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Remote Battery - Don't use the frame as a return path! by phonedawgz
Started on: 08-02-2011 08:17 AM
Replies: 34 (2436 views)
Last post by: EvilSqueezles on 09-04-2013 11:33 AM
phonedawgz
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Report this Post08-02-2011 08:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
For those of you doing engine swaps or just relocating the battery. You might be tempted to use the frame as the negative wire that connects to your battery.

DON"T DO IT!

Most people know that the positive battery cable runs directly to the starter and the negative battery cable runs to the engine block. There is one or multiple straps that connect the engine block to the body frame. When moving the battery up front it seems like a way to save some money by using the body frame as part of the battery cable. The frame surely is larger than the battery cable, plus the block is grounded to the frame already. Why not just run a large cable from the battery up front to the frame, and then a large cable from the frame to the engine block in back? That should work right?

Yes it will work if everything is perfect, and the cables you are using are large enough to support the load.

HOWEVER

If the cable between the frame and engine block ever comes loose, gets corroded, or is inadvertently removed - You have just lost your main negative battery cable. There are still wires that run between the engine and the frame however. Some of those are in your wiring harness. On C500, pin A2 is a ground wire. That wire connects to one of the ground lugs at the transmission.So if your heavy duty cable between the engine block and the frame comes loose, that small wire inside your engine harness will then be the return path of you starter motor. Being 20 times too small, that wire will heat up to red hot. The insulation will fall off the wire and the red hot copper will start cutting into the insulation on the rest of the wires of your harness.

I have had several donor 2.8 harnesses come to me with the wire that runs from A2-C500 to the ground lug at the transmission with the insulation totally melted off. If you are lucky it will just destroy your engine harness. If you are unlucky, it will burn up your car. If you are really unlucky it might kill you, burn down your garage, burn down your house and kill your family also.

If your block to frame strap is corroding you may never know this is happening till it is too late.

GM designed the negative battery cable to run from the Battery to the Block for a reason. Changing it can lead to some severe problems.
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1fatcat
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Report this Post08-02-2011 08:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 1fatcatSend a Private Message to 1fatcatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Good tip! Thanks!
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theogre
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Report this Post08-02-2011 09:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yup.... 2 ends is easier to check corrosion/etc than 4+ ends. Especially when some ends are hidden by spare tire and other things.

Use right end on battery and not simple rings and adapters to eliminate connections.
Example... Cable uses ring end then goes to top/side terminal adapter.

Even at same wire gage, using "welding cable" carries current better than normal battery cable in long wires. Has to do welding cable use smaller wire to make cable.

Any connector can, likely will, corrode and cause resistance in circuit. Dropping 100-200 amp to start your engine... any resistance will heat up and cause damage. Damage adds up over time and often doesn't show up as burn wires and other problems until it's too late.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)


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jwrape
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Report this Post08-02-2011 10:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jwrapeSend a Private Message to jwrapeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That makes good sense.

I have a bad grounding issue anyways so I added an additional standard Negative Engine ground from the negative terminal on the Batt to the block to fix the issue.

But if I ever relocate my battery I will run both cables.

------------------
86 Fiero 2M4 Silver, and 86 GT

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post08-02-2011 10:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It should also be noted that copper wire is a far better conductor than steel so you will be introducing a poorer conducting path by using the frame to bring the ground all the way to the engine area.

------------------
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swanthog
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Report this Post08-02-2011 10:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for swanthogClick Here to Email swanthogSend a Private Message to swanthogEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I ran a positive only battery cable for my battery relocation and made the mistake of thinking the frame ground would work.
The car would start but struggled during cranking just as though the battery was weak. I went 'round and 'round replacing batteries and a starter before I decided to add the negative cable back to the engine block. The car cranks fine now. I am fortunate that there is no wiring damage.

------------------

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ltlfrari
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Report this Post08-02-2011 11:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ltlfrariClick Here to visit ltlfrari's HomePageClick Here to Email ltlfrariSend a Private Message to ltlfrariEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I always WELD a ground stud to the strut tower and take an earth (#2 welding cable) from the engine to that stud. Then I WELD a stud on the front cross member and take a #2 welding cable to the -ve terminal on the battery. I have never had a problem cranking.

I can see your point though about the ground strap but how would the original GM design change things? It's been a long time since I moved the battery so this could be wrong but from what I can recall, the original earth had a thick cable (to the block?) and there was also a thinner black wire from the battery connector to an earth on the frame. If the main cable broke, wouldn't you still be in the same situation, with everything trying to go through harness wires and that one small wire back to the battery negative?
If am am wrong and there's only a block to bat neg wire then I can see that if that broke the whole car would be dead, which is I guess, better than it going up in flames!

Can anyone confirm how the original battery negative connect is wired/connected to the car?

------------------
Dave

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1fatcat
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Report this Post08-02-2011 12:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 1fatcatSend a Private Message to 1fatcatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Generally, there is one heavy cable from battery ground to block, and one small cable from battery ground to chassis/body. The small one is intended to run things like lights, radio, horn, ect. Pretty much everything but the starter. The big cable is grounding the starter and any ignition components or sensors that need it. The starter can draw around 300 amps, so that is why it needs such a heavy cable. The vehicles electronics that ground to the body will likely never consume more than 60 amps all together, so the ground doesn't need to be as big for those components.
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Report this Post08-02-2011 03:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DLCLK87GTSend a Private Message to DLCLK87GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When I did my 87GT I was going to use just the frame because it's 100% rust free and figured it would be fine. But after I posted some questions the usual 1 wire vs 2 debate broke out and while everybody was arguing, I figured it was just as easy to run 2 cables as 1 and at $1.12 a foot from Home Depot for the wire (2 gauge copper, Automotive grade/oil/gas resistant) why take a chance with a ground issue for $12. Ran them through the center console and added a shut off switch too. The whole setup including the Norms box was less than $100. My only complaint is both wires are black and my OCD wants 1 red & 1 black. I never thought about what you posted and I'm glad i spent the extra couple bucks, thanks for the info. + for you...oh wait, already gave you one way back when.
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Report this Post08-02-2011 03:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I agree that the chassis should not be the *only* ground path. But I do believe that it should be one of the ground paths. Because having all the chassis ground paths run through the engine cradle and into the engine block is going to add resistance to the circuit.

Ideally, you would have redundant ground paths, both to the engine block and the chassis... as well as between the engine block and chassis.
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theogre
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Report this Post08-02-2011 05:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ltlfrari:

I always WELD a ground stud to the strut tower and take an earth (#2 welding cable) from the engine to that stud. Then I WELD a stud on the front cross member and take a #2 welding cable to the -ve terminal on the battery. I have never had a problem cranking.

Can anyone confirm how the original battery negative connect is wired/connected to the car?



Front cross member is poor ground spot. Front member is bolted and all parts are covered in rust protection before parts installed. Rust protection make poor electrical proprieties.

You ground likely has resistance. Forget Ohms... Need voltage drop test. Measure volt between block and negative battery terminal when starting car. (Yes, likely need to make long leads for meter.) Read more then 1-1.5 volt, need to rewire.

GM battery ground... Big cables to block. Small wire, 14-16 ga I think, to frame.
See any service manual.

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 08-02-2011).]

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Report this Post08-02-2011 05:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jake_DragonSend a Private Message to Jake_DragonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I haven't installed mine yet but I planed on installing a cable from the battery to the frame as well as one going to the block.
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Report this Post08-03-2011 12:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hercimer01Send a Private Message to hercimer01Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The ground path going through you frame will also lead to corrosion problems. The atoms exchange protons and electrons through the conductor actually altering the molecular make up. Galvanic corrosion, Hum, cable or frame? Corrosion is not the disappearance or evaporation of compounds as most people think. It is the return of compounds to its' natural state helped along by external forces. I don't want my car returning to its natural elements, therefore I will be using cables. And yes i have spent to much time in class.

[This message has been edited by hercimer01 (edited 08-03-2011).]

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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post08-03-2011 09:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
It should also be noted that copper wire is a far better conductor than steel so you will be introducing a poorer conducting path by using the frame to bring the ground all the way to the engine area.


Specific conductance in indeed superior with the copper, but with the frame you have massive amounts of conduction area working in your favour. As noted in the original post, such a setup will work fine when everything is in good shape. Well worth the weight saving in my opinion.

 
quote
Originally posted by hercimer01:
The ground path going through you frame will also lead to corrosion problems. The atoms exchange protons and electrons through the conductor actually altering the molecular make up. Galvanic corrosion, Hum, cable or frame? Corrosion is not the disappearance or evaporation of compounds as most people think. It is the return of compounds to its' natural state helped along by external forces. I don't want my car returning to its natural elements, therefore I will be using cables. And yes i have spent to much time in class.


I slather grease over exposed metal like that where I make electrical connections. Paint is another option. Seal out the electrolyte.
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theogre
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Report this Post08-13-2011 10:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I forgot to add...
And if/when you have weak ground then coolant system act like a ground cable. Bad enough for grounding small things but grounding path for starter is same as using an arc welding to the coolant system.

Using cable to emulate GM battery grounds (Big for block-battery, small for frame-battery) eliminates extra cable ends, where to put studs, etc...

For more see http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/118049.html#p8

 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
I slather grease over exposed metal like that where I make electrical connections. Paint is another option. Seal out the electrolyte.


Grease is ok but paint is not. Paint only hides problem most times. Any small corrosion will cause big problems and any gaps in the paint will attract corrosion.
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Report this Post08-13-2011 06:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trotterlgClick Here to Email trotterlgSend a Private Message to trotterlgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I know of a Jag XKE that chewed up 2 rear ends in short order, problem was a broken ground strap engine to frame, the starter current path ended up being through the gears and bearings in the rear end, so every time it was started it put little arc diviots into the bearings and gears which caused a failure in short order. Same thing could happen with any driveline. Larry
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Report this Post08-14-2011 04:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have seen an under dash fire from this kind of meld down, in a truck.
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Report this Post08-14-2011 06:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for topcatClick Here to Email topcatSend a Private Message to topcatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When I did my battery relocation, I initially had the ground running to the front cross member. The Fiero was hard to start, and if the car sat for more than a few days it would not start without a jump.

So I made some changes. I added two more grounds. I ran one ground from the same bolt location that I had the initial ground on the front cross member to the engine block, and then I ran a ground from the engine block to the battery. I also upgraded the positive cable to a 2-0 AWG wire. The engine spins fast and effortlessly now.
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Report this Post08-16-2011 05:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for buildamonsterClick Here to Email buildamonsterSend a Private Message to buildamonsterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have had mine grounded to the frame for 11 years with no problems. It's all in how you do it. If you weld a good grounding stud and use heavy welding wire you will not have any problems.
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Report this Post09-18-2012 06:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cyrus88Send a Private Message to cyrus88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hercimer01:

. . . The atoms exchange protons . . .



Hmm. I never realized nuclear fission and/or fusion took place in the fiero frame
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Report this Post09-18-2012 07:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Purple86GTClick Here to Email Purple86GTSend a Private Message to Purple86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cyrus88:


Hmm. I never realized nuclear fission and/or fusion took place in the fiero frame


The key word is EXCHANGE. Not SPLIT (FISSION) or FUSE (FUSION)


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Report this Post09-18-2012 09:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SCCAFieroClick Here to Email SCCAFieroSend a Private Message to SCCAFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

Yes it will work if everything is perfect, and the cables you are using are large enough to support the load.



I am not going to argue with anyone, and I realize this thread is a year old already but, just to point out some issues.

The entire argument for not using the frame is based on poor maintenance and an incorrect relocation in the first place. Neither of those are good reasons to condemn a good installation through the frame.

I always thought electricity flows from negative to positive. The "return" path is actually the positive cable. How many systems on the car are NOT grounded through the frame? Not too many I can think of.

Running a heavy cable 8+/- feet is unnecessary when you can run a couple extra 6 inch properly sized wires and do the exact same thing. The success of grounding by running a long ground cable or through the frame depends entirely on how it was done. If you have cranking problems without a direct battery to engine ground cable, something is wrong with your relocation. There is more to a battery relocation than just moving the battery and guessing at wire sizes. Part of the process in the first place is installing additional engine to frame grounds to avoid the problems stated.

Making an electrical connection to the front cross member or rear cradle makes no sense to me. How many electrical components are grounded to either of them, none I believe. Just because you have a nut or bolt you can attach to does not make a good ground. There is also no reason to weld anything to make a good ground as well. There are much easier places to make solid ground connections through existing hardware.


Edit to add that the comment that "the block is grounded to the frame already" is a scary thought. That thought is the source of the problem. The block is really only "grounded" through the battery cable (excluding the tiny dedicated circuit grounds mentioned in his post) which is why you NEED supplemental grounds when doing a relocation. The block is isolated from the frame by rubber mounts. It is absolutely NOT "already" grounded.

[This message has been edited by SCCAFiero (edited 09-18-2012).]

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Report this Post09-18-2012 11:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 86FieroCentPaClick Here to Email 86FieroCentPaSend a Private Message to 86FieroCentPaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Purple86GT:


The key word is EXCHANGE. Not SPLIT (FISSION) or FUSE (FUSION)



Those protons aren't doing anything. Corrosion/oxidation has to do with electron state and bonding with other elements. If steel (Iron) lost a proton, it would become magnesium. Which would be a neat trick indeed.

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Report this Post09-18-2012 01:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by SCCAFiero:

I am not going to argue with anyone, and I realize this thread is a year old already but, just to point out some issues.

The entire argument for not using the frame is based on poor maintenance and an incorrect relocation in the first place. Neither of those are good reasons to condemn a good installation through the frame.



Thank you.

My '09 Challenger had the battery in the trunk. It also got its ground through the body/frame.

My Fiero is wired the same way, and has caused me no difficulties whatsoever. (I would venture to say that it's grounded better than the Challenger was.)
The negative battery cable (which also contains a knife switch in case the hot wire shorts out) is connected to one of the brake booster studs.
I have at least two heavy ground cables from the engine to the frame. The right/rear head is grounded to one of the holes where a dog bone bolt went through, and another ground is connected between a bell housing bolt and the left side hinge box.
My engine spins like a dremel tool when I hit the key.
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Report this Post09-18-2012 01:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Also keep in mind that most of the chassis electrical system is grounded to the chassis. So the chassis HAS to be grounded to the battery, to complete the circuit.

IMO, you should have at least 2 ground straps, one from chassis to battery, and one from engine block to battery. A third one, from engine block to chassis, would be a good idea too.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 09-18-2012).]

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Report this Post09-18-2012 02:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Ang84IndySend a Private Message to Ang84IndyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DLCLK87GT:

Ran them through the center console and added a shut off switch too. The whole setup including the Norms box was less than $100. .


I'll be doing a battery relocation in the future, where did you run the cables through the front bulkhead?
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Report this Post09-18-2012 06:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DooberSend a Private Message to DooberEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by SCCAFiero:
I always thought electricity flows from negative to positive. The "return" path is actually the positive cable. How many systems on the car are NOT grounded through the frame? Not too many I can think of.

...the comment that "the block is grounded to the frame already" is a scary thought.


I had a professor in an electronics class years ago that explained it both ways where electron flow is concerned, I just don't remember how he worded it. It kind of made sense either way though... with the positive side gaining electrons in the end.

Indeed on the block/frame ground. I've had more than one discussion with people over the internet about this, they swore their voltage issues were due to a ground that went to the body (this was on a GM G-Body forum). They thought the better the ground from the body to the battery, the better their voltage would be.

I had to explain to them first that while a good body/ground connection is crucial, and would definitely help with their interior lighting, gauges, electronics, etc., it would make no difference on the alternator output.

I then explained the electrical path of the charging system, and so long as the ignition system had power (carbed setup), and you were able to crank the engine somehow, the alternator would take over and provide the same voltage whether there was a car or not. He finally checked what I said to check (wound up being a bad ground, either battery cable or alternator case I don't remember which), he saw the light.

 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

Also keep in mind that most of the chassis electrical system is grounded to the chassis. So the chassis HAS to be grounded to the battery, to complete the circuit.

IMO, you should have at least 2 ground straps, one from chassis to battery, and one from engine block to battery. A third one, from engine block to chassis, would be a good idea too.



I agree. For my '78 Malibu I actually bought a short 4ga. cable from Autozone and bolted it to the firewall. Some probably know this already but the braided ground straps are used instead of cables from the engine to firewall because of vibration... the straps are better suited than your commonplace battery cable.
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Report this Post09-18-2012 09:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cyrus88Send a Private Message to cyrus88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Purple86GT:


The key word is EXCHANGE. Not SPLIT (FISSION) or FUSE (FUSION)



The only way to exchange protons between atoms is through fission and fusion, unless there is some new Star Trek physics going on that I'm not aware of.
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Report this Post09-19-2012 12:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by SCCAFiero:
The entire argument for not using the frame is based on poor maintenance and an incorrect relocation in the first place. Neither of those are good reasons to condemn a good installation through the frame.

maintenance is not only problem.

Every connection increase voltage drop in that circuit and you do not want to increase voltage drop in the starter circuit.
0.1 to 0.3 volt per connection is common on the best connections, 0.5 to 1 volt or more drop per connection is very likely to be results in DIY installs. Just one weak connection and the starter sees a low/dead battery.

Every connector voltage drop add in series... Typical OE example, .1 battery plus + .2 starter plus + .3 starter ground + .2 block/battery ground + .1 battery minus = .9 total in good starter circuit. Add more connections and starter sees weak battery even when battery is new and full charge. Many remote batteries have problem eating starter think bad starter etc but really has iffy wiring eating starters...

Remember electric motors are rated in Watts. Watts are the constant and when volts are low then amps must go up.
ACdelco says Fiero OE Starter is 1.5kw
1500w/12.6v=119amp (starter / Full charge battery and no volt drops =)
1500w/11.6v=129.3amp, +10.3A more for losing 1 volt
1500w/10.6v=141.5amp, +22.5A more for losing 2 volts

One bad connection, low battery charge, can be a big problem. More amps means more starter heat to deal with. This heat will degrade the winding insulation inside the starter motor and eventually kill it. More see my Cave, Electric Motors

To add to this... Anything goes wrong in the frame ground plan then the coolant will likely be energized trying to find an easy path to the battery, especially at starting the engine time. Energize coolant will eat rubber hoses from the inside, killed the aluminum radiator and more. Don't think so? ask Gates etc hose makers. Bad wiring is a major problem for coolant parts makers. Or just Google coolant electrolysis
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SCCAFiero
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Report this Post09-19-2012 09:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SCCAFieroClick Here to Email SCCAFieroSend a Private Message to SCCAFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by theogre:

maintenance is not only problem.

Every connection increase voltage drop in that circuit and you do not want to increase voltage drop in the starter circuit.
0.1 to 0.3 volt per connection is common on the best connections, 0.5 to 1 volt or more drop per connection is very likely to be results in DIY installs. Just one weak connection and the starter sees a low/dead battery.

Every connector voltage drop add in series... Typical OE example, .1 battery plus + .2 starter plus + .3 starter ground + .2 block/battery ground + .1 battery minus = .9 total in good starter circuit. Add more connections and starter sees weak battery even when battery is new and full charge. Many remote batteries have problem eating starter think bad starter etc but really has iffy wiring eating starters...


I agree there can be a voltage drop across connections, but .5 to 1 volt for DIY connections being "very likely" is a stretch ,and I would not consider .9v drop total to be a "good" starter circuit.

A good relocation will have more than one current path for grounds which essentially cuts any resistance losses by half (or more) and therefore eliminates the voltage drop. Additional ground connections also eliminates the maintenance problem as you can put them in readily visible locations where they can be inspected easily. A few inches of 10 gauge wire can carry as much current as several feet of larger wire.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/084322.html The first post shows a couple photos of how I added a couple extra grounds and how simple this can be. That is a small Honda battery that had no problem starting my 2.8 even with oil temps a street car would never see. Also notice I did not just throw the +cable in there. It is wrapped in loom, then rubber hose where it passed through metal under any kind of stress. I remove the paint under all connections as well as between connections such as the dogbone braces where the bracket connect to each other. Everything gets wire brushed before the connection and sprayed with CRC or WD40 or something similar that can penetrate the wire insulation and stop corrosion at the connections before it starts.

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Purple86GT
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Report this Post09-19-2012 11:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Purple86GTClick Here to Email Purple86GTSend a Private Message to Purple86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by cyrus88:


The only way to exchange protons between atoms is through fission and fusion, unless there is some new Star Trek physics going on that I'm not aware of.


Nope, electrolysis, element decay, etc.. remember, you are EXCHANGING atoms. Not splitting or fusing the atom.

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normsf
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Report this Post09-19-2012 11:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for normsfClick Here to visit normsf's HomePageClick Here to Email normsfSend a Private Message to normsfEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by SCCAFiero:


I agree there can be a voltage drop across connections, but .5 to 1 volt for DIY connections being "very likely" is a stretch ,and I would not consider .9v drop total to be a "good" starter circuit.

A good relocation will have more than one current path for grounds which essentially cuts any resistance losses by half (or more) and therefore eliminates the voltage drop. Additional ground connections also eliminates the maintenance problem as you can put them in readily visible locations where they can be inspected easily. A few inches of 10 gauge wire can carry as much current as several feet of larger wire.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/084322.html The first post shows a couple photos of how I added a couple extra grounds and how simple this can be. That is a small Honda battery that had no problem starting my 2.8 even with oil temps a street car would never see. Also notice I did not just throw the +cable in there. It is wrapped in loom, then rubber hose where it passed through metal under any kind of stress. I remove the paint under all connections as well as between connections such as the dogbone braces where the bracket connect to each other. Everything gets wire brushed before the connection and sprayed with CRC or WD40 or something similar that can penetrate the wire insulation and stop corrosion at the connections before it starts.


Great write up and correct. Ive sold hundreds of front battery relocation kits, its all how you do the ground and I use the smaller #4 welding guage wire for the positive run. #2 welding wire is great no doubt, costs more but if you really want a bigger wire get overhead tower wire that should do it, LOl. Just kidding! I always run the ground from the engine to the main chassis not the cradle with clean metal and wheel bearing grease over them. Being making these kits since 1985. Thanks Norm http://normsfiberglass.com/fiero.html

------------------
Norm Vandermee

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carbon
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Report this Post05-14-2013 09:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Purple86GT:
Nope, electrolysis, element decay, etc.. remember, you are EXCHANGING atoms. Not splitting or fusing the atom.


And you are exchanging terms(atoms, protons, etc...).

Common explanations of electricity show + as the source and - as the sink. The fact is an element gains a negative charge from having an excess of electrons and positive charge by a lack of electrons (holes). When you connect a circuit the flow of electrons is from the negatively charged side to the holes on the positively charged side. The only thing moving is electrons, no protons or neutrons, you're not changing elements here...

The fact that things are the reverse of what they seem should not faze anyone, truly because all that matters is volume of current and magnitude of voltage. You can design a system either way, Ford used to wire a 6V positive ground system way back in the day on their tractors... The current industry standard is a negative ground and as long as you understand wire current capacity, proper insulation, and good connection properties, you'll be fine.

Bah... stupid search, making me reply to an old thread...

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 09-04-2013).]

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cyrus88
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Report this Post09-04-2013 01:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cyrus88Send a Private Message to cyrus88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Purple86GT:


Nope, electrolysis, element decay, etc.. remember, you are EXCHANGING atoms. Not splitting or fusing the atom.


I can't believe I just saw this reply after all this time, but I have no idea what you're talking about.

Electrolysis has nothing to do with element decay, which in turn has nothing to do with exchange of atoms. Element decay is a fission process, aka the spontaneous splitting of atoms (heavier element decays to lighter element, or elements, along with other subatomic particles). Electrolysis has to do with . . . .

Okay I won't try to explain anymore because by now you've probably figured all this out correctly.
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EvilSqueezles
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Report this Post09-04-2013 11:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for EvilSqueezlesClick Here to Email EvilSqueezlesSend a Private Message to EvilSqueezlesEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


I'm so lost.

[This message has been edited by EvilSqueezles (edited 09-04-2013).]

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