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Just another 3800SC Swap by slideways
Started on: 04-30-2012 01:55 PM
Replies: 104 (3433 views)
Last post by: Lou and Blue on 05-17-2014 02:16 PM
slideways
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Report this Post07-03-2012 09:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for slidewaysSend a Private Message to slidewaysEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
update:
-new fuel pump / lines installed
-vacuume lines
-wire harness
-pulleys and belt routing ( just need to find the right length belt)


I hope someone can help me verify this vacuume line configuration... I am removing the boost bypass solenoid and actuator. Currently I have the fuel pressure regulator and MAP sensor connected to the outlet underneath the SC snout but does this still need to return to the port on top of the SC?

Also. The Fuel pump/ sending unit... Is anyone else concerned about non insulated connections submerged in the gas tank??


















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phonedawgz
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Report this Post07-03-2012 09:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by slideways:

update:
-new fuel pump / lines installed
-vacuume lines
-wire harness
-pulleys and belt routing ( just need to find the right length belt)


I hope someone can help me verify this vacuume line configuration... I am removing the boost bypass solenoid and actuator. Currently I have the fuel pressure regulator and MAP sensor connected to the outlet underneath the SC snout but does this still need to return to the port on top of the SC?




No

The BBV vacuum diaphragm had PCM controlled boost pressure on one side, and intake vacuum on the other side. The diaphragm however does not allow flow between the two. Thus there should be no vacuum line connection between the boost side and the vacuum only side of the supercharger.

 
quote
Also. The Fuel pump/ sending unit... Is anyone else concerned about non insulated connections submerged in the gas tank??


It has been that way for a long time without causing problems. - Gas is not conductive.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 07-03-2012).]

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slideways
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Report this Post07-04-2012 07:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for slidewaysSend a Private Message to slidewaysEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thank you, I understand now. Snout side is under boost. Vacuum on the intake side. Fuel pressure regulator relies on the difference in pressure to keep fuel pressure relative to MAP. Joining the vacuum side would have confused the MAP sensor and regulator.

[This message has been edited by slideways (edited 07-04-2012).]

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phonedawgz
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Report this Post07-04-2012 10:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Kinda

Connecting the output of the supercharger (LIM) to the input of the supercharger via a vacuum line would in part defeat some of the purpose of the vacuum line. It would also show the incorrect boost/vacuum to the MAP and FPR.

The engineers at GM have made many of the mission critical items of the EFI redundant in the 3800, and later engines. They have 2 crank pick-ups and a cam pick up. They have the fuel pump able to receive power via the oil pressure switch, and via the fuel pump relay. On the 3800 they have two ways of measuring air flow into the engine, both the MAF, and the calculated air flow via the MAP.

Having two ways to calculate air flow gives them almost fully redundant fail over if one way fails. It also allows the engineers to be even more accurate on their measurements.

So anyways if the MAP is not seeing the actual pressure in the LIM, the PCM is not going to be pulsing the injectors with the proper time width pulse.

---
The fuel pressure regulator is designed to keep the delta pressure from the LIM side of the injector to the fuel side of the injector, a constant. If that was not kept constant, the PCM would have to have some very complicated flow rate tables to adjust for how much fuel flows at what delta pressure for your injectors. Much much simpler is just to use a FPR that keeps the delta a constant.
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slideways
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Report this Post07-06-2012 09:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for slidewaysSend a Private Message to slidewaysEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

Kinda

Connecting the output of the supercharger (LIM) to the input of the supercharger via a vacuum line would in part defeat some of the purpose of the vacuum line. It would also show the incorrect boost/vacuum to the MAP and FPR.

The engineers at GM have made many of the mission critical items of the EFI redundant in the 3800, and later engines. They have 2 crank pick-ups and a cam pick up. They have the fuel pump able to receive power via the oil pressure switch, and via the fuel pump relay. On the 3800 they have two ways of measuring air flow into the engine, both the MAF, and the calculated air flow via the MAP.

Having two ways to calculate air flow gives them almost fully redundant fail over if one way fails. It also allows the engineers to be even more accurate on their measurements.

So anyways if the MAP is not seeing the actual pressure in the LIM, the PCM is not going to be pulsing the injectors with the proper time width pulse.

---
The fuel pressure regulator is designed to keep the delta pressure from the LIM side of the injector to the fuel side of the injector, a constant. If that was not kept constant, the PCM would have to have some very complicated flow rate tables to adjust for how much fuel flows at what delta pressure for your injectors. Much much simpler is just to use a FPR that keeps the delta a constant.


That's interesting, it wouldn't surprise me if you're some kind of automotive engineer or something, or even more impressive if you've reverse engineered all that yourself.

So if I've understood that correctly, the difference in delta pressure between the manifold and fuel is always constant regardless of fuel consumption. For example, at idle, say MAP reads -5psi, and fuel pressure is 35psi: delta = 40. Say at 3500RPM under boost condition, MAP reads +5psi, will the fuel pressure jump to 45psi? (Delta + MAP)

I know I've got the vac line set up properly but I still like to think in my head whats actualy going on.

[This message has been edited by slideways (edited 07-06-2012).]

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phonedawgz
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Report this Post07-06-2012 11:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes you are correct on the fuel pressures. The in take fuel pump is designed to pump more than enough fuel for all fuel consumptions and normal operating pressures. Because of the FPR, consumption never affects fuel pressure.

Thanks for the remarks.

No not an engineer, just a hack.
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slideways
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Report this Post07-11-2012 04:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for slidewaysSend a Private Message to slidewaysEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Its alive!

http://s1086.photobucket.co...current=IMG_1218.mp4

[This message has been edited by slideways (edited 07-11-2012).]

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slideways
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Report this Post07-11-2012 10:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for slidewaysSend a Private Message to slidewaysEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The house its built, time for the trim.

To do:
-shift bracket
-heat shields
-reinforce trunk wall for eng. torque arm - T Channel along trunk wall joining coil buckets, welded to poly mount.
-clean up wires, fuel lines
-exhaust...

long way to go.








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slideways
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Report this Post08-19-2012 07:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for slidewaysSend a Private Message to slidewaysEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here are some updates and a 0-120 run if anyone is still checking up:


THIS THING IS INSANE HOLY **** !! The first 500 mile break in was very painful it took everything I had. But my patients has paid off, the clutch, mounts and axles easily handle WOT. I chirped 4rth 'by accident' The noise of that blower is beautiful. Cant wait to install the pulley and the other goodies... and get a 1/4 mile time



Lots of little things left, #1 is a heat shield or airbox for the intake, poor thing is just sucking in hot air from the engine compartment














This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

[This message has been edited by slideways (edited 10-15-2012).]

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ridingr6
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Report this Post08-19-2012 08:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ridingr6Click Here to Email ridingr6Send a Private Message to ridingr6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
great work . what did you use for your fuel lines i'm ready to make fuel lines for my 3800sc swap and like what you did.
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slideways
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Report this Post08-19-2012 08:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for slidewaysSend a Private Message to slidewaysEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ridingr6:

great work . what did you use for your fuel lines i'm ready to make fuel lines for my 3800sc swap and like what you did.


-6AN hose and fittings from summit. Not the cheapest setup ($200 shipped) but looks alright. I could probably find the list with everything I ordered if your interested
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Report this Post08-19-2012 08:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ridingr6Click Here to Email ridingr6Send a Private Message to ridingr6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
very interested thanks
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Hudini
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Report this Post08-19-2012 09:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HudiniClick Here to Email HudiniSend a Private Message to HudiniEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Congrats! Boost is much fun.

Have you had any issues with the fuel lines so close to the exhaust crossover? Is there a heat shield that you can't see in the pics?
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slideways
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Report this Post08-19-2012 09:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for slidewaysSend a Private Message to slidewaysEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ridingr6:

very interested thanks


You will also need to add a -6 male / -6 male adapter to join the 2 female ends from the filter/hose end
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slideways
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Report this Post08-19-2012 09:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for slidewaysSend a Private Message to slidewaysEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

slideways

117 posts
Member since Apr 2012
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:

Congrats! Boost is much fun.

Have you had any issues with the fuel lines so close to the exhaust crossover? Is there a heat shield that you can't see in the pics?


I dont like it either, but the lines are secured with 2 ring clamps in that area. they cant get closer than 6" to the crossover and they didnt heat up much after a good run
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Report this Post08-19-2012 09:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ridingr6Click Here to Email ridingr6Send a Private Message to ridingr6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
thanks, i have been trying to figure out what i needed for the past week and everything came to a stand still, now i can get started again. thanks
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slideways
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Report this Post09-10-2012 09:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for slidewaysSend a Private Message to slidewaysEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Problems....

Clutch release point started getting closer and closer to the floor during a half hour drive. It got to a point where it would not completely disengage with the pedal all the way to the floor. It was nearly impossible to get it into 1st by the time I made it home.

1st thing I did was bleed the clutch, and indeed there was lots of air. But this is where it gets strange... After about 30-40 pumps (topping up the reservoir every 3 pumps) kept getting air from the bleeder. So I ripped out the master cyl, disassembled, everything looks good. Re-bleed, same issue, air bubbles every time.

This is when I noticed a 2nd puddle starting from inside the bellhousing... So great the HTOB is toast.... I dropped the cradle and found another surprise...

The clutch fingers looked bent, this was a result of 3 of the 6 PP - FW bolts coming loose. Luckily I caught it in time before anything worse happened. PP fingers are OK after re torquing the bolts. The scary part is I did not feel any vibrations, chatter or rough engagement. I even went WOT a few times on the last ride. The HTOB seal could have failed from mating to the bent fingers.

The clutch disk is another mystery... I found grooves on the FW side, this is either caused by the PP pushing unevenly or some foreign crap that got in there, some would call this disk toast, it looks worse in the pics and I dont even have 1000km on it. I'm gonna try and re-use it. PP side is still perfect

I DID torque every bolt down myself and made extra care in doing so, however, I DID NOT use lock-tite... Your damn right ill be loading it up with RED when I re-install. Up until this day I would have bet my left nut it's impossible for a properly torqued bolt to un-do itself. But it happens...



[This message has been edited by slideways (edited 09-10-2012).]

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slideways
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Report this Post10-14-2012 06:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for slidewaysSend a Private Message to slidewaysEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


What a blast to drive. You can see in passenger mirror at the beginning of the vid the Z06 was killing me in the turns, but I could actually pull away from him in the straights.

[This message has been edited by slideways (edited 10-14-2012).]

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Report this Post10-14-2012 10:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for XgovernmentAgentSend a Private Message to XgovernmentAgentEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Oh wow. Man there must be something wrong with my setup if you are pulling from a Z06. I can't even hear my supercharger!
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Report this Post10-14-2012 10:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sco77Click Here to Email sco77Send a Private Message to sco77Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
nice blower whine, is that stock pulley? did you block the silencer ports?

------------------
86 Fiero GT 4spd - (pending L67 swap)
98 GTP - CAI, ZZP 304 3" DP, 304 PLOG, 3.5", Overkill PCM, PRJ wires, Autolite 605s, 180*, STB, Alt rewire, Projectors, 6000k HID, 12" Brakes, GMPP

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slideways
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Report this Post10-15-2012 09:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for slidewaysSend a Private Message to slidewaysEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote


Oh wow. Man there must be something wrong with my setup if you are pulling from a Z06. I can't even hear my supercharger!



OR maybe something wrong with his car! Although the guy did come up after and asked WTF I had in there.


 
quote


nice blower whine, is that stock pulley? did you block the silencer ports?



Its a 3.4 pulley. You guys must be using the plastic corrugated intake tube! That kills all the sound Im using a cheap GTP CAI off ebay, and made a little heat shield to funnel the air from the hood and side vents.
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Report this Post10-16-2012 08:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sco77Click Here to Email sco77Send a Private Message to sco77Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by slideways:


Its a 3.4 pulley. You guys must be using the plastic corrugated intake tube! That kills all the sound Im using a cheap GTP CAI off ebay, and made a little heat shield to funnel the air from the hood and side vents.


Why not get some of the aluminum intake tubing, silicone couplers and make a wheel well intake that sit right at the side vent and away from engine heat? That's what I am going to do with my build.

------------------
86 Fiero GT 4spd - (pending L67 swap)
98 GTP - CAI, ZZP 304 3" DP, 304 PLOG, 3.5", Overkill PCM, PRJ wires, Autolite 605s, 180*, STB, Alt rewire, Projectors, 6000k HID, 12" Brakes, GMPP

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slideways
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Report this Post10-17-2012 09:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for slidewaysSend a Private Message to slidewaysEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sco77:


Why not get some of the aluminum intake tubing, silicone couplers and make a wheel well intake that sit right at the side vent and away from engine heat? That's what I am going to do with my build.



Not a bad idea, even with the heat sheild the intake temps are 40 -50C during normal driving. Maybe even some insulation wraped aroubd the intake tube would help.
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slideways
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Report this Post10-05-2013 06:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for slidewaysSend a Private Message to slidewaysEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Updart:
Havnt done anything in the last year except put air in the tires and change the oil. Racked up around 15 000 hard KM's with no issues yet. The F-23 and aluminum flywheel is a great combo, the gear changes are instantaneous compared to other cars I've driven. The clutch is great but a little picky - very grabby and noisy the first few starts but drives almost like a normal clutch once warmed up. The heavy non sprung full disk is chattery at idle I find myself holding the clutch in at intersections cause the noise is almost embarrassing.

Without a cat its pretty stinky, even in the cab. Every time a I go for a cruise I come back smelling like exhaust. I dont ever drive with the windows closed cause the fumes find their way to the cab.

I've only mentioned the cons here cause there are way to many pros to list. All in all the work was %1000 worth it I cant describe how fun the car is to drive now. The disgusted look on peoples faces when you smoke there fancy BMW's and V8's is priceless
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Report this Post05-17-2014 02:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou and BlueClick Here to Email Lou and BlueSend a Private Message to Lou and BlueEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Please see my new 3800 swap post And please help with links to parts (inexpensive) and step by step info.
Thank you!
Louis

------------------
===Always trying to find time to work on cars===
Louis Duet
Baldwin, Long Island, NY
Where driving hard is SOP.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT
Stock V6---Stock everything. Trying to keep it 'mostly' that way. That is until I can find a 3800sc to swap into it!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12
The "DuetLorean"
VIN #5835
Stock PRV engine
Robertson Equipped
Neiland/Delman Engineered
Carbed and loving it! (Peugot 604 manifold) ---"Sorry purists"

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