message has been edited by 86 toy (edited 05-21-2012).]

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Report this Post05-21-2012 09:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for flimbobSend a Private Message to flimbobEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've got a 3500(lx9) mated to a 4t60. Would be interested in a set that would bolt up to the existing exhaust. What would cost and turn time be?
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86 toy
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Report this Post05-21-2012 10:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 toySend a Private Message to 86 toyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by flimbob:

I've got a 3500(lx9) mated to a 4t60. Would be interested in a set that would bolt up to the existing exhaust. What would cost and turn time be?


What is you existing exhaust? It will be very hard to match up to what you already have without having your car here.. if its a stock Fiero system I may be able to get that pretty close otherwise maybe I can give you a head pipe that you could fit up to your existing cat
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Report this Post05-21-2012 10:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for flimbobSend a Private Message to flimbobEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 86 toy:


What is you existing exhaust? It will be very hard to match up to what you already have without having your car here.. if its a stock Fiero system I may be able to get that pretty close otherwise maybe I can give you a head pipe that you could fit up to your existing cat


Currently I have a bone stock 2.8/125c. Exhaust is stock.

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86 toy
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Report this Post05-21-2012 10:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 toySend a Private Message to 86 toyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by flimbob:


Currently I have a bone stock 2.8/125c. Exhaust is stock.

Ok i can do stock because I have a stock exhaust that I could build to on my mock up cradle. I'll get some prices around for everyone tonight when I get home from work
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Report this Post05-21-2012 10:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It is often difficult to enter this forum, and push a possiblely new product. There have been many, many crooks/liars.

Having said that, I am very much impressed with the pics that you supplied. The welds look beautiful, and perhaps you do know a thing or two about fabrication. I say, good luck to you, and as long as you can do what you say, you will be an asset to this community.

Tony
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86 toy
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Report this Post05-21-2012 11:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 toySend a Private Message to 86 toyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Tony Kania:

It is often difficult to enter this forum, and push a possiblely new product. There have been many, many crooks/liars.

Having said that, I am very much impressed with the pics that you supplied. The welds look beautiful, and perhaps you do know a thing or two about fabrication. I say, good luck to you, and as long as you can do what you say, you will be an asset to this community.

Tony

Thanks for the good word Tony. I am a tig welder for a company that builds pharmaceutical process equipment. We do alot of pipe fitting and welding so that is where my fabrication skills come from not to mention I have been a car guy all my life and have built a few off road trucks and roll cages..

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Report this Post05-21-2012 11:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Very Nice work. There is always need for a new source of Fiero headers. WCF builds custom Fiero 3800SC headers but the reports on them have been mixed. Whodeanie and Bmwguru have also built some really nice 3800 headers and some owners have adapted the Other Guys Grand Prix headers to their cars for cost considerations.
The problem is that few owners will spend the money for totally custom headers. If you want a new product I suggest that you offer a modification service so the Other Guys or Speed Daddy Grand Prix headers can fit without cutting out the trunk. This would mean using the OG front header and crossover pipe and re-engineering or making a new rear header that can exit directly into a 13" cross flow muffler like the Flotech Afterburner or Spintech.
Check out this set of stainless steel headers for $217 complete. http://www.ebay.com/itm/STA. ..p=mtr#ht_4219wt_1076
------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 05-21-2012).]

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Report this Post05-21-2012 11:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for a_bartleClick Here to Email a_bartleSend a Private Message to a_bartleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Wow, those look really sweet! Any idea on prices yet?
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Report this Post05-21-2012 11:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Francis TClick Here to visit Francis T's HomePageClick Here to Email Francis TSend a Private Message to Francis TEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
After making your first set on a car -they look good btw- don't simply make stand-alone jigs from them. Instead, I suggest you buy a useless/junk 3800. Put it on an engine stand, mount your headers and Y pipe and then make and mount the jigs needed. That will give you and exact fit and the heads will also provide a good mounting to point that will not warp while you weld your runners to the head flanges. It will also make construction a lot easier as you can rotate the engine on the stand for better access when welding. Yeah, the engine will take up up more shop space, but in the long run it work out better. Good luck.

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trueleo.com
RSpiderII@aol.com

[This message has been edited by Francis T (edited 05-21-2012).]

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Report this Post05-21-2012 12:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hdryderClick Here to Email hdryderSend a Private Message to hdryderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
86 toy,
I am getting an error message when I try to PM back.
I am interested in the Headers for the 3800 Series I, with a '88 5-speed, in an '85 car.
Will probably use WCF 2-3/4" exhaust system
Email: h_d_ryder@hotmail.com
Thanks,
Luke
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Report this Post05-21-2012 12:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Pete MatosSend a Private Message to Pete MatosEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Interesting.... What kind of back purge setup are you using for these? A couple of those look like they got pretty damn hot. The rear side looks pretty good but the front side routing could be a bit tidier. Other than that it looks like you know what you are doing. Where did you get the flanges and what kind of coupler brackets are those? What sort of stainless tubing do you use? I am going to be tig welding my own setup once I get the 3800 block here and I am not up on the latest coupler technology plus am looking for a good source for the tube. I have a tube bender now and a tube roller so I can make pretty much whatever I need and I have been welding for many, many years now. Tig is just too sweet!! peace

Pete

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86 toy
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Report this Post05-21-2012 01:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 toySend a Private Message to 86 toyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Pete Matos:

Interesting.... What kind of back purge setup are you using for these? A couple of those look like they got pretty damn hot. The rear side looks pretty good but the front side routing could be a bit tidier. Other than that it looks like you know what you are doing. Where did you get the flanges and what kind of coupler brackets are those? What sort of stainless tubing do you use? I am going to be tig welding my own setup once I get the 3800 block here and I am not up on the latest coupler technology plus am looking for a good source for the tube. I have a tube bender now and a tube roller so I can make pretty much whatever I need and I have been welding for many, many years now. Tig is just too sweet!! peace

Pete

I had the flanges laser cut by a friend who has access to a cnc laser at his work. The tubing isn't stainless its 16 gauge mild steel. I bought all my tubing and collectors from cone engineering. As for purge I just ran a constant flow of argon through the inside of the header while welding. Its not a necessary step but it does make for a cleaner weld. The clamps you see are sanitary furl connection.. I be leave tfs sells them for headers but I got mine from the scrap bin at work I will not use that type of connection again because its just to hard to get everything to stay put while welding and if the fit is off even the slightest bit they don't clamp together..

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Report this Post05-21-2012 01:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TindritusClick Here to Email TindritusSend a Private Message to TindritusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
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Report this Post05-21-2012 04:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 toySend a Private Message to 86 toyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
so i have done a little more research on pricing for the headers it looks like i will be able to offer most sets with a y pipe for $400 plus shipping that is for 16 guage mild steel tubing uncoated and 3/8 thick head flanges 1 5/8" header primary tubes and 2" y pipe to a 2.5" or 3" down pipe this size pipe should work well with most 3x00 and 3800 engines. as for the 2.8 to 3.4 pr engines they would have 1 1/2" header primary tubes because i think it's physically impossible to fit larger pipe between the bolt studsthe y pipe will be built to exit in the stock location i can also offer a pre cat down pipe for $40. I can do custom sets in any size you want as long as it is reasonable and available from my supplier for an additional cost.. as of now i don't have my mock up stands set up but i hope to do that before this weekend. pm me or email m.welliver27@gmail.com i will accept paypal for payment or cash on pickup.. i will be asking for a $50 down payment that will be deducted from the total cost. full payment will be due upon completion of the headers and before shipping. i will ship as cheap as possible and will calculate cost per order..
thanks for everyones interest in my product i will do my best to make a quality header that FITS right the first time
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Report this Post05-21-2012 04:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Pete MatosSend a Private Message to Pete MatosEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 86 toy:

I had the flanges laser cut by a friend who has access to a cnc laser at his work. The tubing isn't stainless its 16 gauge mild steel. I bought all my tubing and collectors from cone engineering. As for purge I just ran a constant flow of argon through the inside of the header while welding. Its not a necessary step but it does make for a cleaner weld. The clamps you see are sanitary furl connection.. I be leave tfs sells them for headers but I got mine from the scrap bin at work I will not use that type of connection again because its just to hard to get everything to stay put while welding and if the fit is off even the slightest bit they don't clamp together..


I never said it was stainless I asked where you got your stainless tubing or otherwise from? I weld a LOT of stainless steel tubing here in my shop and I USUALLY back purge the tubing especially on thin wall tube if it is gonna flow any sort of fluid or gas, ya kinda need to or you get pretty crystallized pretty quickly especially if you get it too hot on the back side of the weld. I will check out the Cone engineering for supplies most of my stuff I do here is industrial type fittings and I have never done any stainless headers or exhaust work as of yet. What do you normally do to the mild steel tubing exhaust you make because in my experience with non-aluminized tube that is not coated somehow it will rust in a VERY SHORT order. Anyways, I wish you luck with selling these setups and I will say that you need to do whatever is necessary to make sure they fit well and are of good quality or I think you will find you will be not selling too many at all here because word gets around real quick amongst Fiero guys on this forum. Make a good product and price it reasonably and you will find lots of work to do by the same token. Peace

Pete

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86 toy
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Report this Post05-21-2012 05:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 toySend a Private Message to 86 toyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
on the headers for my 3400 after they were complete i bead blasted them and painted them with header paint and baked them as per the instructions on the can.. my wife just rolled her eyes when she saw me putting my headers in the oven..lol your right about the welds christallizing on the inside of the tube if you don't use gas it can get ugly quick .. cone engineering has alot of DIY header parts and also sell muffler kits and parts to build your own mufflers. as for larger diameter aluminized tubing i go to summit racing and buy the dynomax mandrel J bends..
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Arns85GT
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Report this Post05-21-2012 07:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTClick Here to Email Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I really commend any guy who is willing to take on making headers for fellow enthusiasts.

It is hard to make even a respectable amount for your time doing this on a custom basis. So, please accept these observations as constructive criticism.

That said, I have been saying for several years that the optimum header for the Fiero is over 30" primaries. The short "sprint" primaries are only good for WOT applications. They work better than the stock logs, no doubt about it, but, you just won't get the torque you want unless the runners are long enough to create scavenge at the lower rpms.

If you buy the book "Scientific Design of Exhaust & Intake Systems" by Philip H.Smith and John C. Morrison, you will get a full breakdown of the science of building exhausts for 4 and 6 cylinder engines, which is the Fiero.

Here is the formula I used to create my true duals. Believe me when I say they give the engine a pretty good kick, but I still have yet to dyno them.



Also, I could not find a way to create long tube headers around the 2.8 using the stock exhaust downstream. There just wasn't room.

Personally, if I had to chose between the Trueleo, the Sprints, or these ones, it would be the Trueleo because they are equal length and long enough to give a good performance curve.

If I was making them to resell, I would try to get the equal length for sure, and the 22" length on 1.5" pipe if possible.

Good luck on the development

Arn

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86 toy
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Report this Post05-21-2012 09:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 toySend a Private Message to 86 toyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Arns85GT:

I really commend any guy who is willing to take on making headers for fellow enthusiasts.

It is hard to make even a respectable amount for your time doing this on a custom basis. So, please accept these observations as constructive criticism.

That said, I have been saying for several years that the optimum header for the Fiero is over 30" primaries. The short "sprint" primaries are only good for WOT applications. They work better than the stock logs, no doubt about it, but, you just won't get the torque you want unless the runners are long enough to create scavenge at the lower rpms.

If you buy the book "Scientific Design of Exhaust & Intake Systems" by Philip H.Smith and John C. Morrison, you will get a full breakdown of the science of building exhausts for 4 and 6 cylinder engines, which is the Fiero.

Here is the formula I used to create my true duals. Believe me when I say they give the engine a pretty good kick, but I still have yet to dyno them.



Also, I could not find a way to create long tube headers around the 2.8 using the stock exhaust downstream. There just wasn't room.

Personally, if I had to chose between the Trueleo, the Sprints, or these ones, it would be the Trueleo because they are equal length and long enough to give a good performance curve.

If I was making them to resell, I would try to get the equal length for sure, and the 22" length on 1.5" pipe if possible.

Good luck on the development

Arn


thanks for the info Arn i will definatly take this info into consideration and maybe offer equil length sets also but i think a little r&d will have to be involved to see what i can fit

[This message has been edited by 86 toy (edited 05-21-2012).]

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