I've seen some posts for the non-staggered wheels recommending 225/50/ZR15s. I'm also leaning towards the Kumho Ecsta V710s. Should I go with a set of these four for the staggered wheels as well? or should I go with something like the 225/50/ZR15 rear with 205/55/ZR15 front? (same diameter but staggered?) or should I do something wider? (the Hoosier dealer here said he's seen people put 300s on 7" wide wheels).
Running stock class SCCA so sticking with stock wheel sizes.
I would go with a square setup, since that would allow you to rotate the tires. I put 275's on 8" rims, but I have to question 300's on 7" rims. You certainly could put 225's or 245's on 7" rims.
The 710's are good autocross tires, though the Hoosier A6's are still hard to beat. Hankook Z214's are a lot cheaper and I've seen several autocrossers use them, though I'm not sure you get the wear out of them you will from the Kuhmo's. Make sure you get the C70 compound if you use them.
I think tire rack has the z214's for $155 vs. $225 for the V710's.
I wouldn't recommend anything larger than 225's on 7" rims though. There are lots of issues with tire width. In general the wider the better, but you also have to get heat in the tires and too wide a tire can almost be counterproductive. I think Hoosier is the only tire manuf. making 275's in a 15" tire and they're $240 each, though if you order them from Hoosier West, they're giving a 10% discount through April.
Also the Hankooks are 45 series so that should help the gearing slightly.
So you think I should go with the 225/45ZR15 all the way around (even on the staggered wheels) for the rotation benefit, (too bad theres a 2 month wait to get 4 in that size). Would there be any performance benefit if I still mix it up and put 205/50s on the front to compensate for the wheel size difference?
Do you have any idea what the life of a Z214 is? They don't seem that much cheaper (175 from tire rack compared to 225 from the kumhos), but what i've heard from peers with the kumhos is that they last forever compared to the A6. (I've heard A6s can last a season, the kumhos could last several). If I go with the kumhos would you recommend the 225/50R15 all the way around?
I think the reason why most automakers stagger tire sizes is to insure understeer. Putting larger tires on the front will give you more grip. As to the staggered wheel size, does anyone know if the Fiero was available with a square setup from the factory? If it was then you could do that and stay within the stock rules.
Also this year, the stock rules were changed to allow you to alter either the front or the rear sway bar (or add a rear if the car didn't come with one). Prior the only modification was allowed to the front.
As to the Hankooks, one guy was using them on his C4 Corvette and another on his 3 series BMW. Both went back to Hoosiers. I think both were related to limited negative camber, which caused the outside to wear.
Another option to consider. Most clubs now offer a street tire class using the stock pax. In fact, that's what I did with my C4 vette while the Cadero was down, put a set of Nitto NT05 and ran in the street tire class. The amount of grip street tires is pretty impressive. Hankook RS3 tires come in the 225 size and are only a little over $100. Dunlop Star Spec, Bridgestone RE11 and Kuhmo XS are all great autocross street tires. I used the NTO5 because that or the XS were the only tires available in the 275-17 size.
'88's had square 14x6 setup or the staggered 15x6,15x7 setup. Since the Fiero is so light in the front, the narrower front tire does not induce understeer. The square setup on a Fiero will have natural oversteer at the limit and a strong trailing throttle reaction if you lift abruptly in a corner. The staggered tire setup reduces this.
I'm already investing a few k into a stock build. Rebuilding the stock motor to max alotted stock specs for SCCA, and got a nice flashy paint job. My budget is about 6k total, and I think I can stay well within it. New stock bushings, wheels, tires, front sway bar were part of the plan, as well as braided brake lines, ceramic pads, softer front suspension (but stock equivalent), and harder rear suspension (stock equivalent), K&N air and free flowing exhaust. I'll also be getting an aggressive alignment, and fine tuning things between races, I think I'd rather go this route and fight it out in ES than go into the tire index since cost isn't my issue, and here ES is a pretty competitive class. (I've been racing a 2010 and a 2011 Camaro SS, but decided I'd rather race a car I can dedicate to autox, and the fiero is the only 2 seater affordable sports car my 6'9"ness can fit in). Also planning on picking up a car hauler.
Didn't know about the new rule, but that would be HUGE in helping the fiero compete with the miatas. I googled it but I can't seem to find this, and my hard copy rule book is outdated. I looked up the rule book http://scca.cdn.racersites....Solo_Rules_March.pdf but on both my work PC and my laptop it just sits there and says "loading" but doesnt do anything. Any insight exactly what the adjustment was?
OK finally was able to download it (doesnt like chrome- no problem with IE), and i think you helped with the tire question (I'll get 225s). Although non-staggered 14s were available for the non GT, my understanding is the GT and formula only came with the staggered, and therefore I must maintain staggered.
I see the rule change.
Since the fiero has a 1/2 decent front sway bar, does it make more sense to put in a beefed up front sway bar with poly bushings? or is it better to leave the stock front sway and add a rear sway?
your help is greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
[This message has been edited by Arachnyd (edited 04-18-2012).]
braided brake lines and clutch lines are fair game for cars older than 1992 in stock. I've been told you can change the spring rate you just can't change the ride height or type. Scca rulebook seems to allow stock replacement springs, and some brands are firmer than others. mixing brands seemingly can meet the rule requirements while giving you a mixed spring rate effect.
Most the stock racers around here seem to be swapping springs, and on my camaro thats one of the things my mentor (who is a AS national competitor) recommended was putting in new springs. I also know a lot of the LS autocrossers (v6 camaro) pop in the V8 springs for stock racing and it seems to be fair game?
It looks like per the rule book springs are fair game but you can't alter them in any way, or swap in coilovers. Maybe my experience has jaded my interperetation however. My personal opinion is I'll push the limits, but I won't break rules. I'd rather lose with clean conscious than win knowing I cheated. I know a lot of others disagree and say if your not cheating your not winning.
*edit*- doing further research I've confirmed any shocks and springs are fair game as long as they use the stock mounts.
*edit 2*- doing another hour of research unconfirms my confirmation. Any shocks are fair game, but springs need to be stock height... although theres significant argument if they have to have the same spring rate or not.
[This message has been edited by Arachnyd (edited 04-19-2012).]
It's my understanding that if you change a part that was part of an option (say higher rate springs) you have to change every other part that was included in the option to be legal in stock class.
*edit 2*- doing another hour of research unconfirms my confirmation. Any shocks are fair game, but springs need to be stock height... although theres significant argument if they have to have the same spring rate or not.
To compete in stock class you can change shocks, front or rear anti-roll bar, and any size tire you can fit on stock rims.
As I said in the last post, you can update to an option that could have been ordered on the car, but only if you update every part of the option.
edit. The K&N filter is ok as long as it is a direct replacement for the original filter (no cold air mods), and the exhaust after the cat. converter can be modified. You can use lighter aftermarket wheels as long as they are factory size.
I personally would like stock class to get away from the DOT-R tires and go to street tires. Some of the newer sticky street tires are pretty close to the grip levels of the "racing" tires.
[This message has been edited by bse53 (edited 04-19-2012).]
thanks for your thoughts. Your clearly knowledgable on SCCA rules, and I see in your avatar it looks like you race- for my own interest, what do you race?
thanks for your thoughts. Your clearly knowledgable on SCCA rules, and I see in your avatar it looks like you race- for my own interest, what do you race?
I was driving a '93 Corvette in AS. I bought this Cadero (Fiero) from Arizona last year, which competes in XP. It has the 4.9 Cadillac engine and is a blast to drive. I'm in the process of going through the suspension for this season, since he quit driving it competitively four or five years ago.
Me and my other half talked about getting a C5 Vette, but I thought a fiero may be cheaper and just as fun, since we only had a budget of around $20k (and instead of buying a vette I opted to buy a SLK roadster for fun and a 88 fiero with another 8k budget to build it up). Then based on what I learn from building the fiero I can apply to building my next car which probably will be a vette or another camaro SS or similar. (I've already been a fiero fan and already had an 88 GT collectors car, bought the 88 formula to race- Sunroof and no other options, so it should be the lightest formula in existence which makes it as good of a competitor as possible!) . thanks again for your thoughts. I'll be ordering the kumhos, tracking down good stock wheel replacements, leaning towards Koni yellow shocks, getting springs that to the best of my ability meet stock requirements, and probably a rear sway... pads, brake lines, maybe a catch can are all also on my plan over the next month or so, so we'll see how I fair. Class dominator is an Mr2, and hoping to give him a nice little run for the money and see if I can make some headway on the PAX list. I was landing top 13 of 130 in my camaro on street tires, so I'm hoping I can improve with my best shot at a custom build. Keep me in the loop of your racing!
Good luck and have fun! Autocross is a great sport and inexpensive as far as motorsports is concerned.
ES is a tough class with the MR2 and the Miata. I admire Mazda for creating an everyman sports car, but I wouldn't want to drive one-- but they do handle.
I think the C5 is the best value in sports cars today. SCCA moved the C4 to BS (against the Solstice and S2000) and created a spot for the non-Z06 C5. You can pick up a Z51 C5 for $12-$15, add a couple thousand in shocks and tires and be very competitive in the class-- and be driving a V8.
With the ARB change I think even the C4 will be more competitive in BS.
I wish I knew how to subscribe to topics on this forum. (is that even possible?)
If I've read this thread correctly, the 15" wheels on the GT came staggered from the factory (7" in the rear and 6.5" in the front)? I assumed that they were 15x7" all around, even with the staggered 205/215 tires.
I may also be running my Fiero in ES at a few Cincy region events this season. I won't have much of a budget for tires or suspension work this season but I'll be very interested in seeing your car out there. Is this car you're building the black 88 formula you were selling on autocrossforum.com?
I wish I knew how to subscribe to topics on this forum. (is that even possible?)
If I've read this thread correctly, the 15" wheels on the GT came staggered from the factory (7" in the rear and 6.5" in the front)? I assumed that they were 15x7" all around, even with the staggered 205/215 tires.
I may also be running my Fiero in ES at a few Cincy region events this season. I won't have much of a budget for tires or suspension work this season but I'll be very interested in seeing your car out there. Is this car you're building the black 88 formula you were selling on autocrossforum.com?
15x6 fronts, 15x7 rears!
Subscribing is up top!
Is your name Matt? (aka Were you the guy running at the last event?) I didn't make it, but I'll be at the next one. The safety Steward has like 15 fieros and knows everything anyone could ever want to know about them. I've got another fiero guy I talk to who lives around here who I'm going to try to get out there too, but either way Shoot me an email and tell me when you'll be there and I'll try to bring my fiero to run with ya! ( 88FieroFan@ParanoidProductionDesigns.com )
Regarding the formula, I listed it, my fiance said she wanted it, so I sold the Formula to my Fiance (long story- I'll tell you in person, but she races too). Not sure what car I'll have at the next event (88 Formula, 88 GT, SLK, jetta, or Corvette) but if you have a Fiero, I'll track you down. I'm not going to have the new tires in time for the next race, and my old tires are pretty rock solid. I got yelled at at the last event for running wrecklessly (truth is I wasn't being reckless, I just ran all my events with a 2010 Camaro SS, had locked up the "Win" for the class so wanted to drive one of my other cars for fun, drove the fiero which handles MUCH differently than an F-body, and on hard tires, spins out in about 3 seconds, and so I spent a few runs doing multiple 360s...). I go back and foreth between racing the Formula and the GT. I wont know until I randomly decide, but they use the same wheels and tires and the such so I can go ahead and order that kind of stuff. (I was going to race the 88 GT, but its in pretty darn good factory shape, so everyone on the forum said don't butcher it... So The formula was it, but I'm 6'9" and have to drop in a sunroof and thats a PITA when the cars already been painted, plus I need to swap out seats and rebuild the motor and I just haven't gotten around to it... Moneys not really an object, time is, and so it sits! Its hard to find a manual formula though, so I guess it just becomes one of lifes challenges)
[This message has been edited by Arachnyd (edited 04-25-2012).]
What do you guys use for numbers? Have you tried static cling ones? My daughters are going to try to autocross our Fiero in KC region events in ESL and I need to be swapping numbers since they will be sharing the car. I'm used to using either magnetic numbers on my '82 CP Camaro or permanent numbers when I used to run a SP MGB (SP only because of a front sway bar change which would be legal in stock now). I will either go with static cling numbers if they work decently, or permanent numbers with a static cling or temporary vinyl one that we swap on and off between runs.
BTW, the person who said you can't swap springs is correct. Basically the only way something is allowed in stock is if the rules specifically say that it is allowed - otherwise it isn't.
What do you guys use for numbers? Have you tried static cling ones? My daughters are going to try to autocross our Fiero in KC region events in ESL and I need to be swapping numbers since they will be sharing the car. I'm used to using either magnetic numbers on my '82 CP Camaro or permanent numbers when I used to run a SP MGB (SP only because of a front sway bar change which would be legal in stock now). I will either go with static cling numbers if they work decently, or permanent numbers with a static cling or temporary vinyl one that we swap on and off between runs.
BTW, the person who said you can't swap springs is correct. Basically the only way something is allowed in stock is if the rules specifically say that it is allowed - otherwise it isn't.
Sort of- the rules said you have to use stock-spec, stock size, but that non-oem replacements are acceptable , as long as they are "direct stock replacements". There's certainly variability in non-oem replacements so you could use a non-oem replacement that is the stiffest of the options while maintaining stock dimensional spec, you just can't go get "performance" springs. I've even heard of other racers testing spring rates out of a box and picking the ones that fit their application best... but thats a slightly different issue!
Static cling doesnt seem to work well. I use removable vinyl. Held up for 2 season without a problem, and could have gone longer but I sold the car- and its cheap. removable vinyl is actually fully washable and re-usable. May be worth looking into it. that was on a 2 driver car too, so we just used the numbers 172 and 72, and removed the "1" between runs.
[This message has been edited by Arachnyd (edited 05-17-2012).]
The weight distribution of a Fiero is about 45/55, which means that the front wheel/tire should be 0.8 as wide as the rear. For 8" rear wheels, a 6.4" front would be ideal 8.5" rear -> 6.8" front 9" rear -> 7.2" front 9.5" rear -> 7.6" front 10" rear -> 8" front
