Pennock's Fiero Forum
  Technical Discussion & Questions
  3400 LNJ Swap (build thread) (Page 3)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version

This topic is 4 pages long:  1   2   3   4 
Previous Page | Next Page
next newest topic | next oldest topic
3400 LNJ Swap (build thread) by KaijuSenso
Started on: 09-05-2010 10:45 PM
Replies: 130 (13512 views)
Last post by: KaijuSenso on 06-22-2014 11:45 AM
Will
Member
Posts: 13449
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 234
Rate this member

Report this Post07-20-2011 10:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by KaijuSenso:



This is obviously the shock that was on the car. Oddly enough it's the same adjustable Koni that I'm putting back in. I do wonder though how old it is and can see the future with how it will weather. Still seems to work ok though which is good.

I cut the spring to get it out but notice the top is rusted in place. Also sprayed it with PB Blaster and it'll have a date with a hammer and/or pry bar later this week.


The Koni custom shop may be able to fix that up for you for a reasonable price.

There's a rubber pad between the spring and the upper seat. The spring's likely just scraping the tapered bump-stop pillar. It should come out fairly easily.
IP: Logged
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post07-21-2011 01:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I already have the new Koni shocks, they were a Christmas present a few years ago. Headed to the shop now to get a few good hours of work in. I'll take a picture of the clutch pedal.
IP: Logged
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post07-21-2011 10:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Got the front end mostly disassembled. Just need to take off that tie rod.





Now here are a few pictures of my clutch pedal. Does it look normal to anyone who's seen a bent pedal?



[This message has been edited by KaijuSenso (edited 06-20-2014).]

IP: Logged
Will
Member
Posts: 13449
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 234
Rate this member

Report this Post07-22-2011 10:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by KaijuSenso:




At this point, why not just drop the crossmember?
IP: Logged
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post07-22-2011 03:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm trying to not get into that groove. "oh well while this is apart why not just do this, and that, and this..." it never ends sometimes so I'm sticking with a plan for now so I can drive my Fiero again! The plan is not to touch the steering and brakes yet.

Does anyone have any thoughts on that clutch pedal?
IP: Logged
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post08-01-2011 08:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


Finally got the front suspension 90% installed. Just need to put on the new front sway bar (looking for my end links...) but I'm going to have to weld the support to the frame because I broke 2 of the bolt heads off... Also have a tie rod issue (in another thread) and just a few loose ends to bolt up (brake line) then I can set it down on all 4's again...well after I fix the rear cradle bushings.

Then I'll finally hook up the transmission shift cables and see if it'll move. Won't be driving anywhere without an alignment and upper motor mount fabricated though.





I hope all the shocks/struts are on the same setting because I didn't quite figure out how to adjust them yet.

[This message has been edited by KaijuSenso (edited 06-20-2014).]

IP: Logged
Will
Member
Posts: 13449
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 234
Rate this member

Report this Post08-01-2011 09:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by KaijuSenso:

Finally got the front suspension 90% installed. Just need to put on the new front sway bar (looking for my end links...)

I hope all the shocks/struts are on the same setting because I didn't quite figure out how to adjust them yet.


End links: http://rodneydickman.com/ca...th=45&products_id=98

You have to compress the fronts all the way, futz with them to engage the adjuster tangs, then turn the upper half relative to the lower half. It's not really very easy.
I've never used anything but full stiff for the rear struts. The fronts end up between 1/2 and 1 turn from full soft.
IP: Logged
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post08-01-2011 09:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


End links: http://rodneydickman.com/ca...th=45&products_id=98

You have to compress the fronts all the way, futz with them to engage the adjuster tangs, then turn the upper half relative to the lower half. It's not really very easy.
I've never used anything but full stiff for the rear struts. The fronts end up between 1/2 and 1 turn from full soft.


Ah ok, but do you think they should all be equal stiffness out of the box? And I should have the end link, just need to locate them in my piles of Fiero stuff. I found the rear end links but the fronts weren't packaged with them like I thought. Need to check the box the Sway Bars came in tomorrow.
IP: Logged
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post08-04-2011 07:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well good and bad news for today. I got all the cradle mounts fixed, tie rod on, and set her down on all 4's. I love how low it sits now! But geeze these shift cables and exhaust are a hassle. Francis did a good job moving the Y pipe around for the second fitting but sadly he moved it too close to the bracket that holds the cables in. I needed to dent the exhaust in around there and ended up cracking the middle of the bracket in between the two shift cables. Bummer but I got it in finally, used some heat wrap around where the cable is too close to the Y pipe. Moving left and right is a lot tougher then it used to be, probably because of the weird bends in the cable now.

I also messed with the slave cylinder a bit noticing it's heat shield was touching the exhaust now too. Then decided to start it up and see if it would go into gear. Pedal felt pretty weak, even with pumping. Checked the fluid, bled it a few times with no air so decided to try it anyway. Pushed the pedal down, car wouldn't crank. Ok well I must not have the clutch far enough to engage the release. Pushed down again but a little harder and...pshhh...great, just my luck. I blew the hydraulic line about right in the middle. Luckily it wasn't my new slave or master but still, The Fiero Store has a new stainless pre bend line for $160...ouch...

At this rate the car won't be drivable this year
IP: Logged
hookdonspeed
Member
Posts: 7979
From: baltimore, md
Registered: May 2008


Feedback score:    (9)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 131
Rate this member

Report this Post08-04-2011 09:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hookdonspeedClick Here to visit hookdonspeed's HomePageClick Here to Email hookdonspeedSend a Private Message to hookdonspeedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by KaijuSenso:
At this rate the car won't be drivable this year


i feel your pain.
IP: Logged
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post08-15-2011 09:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
All righty so I've been working on a few things here and there. First, my car got pushed out of the "body shop" to make room now that it had all 4 wheels again so I put on the deck lid to keep the rain away.



It did of course require a notch which was super simple and easy with a cut off wheel.



After that I started installing my brand new Stainless Steel clutch hydraulic line from the Fiero Store. It's pretty pricey but hopefully is worth it. I think all those bends in a single line would have been a huge PITA for me. I got it all bled out but it still doesn't feel right at all. There was half a pedal of no resistance and I found out the slave cylinder push rod had a lot of play in it (back and forth in the direction that it normally moves). It would just fall right out of the divot on the clutch arm. Ordered a cheap slave cylinder to compare with mine in case the internals were shot. I plan on getting a new one from Rodney over winter.

Then on Saturday my boss decided to go to the races at Norwalk so we were free to work on our own cars in the shop. I know a lot of people drop their Fieros a lot lower then 1" but I have to say it's new and interesting to me to learn to deal with "too low" of a car. The first problem was I couldn't slide the arms of the 2 post lift underneath, they hit the pinch weld. So I got it roughly in place and lifted the sides of the car on the jack point enough to swing the front arms under, then went to jack up the rear of the car to swing the back arms under. Well our full size floor jack just barely doesn't fit under the center of the cradle, so I had to find our small aluminum jack. Then of course the wheels had to be removed to get the arms under the rear of the car. Either way I finally got the car on the lift!



Next I proceeded to bolt up the new front sway bar. This is the stiffer bar that came in my "racing" suspension kit from the Fiero Store. I'm pretty sure they did not send me the front end links so I ordered them from Rodney Dickman.



That was fairly straight forward so I moved to the rear of the car. Lowered it down onto the tallest jackstands we have to have the suspension at normal driving stance and started lining everything up and drilling holes. It's actually quite easy to install. I used a stepped bit with an air drill and didn't have to worry about drilling through the CV boot because it was so short.



After that was all set, I raised the car back up to take these pictures and remembered there are 4 nice bolt holes in the side of the block where the Equinox axle was mounted.



Now I'm thinking this might be a prime location for a bracket for an "upper" motor mount running the dog bone I got between the side of the block and the cradle. The only thing I'm worried about with this route is the steep angle of the dog bone and it being so low that it might not be in the best place to deal with the moment created by the torquing of the engine.

Finally, today I was messing with my clutch some more. Found the Slave cylinder wasn't pushing out all the way so my mind went straight to it being bad inside and installed the new one. Well now it's doing the exact same thing so that's a waste of $30 but oh well. Then in response to my thread questioning my slave cylinder on this forum I checked under the dashboard. First the pedal isn't as high as I thought. It's about in line with the brake pedal, not one inch above. Then I saw that the master cylinder push rod was a little cockeyed and with some fidgeting it just fell right off the clutch pedal. The bushing for it was totally shot and broken.

Because a new pedal and bushings are pretty cheap (around $50 for the pedal, two bushings, and the rubber foot pad), I just ordered it. Hopefully it solves my problem (it should?) because this will make 99% of everything for the clutch system brand new. Only thing not replaced is the master cylinder and the arm for the throw out bearing. New flywheel, clutch disk, pressure plate, hydraulic line, slave cylinder, pedal, bushings. Thought about ordering the adjustable banjo from Rodney but figured I'd wait to see how this works first.

Also took a video of the car running, and now idling with an obvious vacuum leak at the throttle body (needs a new gasket I suspect) but can't log into youtube to upload it for some reason...If I have some time tomorrow to work on it I'll install a new throttle body gasket and let the car run for a bit to circulate the new gas and injector cleaner through the system. Hopefully that'll clear up the small miss fire I'm getting. Plus this will let me check the heat on the wires to see if any need to be relocated so they don't melt. I'd rather not be stuck driving down to Akron for school! I'll also bleed the brakes if I find a helper and maybe start on that engine mount if I find the materials for it.

Sadly I know it won't be drivable for my first day of school (Bummer!) but it's not a lost cause yet for Fall! At least in the Fall I won't be needing the AC that I haven't finished hooking up yet.

[This message has been edited by KaijuSenso (edited 06-20-2014).]

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-18-2011 10:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well I finally drove my Fiero!! It was definitely scary because of the alignment issues so I didn't go over 25 and only went down the street a few houses before turning around. Man was the car loud! My clutch problem ended up being the clutch arm. It was cracked and broken. Also fixed the miss fire. Pulled the fuel rail and swapped injectors between cylinder 5 and 1 looking to see if the miss moved. Well it didn't, it just decided to work perfectly! So no idea what really was wrong. Looking to get the alignement this week while at school and driving it next week!
IP: Logged
neophile_17
Member
Posts: 58
From: Southington, CT
Registered: Aug 2007


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-19-2011 09:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for neophile_17Send a Private Message to neophile_17Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Awesome. Glad you sorted out the clutch arm. At least you didn't pull the transmission before you figured it out like I did. Hope your first real drive goes smoothly.

~sam
IP: Logged
hookdonspeed
Member
Posts: 7979
From: baltimore, md
Registered: May 2008


Feedback score:    (9)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 131
Rate this member

Report this Post09-19-2011 01:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hookdonspeedClick Here to visit hookdonspeed's HomePageClick Here to Email hookdonspeedSend a Private Message to hookdonspeedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


go get that thing aligned and take it for a real testdrive
IP: Logged
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-19-2011 05:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here was the problem with my clutch. The clutch arm started to fall apart as I loosened the bolt! I figured it was just bent but you can even see more cracks in the base of it. Installing the new Cast Iron replacement from the Fiero Store was simple (needed to remove my front Header to get space to persuade it onto the shaft; the tolerances are pretty close.



Also here is a quick video proving my car moves! Because of the bad alignment I decided not to try and drive one handed on city streets thus I cut it short. At the end you can hear the unhappy tires squealing a bit. No Muffler just my Truleo headers and y pipe.

[This message has been edited by KaijuSenso (edited 06-20-2014).]

IP: Logged
Will
Member
Posts: 13449
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 234
Rate this member

Report this Post09-19-2011 07:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You can get your toe about 90% with a tape measure...
IE, you can get rid of almost all that bad behavior before you take it to a shop...
IP: Logged
Joseph Upson
Member
Posts: 4929
From:
Registered: Jan 2002


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 88
Rate this member

Report this Post09-19-2011 07:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The back side mount pad is definately not the best place for an anti torque strut and I never felt the stock location was the best idea either. The transmission will be the source so the closer you get to it with the torque mount the better, otherwise you'll have a twisting motion underload, this is why it's still possible to separate the front tranny mount after a while. If the torque strut was connected to the upper tranny bellhousing bolts or the aft end of the cylinder head movement would be much better controlled because the torque strut would be much closer to the center of the opposing force absorbing and pushing against more of the load trying to pull the front tranny mount apart.

With a more powerful motor this will become more significant when using stock mounts.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 08-28-2012).]

IP: Logged
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-25-2011 11:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Have been driving the car around all weekend without any serious issues On Thursday I made a basic solid upper motor mount just to keep the engine from bucking until I figure out a permanent set up for my poly dog bone.



It's nothing pretty but gets the job done and hasn't broken yet. I still need to weld in the last foot and a half of exhaust pipe to connect the Trueleo Y pipe to my WCF Catback with Spintek muffler. Overall I'll hope to have a similar sound of a 2.8 with no cat, but meaner. One of the ground wires from the PCM escaped and rubbed against the serpentine belt, which cut it. There wasn't a noticeable difference so luckily it was in an area that was obvious to see and correct the problem. I also started looming the wires and hid the nest around the PCM under the center consul for now so it's not completely obvious that something is up with this car sitting in the parking deck. And just for fun here are a couple of videos from my drive to the University of Akron tonight.





Trust me, it's a hell of a lot louder then the videos suggest...
As you can see the temperature is nice and steady around 190-200F but I'd like to lower it a bit so will be looking for a new thermostat before it gets hot next summer. For the cool Ohio Autumn it's fine. Also cut the wire leading to the oil pressure gauge because it pegged and wasn't sure if the LNJ sensor was compatible with it directly. The check engine light is on from the EGR, Oil Lamp circuit missing, and EVAP vent (but the EVAP purge is hooked up). I plan to get some logs and send the computer out to be tuned better this winter. Even with how it's set up now, for the 83 miles I drove, I got around 27 MPG. Not too shabby but I'm sure it's partly because I was going very easy because of how loud the exhaust is. I still got on it on the highway on ramp and it was sitting and idling a bit when I was showing off my handy work to my friends.

Hopefully my next update will show a 99% finished Chevy Equinox 3400 (LNJ) swapped into my 1986 Fiero 4 speed Muncie.

[This message has been edited by KaijuSenso (edited 06-20-2014).]

IP: Logged
hookdonspeed
Member
Posts: 7979
From: baltimore, md
Registered: May 2008


Feedback score:    (9)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 131
Rate this member

Report this Post09-26-2011 02:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hookdonspeedClick Here to visit hookdonspeed's HomePageClick Here to Email hookdonspeedSend a Private Message to hookdonspeedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by KaijuSenso:

Have been driving the car around all weekend without any serious issues On Thursday I made a basic solid upper motor mount just to keep the engine from bucking until I figure out a permanent set up for my poly dog bone.




LOL!!!!! thats actually NOT a bad idea... i might have to do something like that, only maybe with a rubber buffer in the middle?
IP: Logged
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-06-2011 07:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Welded up the rest of the exhaust on Monday. Boy is it a lot quieter then I anticipated, maybe I was just used to the ridiculous open header noise? No catalytic converter.



Been driving it around all week here at school and haven't had any problems. Not on 30+ mile highway drives or short bursts around town. I feel it is safe to say that it's an accomplished swap that just needs some loose ends tied up. The decklid rattles a bit on the alternator so I have to cut the notch a bit bigger, there are a few wires I still need to loom that I can't get to from the top of the car, hook up the AC after winter is over, and tidy up the mess of wires that are now shoved under the center console.

My brake calipers were not happy sitting around all winter and now the passenger rear's seal is leaking pretty good. Thus I took the initiative and went to Pull A Part to pick up some goodies

First are a set of '85 ElDorado calipers with brand new pads! They looked in ok condition, one was recently replaced and the other needs some cleaning up.



Next I found a really nice looking set of 85-90 Grand Am calipers, the whole car looks really good and I was surprised it was at the junk yard...



Then I was lucky enough to run into two Fieros! One, an 85 GT was pretty torn apart, but the 86 notchie had a really nice parking brake lever so I grabbed it...Hopefully I can get my parking brake in working order now!



Now I just have to buy 4 Grand Am rotors and front pads, a set of rear caliper brackets, and have my hub/rotors machined down. Then figure out which parking brake cables are broken/missing. Hopefully I can get this done before snow hits within 2 months or so.

[This message has been edited by KaijuSenso (edited 06-20-2014).]

IP: Logged
Will
Member
Posts: 13449
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 234
Rate this member

Report this Post10-06-2011 08:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by KaijuSenso:

First are a set of '85 ElDorado calipers with brand new pads! They looked in ok condition, one was recently replaced and the other needs some cleaning up.





The '85 Eldo rear calipers are typically used with the LeBaron 11.25" rotors, which would make a really bad match with the Grand Am 9 3/8" rotors in front...
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-06-2011 08:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So was my understanding wrong of this thread by Arns85GT? http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/083566.html I thought it was explaining how to do the "Grand Am brake upgrade" using Seville calipers on the rear for the parking brake?

[This message has been edited by KaijuSenso (edited 10-06-2011).]

IP: Logged
Will
Member
Posts: 13449
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 234
Rate this member

Report this Post10-06-2011 08:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Wasn't aware people were doing that...

If you're going to that much effort, just do the LeBaron conversion and have 11 1/4" rotors instead of 9 3/8.
IP: Logged
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post03-21-2012 03:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Got the car out and about for spring!

First things first, I've spotted an oil leak on the bottom of the transmission and oil pan. Looks like it's coming from between them so my thoughts are either rear main seal (2000 miles or so...) or transmission seal somewhere (94k miles).



And while I was checking my Trans fluid, I couldn't resist making a short idle video



Other then that hiccup, I got my machined front hubs for the brake upgrade (from fierofan25, thanks again!)



As well as installed all my new ebrake components, junk yard handle (looks great compared to my old busted up one!) and all new cables and adjuster.



Also installed S10 brake booster from sardonyx247



Probably should go ahead and drop the cradle before tampering with the rear brakes. Should be a lot easier this time around.

[This message has been edited by KaijuSenso (edited 06-20-2014).]

IP: Logged
Darth Fiero
Member
Posts: 5888
From: Waterloo, Indiana
Registered: Oct 2002


Feedback score: (5)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 360
Rate this member

Report this Post04-21-2012 01:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by KaijuSenso:

Had a few questions about the crank trigger also. Do these 60 degree V6's have 2 sensors? One on the crank and one behind the harmonic balance? The reason I ask is I'm wondering if the external 7x crank trigger from WOT tech is sufficient to run a 2000 OBD2 computer. Ryan from Sinister Performance was reading something about it in the 2005 Equinox service manual. Here is what it said. 60degreeV6 says this motor has the 24x trigger. any thoughts?



A few people have asked in the past if it would be possible to use an "earlier" generation OBD2 PCM from something like a 98 Venture Van (3400) with a newer design 60 deg V6 engine. The 3500 (VVT and non-VVT), 3400 LNJ, and 3900 (VVT) engines all have a single internal crank trigger which differs from what the 3400 LA1 and 3100 V6's used. All 3400 LNJ, 3500s, and 3900s come with drive-by-wire throttle controls and a newer generation ECM which is more sophisticated than earlier OBD2 PCMs, which can complicate things when trying to do an engine swap using this “advanced” technology.

3100 and 3400 LA1 V6's use two separate crank sensors; the 7x (mounted in the block) drives the coil pack, base fuel and spark functions while the 24x (mounted behind the balancer) was thought to only be used for misfire detection. The newer generation 60 deg V6 engines use a single sensor which connects directly to the ECM, which in-turn, drives the ignition coils directly (which makes the newer gen engines directly incompatible with earlier generation OBD2 PCMs and OBD1 ECMs).

Currently, you can buy an external 7x crank trigger wheel and sensor setup from WOT-TECH which gives you the ability to use a new generation 60-deg V6 with an older OBD1 ECM. But that trigger wheel mounts outboard of the crank pulley and there's no provision for a 24x sensor on it. It might be possible to use a 3100/3400 LA1 timing cover on a newer gen V6 - which if you could do that, it would give you the provisions to run the 24x crank sensor. But I'm not sure the WOT-TECH external 7x sensor would work with such a setup since what they sell appears to be designed to work with the timing covers and crank pulley assemblies that come on the newer gen V6's. And the question has always been: will an "older gen" OBD2 PCM work properly missing the 24x crank sensor input? Today I found that out...

I unplugged the 24x sensor and disabled all related codes for it, misfire detection, etc on a 1999 3100 V6 application I had in the shop. I went on a drive and, initially, the engine ran just as it had with everything plugged in (stock). Everything looked to be operating normally on the scan; but once I went to full throttle, the engine fell on its face and a code P0327 set (which is for the knock sensor). I did some looking thru the service manual and here is what I found:

 
quote
If either the 24X crank sensor or the cam signal are not present, the KS signal will stop updating and may set DTC P0327.


Furthermore, the service manual had this to say about the 24x crank sensor signal:

 
quote
The 24X reference signal is used to improve idle spark control at low engine speeds. The PCM uses the 24X reference signal to calculate engine RPM and crankshaft position at engine speeds below 1600 RPM. The PCM constantly monitors the number of pulses on the 24X reference circuit and compares the number of 24X reference pulses to the number of 3X reference pulses and CAM signal pulses being received. If the PCM receives an incorrect number of pulses on the 24X reference circuit, DTC P0336 will set and the PCM will use the 3X reference signal circuit for fuel and ignition control. The engine will continue to start and run using the 3X reference and CAM signals only.



With the 24x sensor unplugged (and all codes relating to it disabled), I never saw any activity on the knock retard data. Which leads me to suspect that the PCM might suspend using the knock sensor signal entirely if there is no 24x crank sensor signal received.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? Well, if you want to use a 3400 LNJ, 3500 (VVT or non), or 3900 VVT V6 in a swap with something other than the newer gen ECM that was originally used with one of these engines, your ECM/PCM choices might be limited.

The 1998~2005 OBD2 PCM architecture is what I refer to as the "Gen2 OBD2 PCM". A slightly larger, less sophisticated PCM was used the previous 2 years (1996-97) which I refer to as the "Gen1 OBD2 PCMs". Interestingly, researching the service manual on these “Gen1” OBD2 PCMs and the code P0327 shows that there appears to be no impact on the KS circuit function if the 24x crank signal is missing. So it MIGHT be possible to use one of these earliest generation OBD2 PCMs with only a 7x crank sensor signal (and a cam sensor signal if you want SFI to work).

I don't currently have access to a vehicle that is using a 96-97 OBD2 PCM in it to see how it reacts to not having the 24x crank sensor signal going to it. But hopefully, one day I will so I can test it. It would be nice to be able to use a Gen1 or Gen2 OBD2 PCM with one of the newer generation 60 deg V6 engines. These PCMs are cake to tune vs. the newer drive-by-wire ECMs, and are easier to tune vs. the older, OBD1 ECMs like the stock Fiero 2.8 ECM and the 1227730 ECM – especially on modified engines.

-ryan


------------------
OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

IP: Logged
Will
Member
Posts: 13449
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 234
Rate this member

Report this Post04-21-2012 08:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
With the 24x sensor unplugged (and all codes relating to it disabled), I never saw any activity on the knock retard data. Which leads me to suspect that the PCM might suspend using the knock sensor signal entirely if there is no 24x crank sensor signal received.


And I assume since the engine didn't perform well with the 24x unplugged, that the PCM reverts to a "safe" timing table when it's not utilizing knock sensor feedback.

Do you know where that table is in the code? It would be a bandaid that removes a safety feature, but that table could be updated to give the engine full power without the 24x or knock sensor.

Or does the PCM just go to max KR all the time when it enters power enrichment?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 04-21-2012).]

IP: Logged
Darth Fiero
Member
Posts: 5888
From: Waterloo, Indiana
Registered: Oct 2002


Feedback score: (5)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 360
Rate this member

Report this Post04-21-2012 03:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


And I assume since the engine didn't perform well with the 24x unplugged, that the PCM reverts to a "safe" timing table when it's not utilizing knock sensor feedback.


Actually the engine performed fine until P0327 set. I'm sure if I would have disabled code P0327, the engine would not have lost power at all. But that might have deactivated the knock sensor function as well.

 
quote
Do you know where that table is in the code? It would be a bandaid that removes a safety feature, but that table could be updated to give the engine full power without the 24x or knock sensor.


No clue. Code disassemblies (hacks) for OBD2 applications are not easy to come by at all.

 
quote

Or does the PCM just go to max KR all the time when it enters power enrichment?



I only noticed a lot of timing being dialed back above about 4000 rpm at full throttle. Once I let off the gas and started driving normally again, it appeared as though I still had most of the timing advance (at part throttle) as normal; according to the scan. But when I tried going to full throttle again, the engine was only getting about 1/2 the timing advance as normal and the engine just didn't perform. I'm sure with P0327 set, the PCM reverted to using the values in the low octane timing table.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 04-21-2012).]

IP: Logged
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-27-2012 10:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There has been a lot of work done since my last update but I can't seem to link to pictures the same way anymore. Uploading them with PIP is difficult too because I'd have to go in an readjust each picture to meet the size requirements...

The best I can do for anyone interested (until I become less lazy) is link you to my thread on 60degreev6 to see my engine upgrades.

http://60degreev6.com/forum...16-3400-LNJ-upgrades
IP: Logged
Joseph Upson
Member
Posts: 4929
From:
Registered: Jan 2002


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 88
Rate this member

Report this Post06-28-2012 05:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by KaijuSenso:

There has been a lot of work done since my last update but I can't seem to link to pictures the same way anymore. Uploading them with PIP is difficult too because I'd have to go in an readjust each picture to meet the size requirements...

The best I can do for anyone interested (until I become less lazy) is link you to my thread on 60degreev6 to see my engine upgrades.

http://60degreev6.com/forum...16-3400-LNJ-upgrades


Becomming less lazy is easy, change the resolution on the camera to something small enough to fit within Pip specs. There is a wealth of good info on all sorts of builds and repairs here that have been rendered useless because the pics were linked to sites that the poster never maintained making them no longer assessable.
IP: Logged
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-28-2012 08:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes sir, I will do it this weekend and put all of the pictures up in this thread. My camera is just my iPhone and I didn't see any easily accessible settings. I'll look more into this situation after work.
IP: Logged
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-30-2012 03:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post




































[This message has been edited by KaijuSenso (edited 07-02-2012).]

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post07-02-2012 09:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


















Sorry about all of the pictures in a row!
IP: Logged
ericjon262
Member
Posts: 2674
From: everywhere.
Registered: Jan 2010


Feedback score:    (10)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 63
Rate this member

Report this Post07-03-2012 12:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sorry!? we live off pictures! keep them coming!

------------------
there's a Group on 60degreeV6.com for us 660 Fiero owners!

Fiero Owner's group on 60degreeV6.com

I know these lines Look crooked on paper, but I swear I've got them straight in my head.

IP: Logged
ericjon262
Member
Posts: 2674
From: everywhere.
Registered: Jan 2010


Feedback score:    (10)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 63
Rate this member

Report this Post08-28-2012 04:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Updates?

------------------
there's a Group on 60degreeV6.com for us 660 Fiero owners!

Fiero Owner's group on 60degreeV6.com

I know these lines Look crooked on paper, but I swear I've got them straight in my head.

IP: Logged
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post08-28-2012 07:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Started the car this past Saturday. Runs like garbage, slight backfire, no power. Hopefully it's just a combination of bad fuel and a completely generic tune. If one of the exhaust valves is sticking a bit I'll be annoyed. If it idles below 2000 rpm it'll almost steadily miss and backfire a bit, keeping it above 2000 and it is fine. Once you actually drive it though it does it pretty bad, enough to start getting a flashing check engine light. Also the OBDII data link connector decided it doesn't connect anymore so I'll need to figure that out first to read any codes I've been getting.

I got a couple crappy videos I'll throw on youtube.
IP: Logged
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post08-28-2012 07:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post



2 more little videos to come



and one when it sounds a little better

[This message has been edited by KaijuSenso (edited 08-28-2012).]

IP: Logged
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-16-2012 09:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Had the time to get the car back into the shop this past weekend. Needed to adjust the cam timing, it was off by a tooth. Also found the spark plug wires for cylinders 6 and 4 were swapped (doh!) Can't believe some of the little things I screw up sometime. Anyway the car sounds mean now and I've been driving it to work for the past 2 days with no problems (other then seriously annoying scraping sound from the rear wheels, assumed to be the dust shields) Throttle is a bit sticky because of the shift cables, need to adjust the header crossover pipe down. There is probably about an inch of room above the transmission. Shift cables are also getting jacked up from the weird angle they are at. Ordered new ones from Rodney Dickman, should be here soon. Just needs a tie rod (somehow popped one...) and an alignment and hopefully it'll be safe enough to take to the last autocross event on Sunday!





IP: Logged
34blazer660
Member
Posts: 88
From: Las Vegas
Registered: Sep 2012


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

User Banned

Report this Post10-16-2012 09:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 34blazer660Click Here to Email 34blazer660Send a Private Message to 34blazer660Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
LOL what a small world, i grew up in Royalton. Nice ride
IP: Logged
ConvictedRedneck
Member
Posts: 1034
From: Easton, PA - USA
Registered: Nov 2005


Feedback score:    (7)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-17-2012 05:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ConvictedRedneckClick Here to Email ConvictedRedneckSend a Private Message to ConvictedRedneckEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sounds wicked! Hows the driveability and power increase from the cam?
IP: Logged
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-17-2012 07:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Honestly I can not tell you if it "feels" any faster or not. First and foremost it's just a very generic tune from Sinister Performance and we agreed that I'd take the car to him to get an in person tune. Secondly it's been quite a while since I've driven this car and I believe my Audi S4 has spoiled me in regards to power. This Fiero doesn't really hold a card to a Stage 3 2.7T S4 in the state it is in...

Gotta get some stuff fixed, front end is out of alignment, broke the clutch slave bracket, exhaust crossover needs to be lowered and new shift cables installed to name a few things. If the car feels safe I'll try to get it to Ryan before the winter weather hits, otherwise I'll start on the brake upgrade and try to get the car as nice as I can over the winter.
IP: Logged
Previous Page | Next Page

This topic is 4 pages long:  1   2   3   4 
next newest topic | next oldest topic

All times are ET (US)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Back To Main Page

Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery | Ogre's Cave
Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock