Thanks, although I don't really understand. I'm not sure which retainer you're starting with and which way is up.
My bigger problem now is the leak. I'm really not up for replacing all the lines right now. Besides, TFS doesn't have them and I can't even put it in my cart because it dosen't recognize my password and hasn't sent the reset message yet. I see Autozone has straight lines and I have benders, but what ends do I need and how long of a line?
Yes it's over a year since my last post on this thread, and yes, it's been over a year since I worked on the brakes. Today I got the problem line loose from the body back to the rear axle. As I write this it's leaking at the rear wheel pretty aggressively, but I got an M14 x 1.5 bolt, which happens to be an oil drain plug available at Ace as part number 58518-F. It looks big, but hopefully, since it's M14 x 1.5, it will fit and stop the fluid from running out.
The clamp hardware that holds the line in place came off pretty easily, although the hangers themselves are pretty weak. They look like something that can be matched pretty easily.
The line runs behind (above) the coolant tube. Those clamps (that hold the coolant tube) didn't fare so well. The front one is available from TFS, but the bigger back one - not so much. Naturally that one is largely useless. Maybe two front ones could be used, but the tube may end up loose or held in place by something improvised. Maybe I should have left it alone and run the new line below the coolant tube, but I want the line where it should be and not hanging loose as the PO left it on my GT.
I'm planning to replace just this line for now largely because I'm not sure how to deal with the hardware that attaches the line to the wheel well where the hose connects. The PO on the GT also ran into this problem, with the result that the lines are not secured to the wheel wells at all. I remember reading someone's thread where they mentioned using stainless steel for this hardware, but I don't understand where they got them.
I don't know if I saved the system from getting air into the rear brakes, but the plug fits.
The disconnected line goes to the rear brakes, the copper thing is the connection block under the master cylinder, and the bolt on the bottom is the M14 x 1.5 oil drain plug from Ace.
Here is one of the clips I would like to replace. The screws or nuts that held them in place all survived and can easily be replaced or even reused.
There is probably something at the hardware store or auto parts store, anybody know for sure?
[This message has been edited by 85 SE VIN 9 (edited 07-01-2013).]
Still on this problem. Over the summer disconnected the long line in front, but until today it was still hanging from the rear connection block. While it was easy enough to cut the line off with tin snips, no amount of impact wrench or breaker bar work have budged the rest of it. It looks like I'll need a new connection block and therefore I'll also have to do all the other rear lines. It just keeps getting more complicated! Where do I get a connection block anyway?
really? what would they call it? now that I think about it someone mentioned getting a new connection block, but I can't remember where that was on the forum. I haven't found one on TFS, JCWhitney, O'Reilly's, or rockauto. But sometimes it takes a few passes.
When I get this done I'm going to make a list of all the hardware you need to do these things. Everyone says replace the lines, replace the hoses, etc., but there are lots of things you need to do it right. The little brackets that connect the hard lines and the hoses have at least two pieces. There are a lot of items like plugs and clips that make the job easier, not to mention feasible.
Also bending the long line is a pretty big deal. There are at least three bends to undo. My GT has new lines, but none of these things, the lines just hang under the car and the hoses aren't attached to the body at all, just the hard lines. Lots of rattling and who knows what could happen.
Go to the plumbing section of the hardware store and get a roll of strapping or pipe clamps for water lines. if you want to get real testicle find an old inner tube and cut a peace the right size to fit in around the tubing before you put the clamp on to prevent the clamp from chafing the tubing.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 10-07-2013).]
If you mean the clips that hold the line to the car, yeah, that's what I did. They even come with rubber. Menard's has them for less. It might also be possible to use a bigger one or two for the coolant tubes. I have lots of those now. I even got a full set of coolant tube hangers from TFS. I also got basic right angle body attachments (Russel brake parts, JC Whitney, Summit Racing, and another racing site), but they're mighty expensive.
The problem is it now appears the only way I'm going to complete this project is to cut out all the rear lines and replace the connection block because so far there doesn't seem to be any way to get the long line connector out. The project has thus grown exponentially, again. If I could get the connector out and the other lines hold the car would presumably be driveable in a matter of an hour or so. I also have the hoses and the clips for the connection to the hard lines are available at O'Reily's down the street, so if I can find a connection block it might be done in a favorable afternoon.
By connection block I mean the block of brass with three brake line connections and a threaded hole to attach it to the body. I don't think a hardware store would have that. It could probably be made by anyone with access to machine tools, but that's not me, nor is it a small project considering my time line.
You might have some luck looking in a junk yard. Look for rear wheel drive differencials. They have a 3way connection block. You will have to find a fitting to adapt where the brake attaches though. Most are held on with a hollow bolt for the vent hose. Have replaced many metal brake lines. 95% of the time I can save the connection blocks. I tend to reuse the fittings and flare the lines myself. For the lines and fittings that break off, I first drill the line out of the middle, being carefull not to drill past the lines metal. Once you are there you can see the drill chips change. When the line is removed from inside the broken fitting soak it with rust penetrant. With a Torx bit just a little larger than the diameter off the hole, tap it into the fitting and back out. Unlike an extracter, the Torx bit does not expand the fitting. I have had very good success with this approach. I have also used this approach on broken bleeders (yep even aluminum calipers). You have to be even more carefull when drilling the center of the bleeder out. The idea is to drill down to the tapered seat of the bleeder and stop. This releaves the tension on the threads. Without releaving the tension, penetrating oil will never get to the side of the threads that are sticking. A tip to see if you bleeder is going to break. Find a drill bit that just fits into the hole (shank /smooth end in) when you start turning with a wrench, if the bit gets tight, the bleeder is starting to twist off. The inside expands against the bit. Fieros use ISO (bubble)flare and metric fittings. Most parts stores don't carry the fittings. Flaring tools which make double flares can be used to make ISO flares. Just don't make the final step in the double flare and add 1/2 mm more line into the line holder than normal. have done this at least 100 times with no leaks. I have been seeing a slew of late 90s fwd full size GM cars rusting out the lines. The fittings are different sizes for different locations at the ABS unit, master cylinder and rear proportioning/metering valves. Always have to reuse fittings. Last one was about 70 feet of line. Recently a rep from one of our jobbers stopped buy the shop. Napa or Papa, don't remember which. They are starting to sell new type of lines. I like 2 features of these. First they don't crimp/flatten out on very small radius bends. Even when you use your fingers. There are layers in the line that keep then from crimping. Also they are made of an alloy that won't rust. A little more than standard line but no where near the cost of ready made stainless. I'll try to see if I can find the brochure from work and get the manufacture.
[This message has been edited by cmechmann (edited 10-08-2013).]
Thank you cmechmann. I'm beginning to appreciate that it's in dealing with rust and corrosion issues like these that you guys earn your money. I'm about to go out and try the drill out the line and use a torx bit trick. That sounds very likely to work. Earlier someone suggested grinding the lip off the rotor to get it off. Wouldn't have thought of that and it did work.
I think Autozone has those lines. They're green plastic coated nickel alloy. You can bend them by hand and they're actually stronger than steel or stainless steel. Autozone also sells the right fittings. I already have the stainless lines kit from TFS. If I can get this fitting out I should be able to drive. It's the if not that will require replacing the other lines and connection block. The gravel guard on the TFS stainless lines allows them to be bent by hand more or less. I have a bender and the line is pretty much ready to go except for removing the old fitting.
Used five drill bits until brass came out, but torx bit just turned.
Now the fitting is so mangled it wasn't possible to get a 14mm or 9/16" socket on it. I do have some Lisle easyouts, but they weren't with me. I did some cleaning and painting with the remaining light.
Man. Sorry. I have gotten fittings out that way even when the heads had broken off. When I said the drill chips change, is just when you get to the end of the fitting.. Drilling SLOWLY. The chips start to get dirty again. The metal changes from all steel to a mix. Should see a little copper from the flared part of the line. If you hit brass you might have deformed the seat. Are you attempting this in car? What penetrant are you using? For that kind of stuff I almost exclusively use PB Blaster. Does a good job of breaking up the electrolysis between the steel and brass. You have to give it time to wick up the threads. If you have a propane torch, heat the brass a little, then re hit with the penetrant. This will help it creep into very small spots. Clean with brake clean right before trying to remove to keep it from acting as a lube. Did you use six point sockets on the fitting head before trying the Torx? 5 bits? The fitting, line, and brass block should have been way softer than your bits. Unless they were HF titanium. If not, you might have been drilling too fast(drill speed), heating up the bits. If that is the case you could try another bit, slowly, to just remove the now hardened surface you made inside the fitting. Torx or extractor bits would just slip because they wouldn't get a good bite on the hard surface. Run into that a lot with broken exhaust manifold bolts. But still have around a 75% success rate with the Torx bit trick even on them. On those, they don't come out because the heat has galled the threads. Mostly on aluminum heads. 5 bits to get to the size hole you want? I could see that, but it would be overkill. I don't mean to ask stupid questions, but I'm curious. Other then that, the only thing I can think that would make it so hard is if(being the right side) battery acid vapors working on the brass.
[This message has been edited by cmechmann (edited 10-14-2013).]
Yeah, it's in the car. The idea is to minimize the repair. I'm trying to install just the long line, since that's the only one leaking so far. The problem with putting a lot of force on the fitting is it turns the block, bending the other two lines and even bending the fender the block is attached to.
I used all those bits to avoid the drilling the seat, etc. problems. I only got brass on the last one. It might be that I haven't gotten all the line yet. Not only is this on the car, it's in the parking lot and I'm on my back.
I did use PB blaster, but I don't want to go crazy with it because I already have new calipers and pads on. I don' t want to get PB blaster inside the now open system or on the outside rubber parts like the hoses, which I have but would rather not have to replace. I used both impact and regular 14mm and a 9/16" sockets. I think they're 6 point.
I'm not all that bummed out about this. I did get the whole area painted with rusty metal primer. Next week I'll try another bit and a bigger torx. It might be it's just between sizes right now. The first one was pretty loose. Not much pounding required. It's also not in a good location for pounding.
It would be a pretty big project, but getting a block of brass and drilling and tapping it to accept all the new lines might be a more practical way to go. More than likely I could find all the taps and bits and a piece of brass. Then the whole job would be complete and not just waiting for the next leak to happen.
Trying to do that is a pita. pain in the If you can find a piece of bar and put it on the opposite side of the body and use a pair of large vise grips to hold the block still might help. Sandwiching the metal of the body/space frame between the bar and block. If you do still have some sort of head to the fitting left, you could then hammer on the next size down socket on the head. Seized bolts, screws, lines, fittings will take a LITTLE twisting, but we are human. We bear on it to break it loose and don't realize how much force we put on it. The problem lies when what happens when it does cut loose. It cuts loose, we have a tiny moment of reaction time before we let back off. By that time it binds up again and because of the initial force we break something. Before we had a chance to stop, back up and work it back and forth to loosen it. Knuckles hurt just thinking about it. Getting it into a vise is the best approach. If you are going to try to get the other lines off the block. When they are that rusted I normally won't even try a line wrench on the line. I take a good pair of vise grips and clamp down on the fitting and put a wrench on the block. Kind of like turning the lamp instead of the bulb. In your case. You have one off. The bottom line looks like it would come off easiest. You can unbolt the block and spin it off the last line. Only loosen about 1/16 of a turn. The line might break off if you turn more. After cracking the fitting loose, with penetrant, wait, then, carefully start working the fitting back and forth a little until the line starts to free up in the fitting. If they are that corroded that they won't come off they really need to be replaced anyway. The surprise of a rusted line cutting loose and the pedal going to the floor and not pumping up isn't worth leaving it on. Getting the block in a more controllable spot will help greatly.
[This message has been edited by cmechmann (edited 10-15-2013).]
Originally posted by Raydar: Originally posted by 85 SE VIN 9: ... Where do I get a connection block anyway? I wouldn't be surprised if you found it at a hardware store, or maybe even Home Depot.
1. Never use plumbing parts on brakes. Might hold a day or a few months but plumbing brass is not make to brake pressure. Plumbing fittings can fail without any warning.
2. I doubt that any hardware outlet has Bubble flair fittings. Can try auto parts that carries brake lines.
If you meant the clips that hold up the line then they are common.
TFS site said line kit doesn't have that. Check inlinetube.com
To reuse one from a junker. Cut old lines and remove. Go Home. Heat the T to loosen the nuts. DON'T use too much heat. Overheat can damage the fitting.
If you can... Heatsink the nut w/ big wrench when heating the T. I used this Stanley wrench as heatsink for that. It holds tight and "wicks" heat from nut. (Clean rust etc for best results.)
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Seems as though our shop see the crap that nearby shops don't want to screw with. 2 weeks ago did lines on a Mazda B4000/Ranger. From ABS back. Lines rotted out between the tank and the frame. About 4 pounds of leaves came out with them.FUN. Today. Helped a coworker get the old lines out of a 2005 yes 2005 Expedition. Used by the state Mass Transit Authority. Looked like the whole underneath from transmission crossover to the rear diif had been parked in high grass. Lines rotted from drivers door back. Looked worse than yours (rust wise). Odd the front lines were coated. Looked new. The lines travel mostly between the body and frame, but weave over, inside, and outside. with 3 way connection block in back. All fittings had to be saved. He will be putting it back together tomorrow. Cracked lines from ABS first. At the back, removed the hose from block, cut the 2 metal lines removed block removed and cleaned up fittings. This type of work we try to remove the line as careful as possible so we can use as a pattern to bend and return them to their original spot. All mine are returned to the looms. As Ogre stated you have to be careful of what hardware you use. The ratings for brake line are high. Newer, are using smaller diameter lines and higher pressures. So that is going to be moved up by DOT if it hasn't been already. Building hardware, even commercial, are not rated for that.
Duly noted. Plan now is to try one more time to remove stuck fitting, then remove connection block even if that means cutting the other lines, take it inside, and remove fittings using vice and other implements of destruction. I figure new connection blocks are available somewhere, but it doesn't look like it will be possible to avoid replacing the other lines. I do have them and it should be done. I even have Russell body connectors (683942), but they differ from the ones on the car, which look solid. I will need connection clips, but those are available at O'Reily's for cheap and I think Autozone for not much more. I also have new hoses and extra copper washers. Of course it's now cold and rainy, so getting this done will get more and more difficult.
