Stay tuned, I just bolted everything on tonight and will be pressure testing the system tomorrow. Shortly after I will be uploading pics of the project!
Stay tuned, I just bolted everything on tonight and will be pressure testing the system tomorrow. Shortly after I will be uploading pics of the project!
Don't you ever do this again. You upload pictures right away with your topic. It's tantamount to what the media does to try and get people to tune in to their up coming story, post an interesting story line or an obscure picture in hopes you'll stay tuned and not turn the channel to something else while they beat you over the head with commercials.
The radiator is common now, the fan application is not and may be a very useful modification depending on what the MISSING pictures reveal.
Don't you ever do this again. You upload pictures right away with your topic. It's tantamount to what the media does to try and get people to tune in to their up coming story, post an interesting story line or an obscure picture in hopes you'll stay tuned and not turn the channel to something else while they beat you over the head with commercials.
I cant understand why so many people seem to have cooling problems with their Fiero. My turbo 3.1 modified engine ran on a stock radiator for 100,000 miles without ever overheating. Also my 383 stroker V8 never got hot with a stock 4 cyl radiator. I run 160* stats in everything except very new cars. The v8 car didnt have AC. Both of my C4 Corvettes (L98s) used the same radiator as my V6 Fiero. I have a Champion 2 row radiator in my 67 Dodge 413 ci. No electric fan.
They're just words to express the disappointment. The high flow fan is what I'm interested in because the 3900's coolant flow design forces higher temps even with a cooler thermostat so when A/C use kicks in that will aggravate temps even more. I also plan on installing an air to liquid intercooler so there's an additional obstruction to air flow. I already have the 3 row champion radiator. To be honest, I wasn't happy with what I opened this thread up and didn't see.
Urg I wanted to see this! I put a radiator in last fall and I think It may be leaking again. Or maybe its the temperature change? (went from 35 degrees to 80 degrees in just a few days). there was a small puddle under it, but now it stopped... If I do need a new one I'm going to get one of these ones this time.
Geez, no wonder why they discontinued these cars. I didn't know there were so many grumpy owners out there! I've got to test the it! Hate, hate, hate.
Anyway, getting back to the meat and potatoes. So I pretty much followed Archie's instructions for the Champion 3 core radiator. I had to massage the support radiator brackets more than he did in order to get it to fit. Which had me removing and installing the radiator like 6 times to remove all of the interference problems. No prob though.
The Volvo Radiator Fan:
Purpose: Increase airflow through the radiator! Since I am running a thicker radiator with more cores it makes sense to increase the airflow since the air has a more difficult time passing through.
End Goals: Spend less than 250.00 on the complete radiator FAN system upgrade and get a significant increase in fan performance. Please keep in mind I already had the aluminum radiator and various upgrades like a front mounted battery and a CS130 alternator that is highly recommended considering the Amps of this Radiator Fan. I spent around $225.00 in the end.
Reason for the Volvo fan: No one seems to have an actual quote on the CFM of a stock Fiero fan to compare specs. That being said, everyone knows that it is an out dated design and could be improved. So, I started looking for aftermarket replacement parts. As it turns out a new aftermarket fans are in the neighborhood of 300.00 for around 3,000 CFM. Give or take. When searching the internet I ran across a page on the Lincoln Mark VIII fan. The CFM quotes are crazy on that Fan! Something like 4500 CFM, it's reliable, but is something like 18 inches in diameter and would not fit in the Fiero shroud. Then I found out that the motor that is in the Mark VIII fan is in a 3.8L Taurus fan and the diameter is smaller. So researched the diameter, it turned out to be 17" in and it had to be cut out of the shroud. Lame! I finally stumbled across someone who noticed that Volvos had fans with the same motors, but the fans were just a little shy of 16" in diameter. The Volvo fan specs are; 35 amps on hi, 28 amps on low, up to 80 amps on startup and pull 3400-3600CFM on high. It can be unbolted from the fan shroud and is smaller than the Fiero shroud diameter. The price for a used Volvo fan from a 92-98 S70, 940, 740 is $40.00 at pick and pull, leaving the rest for electronics, fittings etc. I went out and got one that day, it was held on with only 4 Torx bolts.
The relay/controller: The stock Fiero fan controller is completely out of the question, as this is a two speed fan and the amperage it draws. You can use the Volvo controller, it will work. I went with one from the Hollister road company. Reason being that the one from Hollister uses standard GM "type" relays and is easier to acquire parts if a failure occours. I guess you could always carry a spare Volvo relay also, but eh. Anyway though the Hollister relay kit was very well put together and I liked the soft start feature, it was $110.00 ish with the sensors. I bought it from: "http://www.hollisterroad.com/proddetail.asp?prod=LSXFanKit" . The power for the fan comes directly from the front mounted battery. I cut out the old relay and used the ACC wire to activate the new relay and the A/C wire to trip the high setting on the fan relay, just in case it gets hot.
The shroud mod: So I did trim the Volvo fan a bit to fit the contour of our fan shroud. I purchased some flat plastic sheets to use as mounting ears to go from the shroud to ears to fan. The tools I used to trim and fit were: drill, dremel, reciprocating saw and jig saw. In the end it turned out pretty nice, for fitment and looks. It is actually a little more sold when mounted than the stock shroud was. The overall distance the fan motor protrudes is a little less than the stock fan motor. I used stainless steel button top bolts, with nylon lock nuts.
The temperature switches: I had a 1.5" diameter piece of SS tubing cut to 5" length, flared at both ends, had two 3/8 NPT bungs and a bolt welded in/on. Then I placed the tubing inline between the drivers sise coolant pipe and the upper radiator inlet in the hose. The bolt was grounded to the frame to complete the temperature switch for the relay / controller circuit. I chose to use a low fan switch that kicked in at 175 deg and a high fan switch that kicks in at 185 deg. I may change this depending on what the result is in the end, we'll see.
The fan connector: I used the connector from the Ford Taurus to connect the fan to the relay / controller. It can handle the amperage, it’s easy to separate, it’s weatherproof, will not break easy and is cheap at pick and pull.
The fan to shroud gap: I used rubber foam adhesive backed weather seal from home depot for the tiny gap between the fan and the shroud. See picture for details. It stuck to the shroud very well and when the fan bolted in it was a tension fit between the two, ensuring that it would not be going anywhere. It was actually quite difficult getting it in there evenly due to the tight fit. Perfect!
Results of first test drive: The fan kicked in as it was supposed to and kept the temp amazingly low. This was my first test runand at night, mostly to burp the system. I’ll post more substantial numbers in the next days when I’m sure there are no leaks and all of the bubbles are out. I’m actually quite pleased at how stock looking and quiet the fan is. Obviously it has more flow, but doesn’t seem to make any more noise sue to the S-blades. Stay tuned!
[This message has been edited by 4LB21HP (edited 03-23-2012).]
Originally posted by 4LB21HP: Geez, no wonder why they discontinued these cars. I didn't know there were so many grumpy owners out there! I've got to test the it! Hate, hate, hate.
Grumpy, not hardly of the audience, but definately a tease on your part in such an important and useful discovery. This is an excellent write up and a modification I will definately consider performing. I think some more investigating may be in order regarding the high startup amperage unless it's not unreasonable in comparison to the stock motor. The 84 Fiero has a two speed fan if I recall correctly so that arrangement may be an option to consider.
In my case with add ons in the car already that draw additional amperage above stock demands, totaling in the double digit range its an important subject to address.
Fair nuff. Note: the fan relay / controller that I selected does soft start, basically it always momentarily kicks on the low speed before the high. So you never have that crazy initial startup amperage draw that is possible with the volvo relay. I would imagine it would be close to the amperage of the low speed. Thanks for the props!
Great write up...with pics... Thats a pretty elaborate setup. Were you having problems or just went so extreme to just be safe ? I work on exotic cars and racecars that arent nearly that complicated. Im the opposite...i prefer things as simple as possible, making it more reliable. Good water pump, hoses, belts and clean radiator usually is all thats needed in my experience. I even drove a retired X Nascar stock car around the street to car shows, even distant ones, that never got even got close to hot. It just had a belt fan and waterpump and a 3 row aluminum radiator with a 550 hp 358 ci race engine.
Hmmm, I wonder what kind of results we'd get by just doing a blade swap to the stock assembly and motor alone provided the motor could handle the increased flow from the additional blades.
So, I took the new setup out for a spin last night. I got all of the air out of the system and it worked perfectly. Both speeds of the fan kicked in when they were supposed to. After the road trip while sitting in my garage I disconnected both of the temperature switches and let the temp rise to 230, then turned on max AC, to kick in the Hi setting on the fan. In less than 5 minutes it was down to 170 Deg. This combo is geat! I will have to wait for another 100 or 110 Deg day this summer to really put the feet to the fire though. I have attached a schmatic of how I removed and hooked up the relay / controller I am using.
[This message has been edited by 4LB21HP (edited 04-22-2012).]
So I do not have a way to measure the CFM of a radiator fan, that being said I bought an anemometer (wind gauge in MPH) before I started this project to take readings for reference points. The places that were referenced for wind speed were the middle and drivers bottom corner on the front of the radiator and on the back side of the radiator it was at the center of the fan and the outside of the fan. Please see below for the numbers! It picked up over 10 mph of wind over the radiator on high. Also I have noticed that the high speed has not been on except for when I took it to the drag strip.
Stock fan setup: Front: Center 9.3 / Outside edge 5.9 Rear: Center 18.8 / Outside edge 17.8
Volvo: Front: Center 14.2 / Outside edge 11.4 Rear: Center 29.5 / Outside edge 27.2
Nice to see people explore other options on the fan, as food for thought. I don't quite understand why you were having issues with the using the stock fan coupled to the Champion 3 Core ?
I'm running the Champion with stock OEM fan/motor and have no issues cooling my beast.
Originally posted by rogergarrison: I cant understand why so many people seem to have cooling problems with their Fiero. My turbo 3.1 modified engine ran on a stock radiator for 100,000 miles without ever overheating. Also my 383 stroker V8 never got hot with a stock 4 cyl radiator. I run 160* stats in everything except very new cars. The v8 car didnt have AC. Both of my C4 Corvettes (L98s) used the same radiator as my V6 Fiero. I have a Champion 2 row radiator in my 67 Dodge 413 ci. No electric fan.
Well, if they're anything like my Fiero, they have a blown head gasket, so a new radiator probably wouldn't help.
The Champion 3-core sitting in my floor isn't for the 2.8 with blown head gasket though. Will cool the LS4 if I can ever get completed.
Could you please post the info, about how you mounted the radiator ??? if possibe take a couple of pics of the side of the filler cap Just today I was trying to mout mine....
Originally posted by 85LAMB: Could you please post the info, about how you mounted the radiator ??? if possibe take a couple of pics of the side of the filler cap Just today I was trying to mout mine....
Thanks in advance
It should mount in same as the stock one, with the only difference being that you need to ground out the slot for the fill neck to be a littler larger to fit it over the neck.
I did some digging and found out how Archie mounts it and the perfect pictures to show what to do..
thanks Archie
here it is in case some else needs it.
quote
Originally posted by Archie:
We installed one of these radiators in a Fiero today.
First of all, when we got it we compared the size, the cores & the fit to the big radiator that I've been having made for several years.
We have not yet tested it extensively BUT I HAVE HIGH CONFIDENCE that it is at least equal to the radiators I've been having made for years.
This high confidence & the fact that this radiator is much cheaper than the ones I've been having made, means that this will become my recommended radiator for future swaps.
OK, here's what notes I have on the installation.
As I said, size, thickness & cores are very comparable to the rads I've been using for years.
We mounted the rad into the stock Fiero upper & lower mounts.
Here are the modifications we had to make.
In this pic. the rad is upside down to show that the rubber bumpers in the bottom & top Fiero brackets have to be modified just slightly.
The stock rubber is on the left, the corners need to be cut a little as in the rubber on the right.
Then you can put them right back into the stock locations....
Because the new radiator has a more squared off shape than the stock radiator, the top Fiero mounting bracket had to be opened up a little bit around that radiator cap area.....
Over on the drivers side the Fiero top mount is a bit tight on that corner but we did get it to m,ount without doing any cutting.
Also, please note that on the bottom Fiero rad mount, the corners are a bit tight but we didn't have to modify them.
Also, watch the bolts that hold on the condenser coil, they were a bit too long on our installation & we shortened them a little.
Also watch the bolts that hold the rad fan on to make sure they don't damage the core.
When installed, it looks pretty good.
I'm impressed.
Archie
[This message has been edited by 85LAMB (edited 04-24-2012).]
Nice project, well thought out and certainly better than stock. I do not have problems with overheating on my 3800SC but the 3 row Champion radiator is going in this month. My radiator is 25 years old and still working but why tempt fate?
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Nice project, well thought out and certainly better than stock. I do not have problems with overheating on my 3800SC but the 3 row Champion radiator is going in this month. My radiator is 25 years old and still working but why tempt fate?
I totally agree. Dont mess with whats already working fine. Its always my motto. Like I said I also go straight to the simplest solutions...at least first.
I totally agree. Dont mess with whats already working fine. Its always my motto. Like I said I also go straight to the simplest solutions...at least first.
" If its not broke, fix it till it is !! "
I still run the stock fiero radiator and completely satisfied with it's performance. If I had to replace it though, I would look into better options like this.
Here is an information source that will help with modifications like this. Select the catalogs drop down menu and then E catalog lite and enter the vehicle; http://www.haydenauto.com/N...%20Fans/Content.aspx
If listed it will give you the free flow and CFM through the radiator. I found this info while researching a nearly new 2 speed cooling fan I have from an ~2002 PT Cruiser complete with relays. Some are aware that my 3 core radiator failed and since my motor is boosted, the cooler I can keep it within reason and the quicker I can get it to the cooler temps the better, not to mention the benefit to A/C performance in the Summer, particularly since the thicker radiator is going to impede flow.
The PT Cruiser fan also appears it will not need much effort to adapt having the following measurements: H 17.4" x W 20.75" x depth 3.5". 4 holes through the upper and lower border of the shroud may be all it needs for mounting. The spec reads 14" for the blade but it actually measures a little more than 15" blade tip to blade tip and the rim diameter a little more than 16" and has 8 blades. I'll post pictures when I attempt an install with the replacement radiator in another thread.
The Fiero specs are not listed but I highly doubt its cooling fan flows more than the 1990 3.1L Camaro 14" cooling fan at 1050 CFM through the radiator. The 16" fan for the camaro moves 1150 CFM through the radiator and so does the cooling fan in this thread from the Volvo according to the Hayden site. My guess for the 3000+ CFM references for it, the Lincoln and the Taurus is that it is combined free flow for dual fans as most full size cars come with dual fans now and a 1150 CFM is the highest flow I found in the small amount of searching I did.
These are Haden fans so the specs would only serve as an approximate reference compared to OE and only where they list a single fan quantity in vehicles known to have one fan. The Fiero uses a different size motor apparently for the non A/C cars 85 and up according to Autozone and they list the same motor (w/AC) across several cars including the Vette up to about 89 so the fan blade itself is the major deciding factor for flow.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 10-24-2012).]
Just an update to an older thread, for future readers, that might want another viewpoint on Amp Draw of the Volvo Fan. I picked up a Volvo Fan at the Pick and Pull yesterday from a 940 Station Wagon. I tested it when I got home, and it pulled 12.7 amps on Low, and 20.7 amps on high- much less than I thought it might be. AS a comparison, the stock fan on my '87 was pulling 14.7 A . There is a lot of initial amp surge at startup, 43A for the low speed, and 54 A for the High Speed. It does move a lot of air My gut feel is that the low speed moves more air than the stock fan ( just by airflow feel and sound). High speed is a definite increase over stock. I will be installing in mine in a future build.
------------------ '87 GT in process, including GA / Seville brakes, Poly Suspension, '95 3800 Series 1 SC ( 225 hp ) T460e.
I have looked at the 3 layer radiators for my car, but I am worried about the lines for the auto-tranny.. Has anyone mounted one to an auto setup? I worry in that if it cools the tranny fluid too much or little??
Running the tranny fluid too cold is as bad as running it too hot if my thinking. What is the running temp on the modified radiators then, and how does it affect the side cooler of the tranny lines?
This was an excellent write up of the process by the way! Lots of detail and thought in the process!.. Impressive!
Trans temps will pretty much equal water temps, once everything is up to temperature. Water temps will be controlled by what thermostat you have installed. A 180 Thermostat should result in a 180-190 water temp, unless OAT or other factors cause the temps to rise above that setting. From what I have read, these radiators do a very good job of cooling the trans. I know they do a great job of cooling the engine.
------------------ '87 GT in process, including GA / Seville brakes, Poly Suspension, '95 3800 Series 1 SC ( 225 hp ) 4t60e.
I've got to test the it! Hate, hate, hate.
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