OK I fitted the ECM and the new harness (through the bulkhead):
I needed to make an aluminium support to hold the upper part of the central consol. It also stops the ECM from ratteling around (with a bit of foam padding) - not that it really needed it as the ECM only just fits Inside the enclosure!
With the central consol now back in place, pretty much all the interior is back together.
As for the engine, new oïl pump fitted:
And the whole thing bolted back up. I used 2 gaskets and a machined down oïl pump cover in order to get at least 0.8mm clearance for the timing chain - what clearance are your 3800 double roller chains set too?
And here is the engine (minus the sump, flywheel and the upper inlet):
That's all for now! Rafe
[This message has been edited by Englishrafe (edited 04-24-2013).]
It's a kind of universal fit that needed just a little heat from a hot air gun to make it bend round for the Fiero front bumper. I haven't put the car back down on its wheels, so I don't really know what it is going to look like - I hope it gets rid of a bit of the "upwards pointiness" that GT front has!
Hi everybody, It's been a while since I added something to this topic.... ...but that doesn't mean that things were left unfinished:
The Fiero is finished and has been running for about 1 year now. The car is awsome but will need brake upgrades one day! Here I am using it at a trackday:
Hello everyone, Again, it's been a long time since my last post. (Even managed to mess up/lose my pseudo - now having to use a new username.)
Fiero was working fine untill some overheating issues at the track in 2017.
Here are some photos of certain trackdays:
Fiero's been sitting mostly in the garage this year - house painting and repairs taking priority etc...
Still goes for a spin round the french countryside once in a while.
Here's the problem:
For a while, the car has been playing up with hesitations and sluggish accelerations. Flooring throttle seems to stall, back off to 1/2 throttle and away it pulls, but with roughness. I've just got hold of an aldl Bluetooth interface to see what's going on - I'm running a '95 PCM with my series 2 3800 turbo. Tune by Darthfiero.
The codes are: 325 ESC failure 131 O2 sensor low 171 fuel trim lean 122 TPS voltage low 123 TPS voltage high
Is the ESC code for the ESC or just the knock sensors?
The O2 code may just be a cracked exhaust manifold giving a lean reading. Need to fix that this winter!
The TPS? No idea? The part is new.
Any ideas please to get back to good accelerations?
The codes are defined as: 325 ESC failure Knock sensor malfunction on bank one 131 O2 sensor low Lean condition or exhaust leak 171 fuel trim lean Could be a vacuum leak, low fuel pressure or insufficient fuel for the boost used 122 TPS voltage low Voltage expected by the PCM is low Indicates TPS going below .2V or less 123 TPS voltage high Voltage expected by the PCM is high Going above 4.54 Volts To get both high and low TPS voltages, its probably a defective TPS
Do the checks and the problem will be found. BTW this was a very nice build. With a bit of diagnostic work it should work fine
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Thanks for the advice. I'll look at the knock sensor first. (Bank 1? Damn thing is hidden above my intercooler and oil cooler!) Thanks also for the complement on my build👍
Thanks for the advice. I'll look at the knock sensor first. (Bank 1? Damn thing is hidden above my intercooler and oil cooler!) Thanks also for the complement on my build👍
Unless you moved it, bank one O2 sensor is located on the rear side manifold. For the last few years I have been using Denso sensors as thats what GM used on the 3800. Just be aware that lean codes do not always indicate a bad sensor. Lean exhaust is caused by one of two things: An excess of air to the engine or insufficient fuel. Could be bad (or weak fuel pump), or a vacuum leak.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
i like the oil cooler idea, any chance you might have the part numbers off that part from the Trans Sport? great build, unless i missed something i think we need an engine shot! i am building an 84 Indy Turbo myself
For the engine photos, I don't have many available - we had to move house at the time and the Fiero was "thrown together" in order to move the car. I wasn't really documenting the build after a time. It just had to get finished and running! Here are a few however that I've managed to find:
This was the weekend just before the move when I (we) worked all day to drop the body back down and haul the car away. Just before handing in the house keys the monday morning!
More recently, this is a photo taken by a reporter at a track day:
I realise that I don't have any photos of the complete motor with its turbo? Just some photos of the hatch in the modified firewall giving me acces to the turbo etc...
Concerning US parts numbers, I haven't a clue? As I said, the oil filter block with the oil lines input/output came off a series 1 3800 in a '95 Transport. Its where my PCM came from as well. (We don't have alot of wreakers with american cars here in France.)
I saw today that a subject on the aluminium radiators came back from the dead, rather like this thread. Here is my experience with radiators:
While on the track back in 2017 my radiator finally gave out - or more so the radiator cap. Coolant spayed out while racing and the engine got hot. Luckily not too catastophic and I managed to get back to the pits. Once stopped, I opened the bonnet to this mess:
I topped up with coolant, greased the radiator cap seals to help seal the 30 year old rubber seals a little bit better and limped the car home gently. No further overheating during the 60 or so km to the house.
Once home, a stripdown of the radiator area showed up some rather "crusty" supports:
The radiator, while still fonctionnal, was 30 years old and rather corroded on the bottom tubes. As well, the trackday overheating had disloged all the "crud" and rust inside these tubes - I wasn't sure that the lower tubes would not start to weep once flushed etc... … so, out with the old and in with the new 3-row all aluminium radiator:
The lower radiator support was well rusted on its foward facing lip. Since no Fieros are in the scrap yards here, E-bay France and/or Germany don't have any secondhand spares and paying the shipping from the US costs double the overpriced used part on E-bay US, I decided to repair what I have: (Something that I do pretty much all the time with this car!) You can see the new strip welded along the front edge.
Fixed this rusty front lip extension support at the same time:
"Ajusting" the upper radiator support (it's never a bolt on fix!), fitting a new fan motor (30 years old as well) and generally cleaning and painting all bits necessary and here is (was) the result:
So there it is. I've been running the 3-row radiator for 1 year now with no issues.
My opinion? It doesn't cool a whole lot better than a stock radiator. Which is to say that the stock radiator was quite capable of cooling my 3800 turbo, until the radiator cap gave out. Yes, a new cap costs little in comparaison to the complete 3-row. But I had other rust issues to treat as well, so I went the extra wallet emptying to have a better looking radiator setup.
I found this photo the other day, taken while repairing the flywheel one time:
In fact, it was the unfortunate time most of the flywheel bolts gave out. You know the how it goes; "I'll use another sort of bolt for my new flywheel and clutch setup." "What could possibly go wrong in not using OEM flywheel bolts?" "It takes too long to get new bolts shipped out from the USA anyway." "I'm in a hurry to get all of this finished!"
Moral of the story - don't do it!
I was damn lucky not to grunge up my crank:
The flywheel boltholes looked pretty knackered once disassembled. I wasn't sure if the flywheel would go again?
However, after careful repairs with aluminium inserts it seemed OK: (Not got any photos of how to reline/make up inserts. All I remember was that it was rather tiresome adjusting and flaring in the inserts made out of 1mm walled aluminium tube.)
So here is another engine shot, from the front this time - just before sliding the whole drivetrain under the car again:
As said before, don't skip on the small components of your builds. It doesn't pay!!
Regards, Rafe
PS: Yes it worked. Proper bolts and all. The flywheel has stayed in place, no worries for 2 or 3 years now.
Back to present day problems. The knock sensor issue. This weekend I replaced the two knock sensors (after waiting 3 weeks for the spares to arrive from the USA - no import tax this time! Must be in inverse proportion to how quick the parts are shipped! The French customs must think that if he waited this long to get his parts, we're not going to sting him on top of the purchase price and shipping costs. Poor guy has had his car in the garage for a month now! Lets be nice!!)
OK. Started by testing (again) the old knock sensors:
One was at infinite resistance - can't be good!
And the other one was at 100kohm - again, not good!
New parts: (Nice.)
As said in my previous posts, the front knock sensor is a pain to access, and you've got to be quick to change over the part while being rained on with coolant! Messy!
Once both sensors changed, its time to test again:
And both sensors are at 3.87kohm / 3.88kohm. I'm calling this one a win!
Reconnect the leads and it's all good:
The car is back on its wheels and drives. Accelerations are good. No more fault codes and no more orange SES light blinking away at you! I guess the other codes were incidental codes caused by the engine ignition retard and resulting partial limp mode.
I've been running the car for a few weeks now with the new knock sensors and while WOT accelerations are good, it seems to hesitate or stumble at partial throttle once warmed up after driving for 20 or 30 minutes. Rather like a slight misfire?
I ran the codes with my new bluetooth dongle thingy and got the following:
341 intermittent cam signal 361 EST line not toggling 131 engine O2 sensor low 171 fuel trim lean
For the last two codes (131 and 171) I have noticed that I have a very slighty cracked exhaust manifold. This could be giving a slight lean condition in the exhaust. This will be one of the winter jobs to take it off and weld it up (again!) - probably sleeve and reinforce the tube prone to cracking.
For the 341, I have tested insitu the cam sensor: It is at 6.6V on its signal which then drops to 0.001V when the cam button/magnet/interupter passes the sensor. It seems to work as it should, but maybe the sensor and/or cam button are weak? Any ideas from the 3800 gurus out there would be much appreciated ?
For the 361 code, I havn't found any decent advice when I google the code. Is it related with the 341?
Hi everyone, Been a while since I updated. Finaly got round to putting the battery up front:
I did some other stuff like change the cam sensor + magnet, adjust the camber allround (slotted upper arms on the front etc...) plus a bunch of other little things that I couldn't be bothered to photographe!
However, I have been using the car quite alot for shows, trackdays and (quite rare in my part of France) my first 2 day drag race! I havn't done a drag race in over 10 years, and the last time was at Santa Pod where L only made 2 runs, with not very good times! This time, it was nearly "no limits" - you could run just about every 10minites if you lined up after each pass. Here is a picture of the Fiero just in front of a rocket car (I'm driving through the paddock):
So what you really want to know is "how quick I went?" Well faster off the line than your BMW M3, that's for sure:
In fact, I consistantly ran very low 13's, and pretty much smashed most of the other cars there! Apart from one Civic type R with all the expensive goodies. He would catch up about halfway through and fly past at 10mph faster than me at the 1/4 mile. He cooked his clutch however trying to hold the power at 25/30+psi!! Here is a photo mashup with my best time:
Yes! 12.994!
Last picture for this post - going back very happy!
Hello everyone and Merry Christmas Holidays! Just a few photos and words concerning a little mod that I have done recently.
I have fitted a small extractor fan to help exit the heat in the engine bay and help cool my coil packs. I know this has been done loads of times before me, but I just like to share my setup which was inspired from my summertime experiences at the only drag race in western France this year.
While lined up for the start I was behind this BMW engine powered Opel, and I remarked how his cooling fans were constantly on, even at idle:
Now certainly his car was a fully race prepped car and the fans were on a separate switched circuit. But it got me thinking how to do this without hacking the Fiero circuits to bits and adding too many switches in the cabin etc...
My solution was to use two relays and the existing trunk fan circuit. Here's my super circuit diagram: (Sorry, no computer aided drawing!)
Basically, I just take the trunk fan switching via the PCM or whatever and add a fuse and another power relay to run the fan. However, I wanted to go one step further to "force" this fan and the others (main cooling fan, my oil cooler fan) to run constantly if I wanted at a race day. But I still wanted "normal" functionning just when driving on the road. Now because the trunk fan circuit is negative switching and when the car is turned off, the switching is contantly grounded, it needed a second relay and a couple of switches. In effect, I can choose to run this engine compartment fan with the others or not at all. But the best thing is that I can force all the fans to run constantly with the flick of a switch. (If you ground the green/white wire of the trunk fan circuit, the main cooling fan switches on.) I've kept the switches in the engine compartment so that I don't forget to switch back to "normal" mode after the race while I'm checking under the decklid for oïl leaks, coolant blowouts, turbo disintergration, thrown rods etc...Ha Ha!. And to keep all the wiring extras just by the new fan in case I need to unplug my mess in a hurry without having to rip open my dashboard on the side of the road.
Here is the system fonctionning (grill removed for the photo):
The switches:
Now just a last photo of an end of summer meeting in order to keep our spirits up during the winter. (And yes I'm more low to the ground than the Porsche!)
I have my doubts your flywheel issue had anything to do with the bolts, there are many documented cases of aluminum flywheels having "Creep" problems which is the tendency of the aluminum, under pressure of the bolts, to compress, and flow out from under the bolts, causing the bolts to appear to loosen. Many guys who have run the aluminum flywheels have ended up replacing them with iron after having problems, and using the same spec bolts without problem.
it looks like those were ARP flywheel bolts, I guarantee they are higher quality than stock bolts.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
Back in my youth we always used washers on any bolts that were against anything aluminum on small block Chevy motors. Steel hex bolt heads will chew into aluminum intake manifolds, valve covers, timing covers or water pumps.
I thing that most aluminum flywheel problems are caused by this same problem. I have had a Spec aluminum flywheel on my 3800 swap for about 6 years and 7000 miles. I don't abuse it but I don't baby it either, no problems.
The bolt holes in the Spec flywheel are oversized so I sleeved the bolt holes with steel tube that was a slight press fit and just slightly larger ID than the bolts.
I got some Grade 9 1" bolts and washers from McMaster Carr. I think using the 11 ft lbs + 50 degrees method is a good way to go. GM uses this spec to get the proper clamp load on the flywheel to crank joint. At 11 ft lbs there isn't much effect from friction and using the 50 degree additional rotation all the bolts should be very close in tensile load making the flywheel to crank joint pretty close to what GM intended it to be.
I found the manufacturer specs on the bolts and they give a torque spec on their Grade 9 5/16-18 bolts of 36 ft lbs with a thick nut and 14 ft lbs with a waxed locknut. I used a spacer the same thickness as the Spec flywheel with a new bolt, washer and standard Grade 8 nut and tightened it with a bending beam torque wrench. The torque increased to about 44 ft lbs and remained at that point as I kept turning until the bolt broke. I repeated this four times with new bolts and nuts with the same result. Based on a 75% load factor that gives a torque of 33 ft lbs for these bolts with the Grade 8 nuts at the same thickness as the Spec flywheel.
Next I used a new bolt, washer and nut with the flywheel spacer and tightened it to 130 in lbs. I put a torque angle gauge between the torque wrench and the bolt, with the wrench set to 32 ft lbs, and tightened it. The torque wrench clicked over close to 50 degrees every time, sometimes a few degrees short of 50 and sometimes a little over 50. Based on this experiment I think the GM specs with some Loctite would be the best way to install the Spec flywheel with these Grade 9 bolts and washers.
Nice job! And I'm glad you are enjoying your proyect at a road course, the best place for a Fiero! I really like the color of our car! What green is it?
For the flywheel, yes it probably was the aluminium that compressed. That's why I sleeved the holes and pressed and fettled out the sleeve to take up where the flywheel metal had changed shape. Afterwards, I just put the stock bolts that have a larger head and therefore a larger contact surface. Better load spreading! It's held together since.
For the car colour, it's two shades of metalic maserati green. I don't remember the references, but they're colours from the 1970s. I remember seeing this kind of car when I was young:
[This message has been edited by Frenchrafe (edited 12-26-2019).]
What wheel/tire combo are you using? I know that info might be in here somewhere but I did not notice it. Car looks well planted in the track day pics.
------------------ 86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo rear SLA suspension QA1 coilovers on tube arms
What wheel/tire combo are you using? I know that info might be in here somewhere but I did not notice it. Car looks well planted in the track day pics.
Original 15" lace wheels with Toyo Proxes 225/50 up front and 235/50 on the rear.
I would like to put 235/60s on the rear to fill out the wheel well a little better, but it's hard to find 15 inch track day tyres in 60 section? Yoko used to make some but I haven't seen them in ages (available in Europe). I might cough up the import taxes one day and order Mickey Thomson drag radials for the rear…. ...one day!
Pour La Fiera: pas de problème. Je suis content que ça t'avait plu!
Original 15" lace wheels with Toyo Proxes 225/50 up front and 235/50 on the rear.
I would like to put 235/60s on the rear to fill out the wheel well a little better, but it's hard to find 15 inch track day tyres in 60 section? Yoko used to make some but I haven't seen them in ages (available in Europe). I might cough up the import taxes one day and order Mickey Thomson drag radials for the rear…. ...one day!
Pour La Fiera: pas de problème. Je suis content que ça t'avait plu!
Je l'aime!
That's tha the same tires I have on my Fiero! Bon travail!
Keep the 50's, if you get 60's the car will have a delay when you turn.
Hello everyone, Just got back from the "contrôle technique" (inspection, MOT etc...) with a clean bill of health for the Fiero. Photo as we picked up the car:
For those who are interested, my weights and brake readings from today:
And the same from 2 years ago, before the "Seville" rear brake upgrade:
Even though the front brakes are a little uneven (probably pads), my overall braking effeciency is up 13%! Which is good for balancing the car in harsh track conditions. We can see that the battery relocation took 5kg off the rear also.
Anyway, enough said. I'm just happy that the Fiero passed with no problems! For those who want to see just an ordinary day out for the Fiero, here's a link to last weeks cars-n-coffee meet up:
Hello....I have two questions; 1) What do people over there think of the Fiero? And 2) Which way is that deck-lid fan blowing? Up/out or down/in...?
Your car is sharp and has impressive performance...I like the color, too!
Mostly, they don't even know the Fiero. It's often called out as a gen 3 Firebird off all things! The papers above for the "contrôle technique" state '87 Pontiac Firebird, because there isn't anything else in the data base !!
Young kids seem to like the car, but once their parents know it's a Fiero, then it's just bad comments on under powered Lambo/Fierri replicas. Only when I'm on track do I get a little, albeit begrudging respect.
For the fan, it's up-n-out. Same as the intercooler/oil cooler fan. I try to draw the air in from underneath.
Thanks for the last comment and the colour is a two tone Maserati metalic green.
I wanted to say; I have for years wanted to get someone with money (Obviously not me) to build a Fiero with an LS4/400 hp and some suspension tuning to lap a couple of tracks and lay some really good times down......I also thought of adding a vacuum system; Two fans positioned under the deck vents that would only come on during braking and cornering, shutting down on the straights, run by AGM batteries that would be recharged on the straights......A Modern take on the Chaparral vacuum car....
My fans are just for air circulation/cooling. I believe Chaperelle cars used a second engine to turn those turbines. (No longer just fans.) As well, look at the aero: it wouldn't resemble a Fiero anymore 😲
Regards, Rafe
PS: My car pollutes twice as much now. It must be faster! 😉@pmbrunelle
New "old" problem: I took the Fiero out for a New Years Day run yesterday and after 45 minutes, it threw a code/SES and started to run rough.
I pulled over and opened the engine lid and was horrified to see my headers glowing bright red! The body of the O2 sensor was glowing red as well.
(Sorry no pictures as I was aiming the fire extinguisher at the engine while it cooled down! This is a 3800 S2 with the turbo hung on the rear manifold by the way - for those who don't want to read all my build thread.)
Anyway, this "overheating" problem is not new and I've often had the code relating to "cam sensor" and "EST line not toggling". I even had a fire start one day because of a split driveshaft boot spewing grease onto the manifold and turbo.
For me, these codes are just secondary symtoms and maybe the real reason is the engine is running very lean while cruising? Good thing for emmissions and fuel economy but bad thing for exhaust gas temps and turbo setup slowing the exhaust flow! The heat builds up in the manifolds.
Anyone else with a turbo setup had the exhaust glowing cherry red? Possible fixes?
