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180 Degree headers on a 2.8 Listen to this sound! by Rick 88
Started on: 07-08-2010 05:03 PM
Replies: 75 (9509 views)
Last post by: FieroNate on 12-18-2013 01:15 AM
Rick 88
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Report this Post07-08-2010 05:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rick 88Send a Private Message to Rick 88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I found a link to some guys in Taiwan that are Fiero nuts. One has a set of what appear to be 180 degree headers on the 2.8. I have always loved the sound of the stock V6 Fiero exhaust, but with these headers it really sounds exotic. Listen to this: http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/...ner/article?mid=9902 Is anyone here making a set of 180's for the 2.8/3.4? This would be a great sounding system for a Mera or Ferrari kit. I would buy a set of headers that made my engine sound like this! Anyone who can translate this?
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Report this Post07-08-2010 05:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rick 88Send a Private Message to Rick 88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
From what I can see this looks like a basically stock 2.8. I don't know of any muffler that would give the 2.8 that sound. I think it has to be the way the tubes are routed. I have heard other 180 degree systems and they mimic the high rpm sound of some European engines, I would not care if the performance improved, I just like the sound. I wonder if someone could contact the owner and ask for bettter pictures of the exhaust system?
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Report this Post07-08-2010 05:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for timgrayClick Here to visit timgray's HomePageClick Here to Email timgraySend a Private Message to timgrayEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think it's fake. That is not a 2.8 making that sound. Why would he crawl in and push the pedal by hand? Remember it's really easy to fake things on youtube. Until I see photos of the exhaust and others can replicate that, I'm calling shenanigans!

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Report this Post07-08-2010 06:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Another beating for the dead horse!

There is no such thing as 180-degree headers on a V6. A 6-cylinder engine has a cylinder fire every 120 degrees of crankshaft rotation. Since a V6 has 3 cylinders on each side, you would need 240-degree headers.

The GM 60-degree V6 family are even-fire V6 engines, which means each exhaust manifold has a cylinder fire every 240 degrees of crankshaft rotation. In other words, the stock exhaust manifolds are 240-degree headers!

In order to get firing pulses spaced 180 degrees apart on a V6, you would have to stagger the firing pulses, so the engine runs like a V8 with 2 dead cylinders. Let me tell you, a V8 with 2 dead cylinders doesn't sound anything like a Ferrari.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 07-08-2010).]

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Report this Post07-08-2010 06:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TommyRockerClick Here to Email TommyRockerSend a Private Message to TommyRockerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
seemed to match the drive away video at the bottom...
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Report this Post07-08-2010 07:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rick 88Send a Private Message to Rick 88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

Another beating for the dead horse!

There is no such thing as 180-degree headers on a V6. A 6-cylinder engine has a cylinder fire every 120 degrees of crankshaft rotation. Since a V6 has 3 cylinders on each side, you would need 240-degree headers.

The GM 60-degree V6 family are even-fire V6 engines, which means each exhaust manifold has a cylinder fire every 240 degrees of crankshaft rotation. In other words, the stock exhaust manifolds are 240-degree headers!

In order to get firing pulses spaced 180 degrees apart on a V6, you would have to stagger the firing pulses, so the engine runs like a V8 with 2 dead cylinders. Let me tell you, a V8 with 2 dead cylinders doesn't sound anything like a Ferrari.



So basically there is no way you can duplicate this exhaust sound with a 2.8, or 3.4. I am not an exhaust expert. I just like that sound. I cannot figure out the way the pipes are running off the engine in the pictures shown. It also does not look like there is a muffler on the trunk side. It must have one on the convertor side. Do any of the headers available here alter the exhaust to sound like that?

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Report this Post07-08-2010 07:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kikinz24Click Here to Email kikinz24Send a Private Message to kikinz24Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This topic has bee floating around here for a while now it is that car with the sound he ha
s many photos of his exhaust routing and it is made to stagger the outer cylinders in to the inner ones. Very intersting sound but would hurt the performance tremendously piping is wayyyy too small to run 6 cyl off of. But will add is definitly a good sound
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Report this Post07-08-2010 08:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by kikinz24:

This topic has bee floating around here for a while now it is that car with the sound he ha
s many photos of his exhaust routing and it is made to stagger the outer cylinders in to the inner ones. Very intersting sound but would hurt the performance tremendously piping is wayyyy too small to run 6 cyl off of. But will add is definitly a good sound


The stock 2.8 has equally spaced firing sequence between each cylinder on each individual bank, and the pulses on each bank are equally phased with each other as well. To get the perfect equally spaced exhaust pulses, just run equal length primaries, collectors and exhaust pipes... that is all it takes (no need to connect cylinders from opposite banks).

It looks like they replaced the stock manifolds with the some shorty equal length headers (primaries maybe 9-10" long) and the into (I assume) equal length exhaust pipes for each side w/o any mufflers (but it is hard to see exactly what is happening with the exhaust pipes in the pics).


I am not buying the sound is coming from a 2.8... w/o cat/muffler they are WAY louder than that, the exhaust tips do not appear to move with the engine revving, the idle once done just doesn't sound right and the EGR looks like it is still mounted to a somewhat stock Y-pipe... call me a skeptic.
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Report this Post07-08-2010 08:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kikinz24Click Here to Email kikinz24Send a Private Message to kikinz24Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Equalength tubes to a collector still leave it loud as hell. And a deep tone.read the article posted above other people have also chimed in on the making of it. There also is a link to the kids blog. And a second video on the bottom. Of the car moving driving and his phone or camera in the engine bay the headers on that car are cylinder 1-5 connectec and down 1.5in piping 2-6 connected with 1.5 and 3-4 are solo. Leaving the tone to hunt . Different pulses. Due to each cylinder firing at differet orders they don't all fire at once. If its real cool for him if not oh well we really have no point arguing the statement.
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Report this Post07-08-2010 08:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by timgray:

I think it's fake. That is not a 2.8 making that sound. Why would he crawl in and push the pedal by hand? Remember it's really easy to fake things on youtube. Until I see photos of the exhaust and others can replicate that, I'm calling shenanigans!



Uhm. The link has several photos. It's not fake. It is however, a very complex exhaust system. And there have already been multiple threads about it.
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Report this Post07-08-2010 09:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rick 88Send a Private Message to Rick 88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
We need some one that can translate the page. That would probably explain what he did with the system. I'm sure there is a muffler on the back side of the engine. I don't think he would go thru all that exhaust work to post a fake sound clip with it.
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Report this Post07-08-2010 09:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kikinz24Click Here to Email kikinz24Send a Private Message to kikinz24Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There's no mufflers on the car. And the car is real. It is very complex setup
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Report this Post07-08-2010 09:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm with timgray on this one... there's no way that's a 60* V6 sound track.
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Report this Post07-08-2010 09:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HausFieroSend a Private Message to HausFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It sounds like it was shifting gears when he rly starts to get on it because it sounds like sumn is holdin it back if u know what I mean.. Might of had the sound from another vid sync'd to this one.. Coulda just been that he was pushin the pedal slower.. Idk bout this one....
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Report this Post07-08-2010 11:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BluEyesClick Here to Email BluEyesSend a Private Message to BluEyesEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

There is no such thing as 180-degree headers on a V6. A 6-cylinder engine has a cylinder fire every 120 degrees of crankshaft rotation. Since a V6 has 3 cylinders on each side, you would need 240-degree headers.


You could duplicate the 180* header concept and make 360* headers for the V6. If the goal is simply evenly spaced exhaust pulses at the collectors, a 1-4, 2-5, 3-6 would do the trick. Hmmm, three exhaust pipes might look pretty slick. Wonder how it would sound?

------------------
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Report this Post07-08-2010 11:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for billpappsSend a Private Message to billpappsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The only way I can see having this sound out of a 6.. Is to have the Cyl grouped up in Pairs.
Headers would group Clys. 1-4 2-6 3-5 . Then run into a single collector. Then I'm not sure
If that would work.

I would have to see the car before I believe.
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Report this Post07-08-2010 11:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for billpappsSend a Private Message to billpappsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by BluEyes:


You could duplicate the 180* header concept and make 360* headers for the V6. If the goal is simply evenly spaced exhaust pulses at the collectors, a 1-4, 2-5, 3-6 would do the trick. Hmmm, three exhaust pipes might look pretty slick. Wonder how it would sound?



Interesting
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Report this Post07-09-2010 01:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rick 88Send a Private Message to Rick 88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Can one of you exhaust experts figure out what he is doing with the pipes from the pictures in the thread?
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Report this Post07-09-2010 09:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaClick Here to Email Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think that video is totally legit. Look the bottom video. But there is a muffler. You can see it in pictures 16 & 17 (top to bott.). Is not that supper exotic to me. Still has the Fiero idle ruumble. I think is a combination of the headers, tips and a rice Jap muffler. Sounds nice thou.
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Report this Post07-09-2010 10:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've heard 3.4 TDC engines that sound pretty similar. So I wouldn't rule it out.

However, I wanted to make it clear that the rumors about 180-degree headers and a flat-plane crankshaft are false.
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Report this Post07-09-2010 12:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rick 88Send a Private Message to Rick 88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Blacktree,

What do you think of the pictures of the way his exhaust is routed? I am trying to find someone who can read his post.
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Report this Post07-09-2010 01:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It looks like some funky type of multiple-Y setup. It's hard to tell from the photos, but it looks like the outside cylinders on each bank (i.e. 1+5 and 2+6) go into a Y. Then the outlet of that Y and the middle cylinder (#3 on one side, and #4 on the other) go into another Y. And the outlet of that Y goes into a stock-ish Y-pipe.

What he's done is change the phasing of the exhaust pulses, in relation to each other, to create a different exhaust note. IMO, it sounds like a 4-banger.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 07-09-2010).]

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Report this Post07-09-2010 01:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaClick Here to Email Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

... IMO, it sounds like a 4-banger.



Can't agree more.
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Report this Post07-09-2010 02:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Alex4mula:
Can't agree more.


Don't know about you all, but neither of my 4-bangers sound anything like that. Neither the 2.2 in my S-10, or the 1.6 in my Mini Cooper.

However, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2-a4mak6-Y sounds very similar, at about 0:45 into the film, where he revs it.
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Report this Post07-09-2010 11:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I guess that the euro engine sound is caused by a unique exhaust routing plus the effect added by the owner wrapping all of the exhaust pieces. Someone who is skilled in exhaust tuning should be able to replicate this sound.

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Report this Post07-09-2010 11:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 17CarSend a Private Message to 17CarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
He needs to wash his car off
That would be a pain to fabricate, not a bad sound, but it kinda sounds more like a civic or nissan than an exotic.
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Report this Post07-10-2010 02:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaClick Here to Email qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Plus, he is in a parking garage. Ever drive your car in one, and goose the gas, its going to sound great because of the echo. I know that i set off alarms all the time. (05 GTO).

Rob
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Report this Post07-10-2010 09:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
I guess that the euro engine sound is caused by a unique exhaust routing plus the effect added by the owner wrapping all of the exhaust pieces. Someone who is skilled in exhaust tuning should be able to replicate this sound.


I highly doubt the heat wrap has anything to do with the sound. The only thing it would really help with in that respect, is if the exhaust is close enough to some other metal objects in the car, that they would vibrate and hit the exhaust with the car running, causing unrelated noise to enter the exhaust due to the vibrations. Any Fiero exhaust really should be coated and/or wrapped, throughout the engine bay, just to keep the ambient temperature down. It gets really hot in there with it uncoated or unwrapped.

It's pretty clear from the pics how he got that sound. And it could certainly be replicated. I'm not sure it's really worth the work, on a 2.8 though. A 3800, Northstar, or LSx that sounded like that, would be pretty mean though. And Zac88gt's N* sounds pretty close already.
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Report this Post07-10-2010 10:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for kikinz24Click Here to Email kikinz24Send a Private Message to kikinz24Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I translated his whole page best I could his car is that filthy because those photos were taken after a bad flood and his car was in an underground parking garage. All he states about the exhaust is he took several photos of his custom exhaust setup he had made back 7-8 years ago. Some guy in taiguin made them. Though they aren't helpful performance wise they create a sound that is so unique it still turns heads to this day.
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Report this Post07-10-2010 03:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero-in-ParadiseClick Here to Email Fiero-in-ParadiseSend a Private Message to Fiero-in-ParadiseEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have a friend in Shanghai who I sent this link to. The blog says that the exhaust were hand-made 7-8 years ago by a small shop owner. The current owner found the shop again and to have another set made would cost around $600 (and I seriously doubt that he means Taiwan dollars...that would equate to about $18 US dollars).

I had my friend interprete what he is saying at the end of the first clip. He listened to it repeatedly, but could not catch the whole thing due to the background noise. Basically though, he is saying something like "they're still heavy ---- sound, right? And the two-in-one combined still has the "huuu-huuu-huuu" sound."

Tom
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Report this Post07-11-2010 12:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mtownfieroClick Here to Email mtownfieroSend a Private Message to mtownfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
it looks like a stock 2.8l to me... http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/...ner/article?mid=9902
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Report this Post07-11-2010 07:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rick 88Send a Private Message to Rick 88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fiero-in-Paradise:

I have a friend in Shanghai who I sent this link to. The blog says that the exhaust were hand-made 7-8 years ago by a small shop owner. The current owner found the shop again and to have another set made would cost around $600 (and I seriously doubt that he means Taiwan dollars...that would equate to about $18 US dollars).

I had my friend interprete what he is saying at the end of the first clip. He listened to it repeatedly, but could not catch the whole thing due to the background noise. Basically though, he is saying something like "they're still heavy ---- sound, right? And the two-in-one combined still has the "huuu-huuu-huuu" sound."

Tom



Tom,

I used the tool bar translator. Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately, it does not help much other than to verify what you just said. The car was dirty in the pictures because is was in a underground garage that has flooded. Apparently the car survived the water. I will send you some question for you friend in Shanghai. Maybe we can get some more info.
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Report this Post07-11-2010 07:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IMSA GTClick Here to Email IMSA GTSend a Private Message to IMSA GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Don't know if you saw this. It was at the bottom of his page. Near the end, he gets on it as he drives away.

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Report this Post07-11-2010 11:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rick 88Send a Private Message to Rick 88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
In that video, it almost sounds like like a high performance sport bike. I still like it!
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Report this Post07-11-2010 11:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IMSA GTClick Here to Email IMSA GTSend a Private Message to IMSA GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

I guess that the euro engine sound is caused by a unique exhaust routing plus the effect added by the owner wrapping all of the exhaust pieces. Someone who is skilled in exhaust tuning should be able to replicate this sound.



Thats the key....experience with routing, length, and being able to separate the cylinders to where the engine runs great. Think about it from a simple standpoint.....the V6 chugs along because of the firing order and all of the exhaust going into 1 pipe on each side, but what if you could make the chug a constant. That is what the guy did. By separating the middle cylinder of each side and adding a huge length to it, the exhaust sound is now tuned to be nice and even instead of a growl. I have looked at the pictures of this guys routing of the pipes and this guy has so much extra pipe under that car that it goes towards the front of the car and even curves below the oil pan towards the back.
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Report this Post07-13-2010 05:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rick 88Send a Private Message to Rick 88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have been in communication with the previous owner of the Fiero in the video from Taiwan. I think he is going to send me a diagram of the pipe routing. His English is much better than anything I could attempt in his language.

I was told the pipes were done in 02 or 03. He did say the car had no muffler, In person it sounded like a race bike exhaust system, and was a little loud. He also mentioned that the exhaust really turned heads because of its distinct sound.The car had been in storage for years and was a victim of a flood in an underground parking garage. That is why it looked like it did in the pictures. It is one of around 200 Fiero that were imported into Taiwan new in 87 and 88. He told me that about 90% were GT's. He also metioned there are still some survivors and enthusiasts of the car still there.
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Report this Post07-21-2010 12:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rick 88Send a Private Message to Rick 88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
New pictures soon!
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kikinz24
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Report this Post07-21-2010 07:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for kikinz24Click Here to Email kikinz24Send a Private Message to kikinz24Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Tom has already uploaded more photos. I've been talking to him for the past 2 weeks now. Its a very complex exhaust system. 3.5in piping what looks like a diesel resonator. Though the pictures stop short of seeing what happens at the end. It looks like it goes up to another resonator comes around then y's off for the exhaust but you cannot tell. Asked him about it and he stated there is only 1 resonator on the car. And he can't take anymore photos because it was hard to take those under the car with 2 stock jacks.
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Francis T
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Report this Post07-21-2010 11:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Francis TClick Here to visit Francis T's HomePageClick Here to Email Francis TSend a Private Message to Francis TEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you want a 60 deg V6 to sound better, just build one for higher RPM. These V6s trying reving above 5k+ RPM will never sound exotic.
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