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Longitudinal BMW V12 in a Stock Fiero Engine Compartment - 25th Anniversary Countach by 88lambo
Started on: 04-11-2010 01:54 AM
Replies: 288 (54329 views)
Last post by: pmbrunelle on 12-05-2019 08:24 PM
88lambo
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Report this Post03-16-2011 09:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I borrowed this image from "Formula Owner" I hope you don't mind, if you do I will remove it...

The bolt shown in this image it the one that is stuck, I tried to push it out with my press but didn't budge...

[This message has been edited by 88lambo (edited 02-05-2018).]

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88lambo
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Report this Post03-31-2011 09:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Update...

Picking away at the cradle and the Fiero chassis, I got the fire wall stripped of all the brackets getting ready to cut the rear section off and start on building the tube frame from the firewall back.
I put the cradle into the chassis to see how it lined up, if you look at the photo from the back straight on you can see the center vertical tube are the same distance from the Fiero frame (which will be gone soon)
Tranny coming off engine this weekend then off to be rebuilt...

I guess since I will be cutting most of the rear section away I couldn't really call this a "Stock" engine compartment any more...so if you wanted to put this into a Stock Fiero I would retain the rear frame section (trunk still has to go) make the cradle suspension mounting points to use the fiero suspension components. You could use my lower suspension arms in conjunction with the Fiero rear shocks (or a coilover kit) and the stock shock tower...I still believe if you wanted to you could stuff this setup into a Fiero...which would be cool...Maybe my next project, a Fiero with the BMW V12 twin turbo!!!!









[This message has been edited by 88lambo (edited 02-05-2018).]

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88lambo
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Report this Post04-04-2011 11:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Removed transmission to take for rebuild...I took some Photos to show my adapter Kit for the BMW V12 to THM 325 GM transmission....



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88lambo
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Report this Post05-01-2011 05:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Update...

Transmission is still out for rebuild, waiting on 2 parts (new chain and shift kit) coming next saturday...

Well I did it, crossed the point of No Return with the chassis , the rear section back of the fire wall is pretty well gone!!! only thing left is the back piece to support the upper tube until I tie then into the lower 2 x 3 frame.
I'm hoping to have the rear frame and cradle totally done in a couple of weeks, I should have the transmission back buy then. Then its onto wiring up the engine and test firing it











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Niterrorz
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Report this Post05-01-2011 06:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NiterrorzSend a Private Message to NiterrorzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
wow thats pretty awesome but ummm theres not a whole lot of fiero left there lol :-P really cool tho.
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Report this Post05-03-2011 07:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jwrapeSend a Private Message to jwrapeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You have incredible talent and a lot of extra time. :-)
Looks like fun

------------------
86 Fiero 2M4 Silver, bought for electric conversion. Currently just fixing all the old stuff

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88lambo
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Report this Post05-03-2011 09:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the comments...I wish I had more time, I usually only get a few hours a week to work on the car. My wife and daughter go to bed fairly early which gives me some time, but our bedroom is over the garage which kills using cutoff saw, grinder, air compressor...etc, so I have to plan noisy stuff during the days and weekends and welding and assembly at nights

FYI anyone building a house (or getting ready to buy) and you are a car nut, make sure the bedrooms are NOT over the garage
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Report this Post05-04-2011 01:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlackThunderGTSend a Private Message to BlackThunderGTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Looking good I will be following this build until thee end.
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Austrian Import
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Report this Post05-04-2011 12:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Austrian ImportClick Here to Email Austrian ImportSend a Private Message to Austrian ImportEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Love your suspension design.

Could you go a bit into the how, and why's of where you located the A-arms, decided on length, etc.?
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88lambo
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Report this Post05-06-2011 12:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Love your suspension design.

Could you go a bit into the how, and why's of where you located the A-arms, decided on length, etc.?


I originally was going to use the Fiero suspension (why I labled the topic "Longitudinal BMW V12 in a Stock Fiero Engine Compartment ") but after stripping the chassis and finding a lot of rust at the rear drivers side I decided to go with a partial tube chassis for extra strength. The countach kit and wheels were designed to use the original rear suspension (not lengthened like other kits used) so I kept the length of the lower A-arms the same as the fiero's and the length of the uppers were goverened by the upper bolt hole of the spindle and the location of the attachment points of the frame rail. as you can see I have built a lot of adjustment into the A-Arms for camber, castor and toe...I am still working on geometery of the mounting height of the the upper A-Arm, I read on this forum that 1° is the standard setting, but I have to verify that, Now I must admit I am NOT very knowledgable about suspension geometery, I tend to play with it on the computer, at this point I have a -1° camber @ static heigth, -2.1° at fully compressed and -1.6° at fully extended, I not sure if this is good or bad, I will be working with My local mechanic/friend who is also a mechanic for a local stock car team and an avid hotrodder/collector (he also helped me with my Lotus front double wish bone suspension and that handled really well). I will be picking his brains before welding the upper mounting points in. In the long run I am not overly conserned about going all out on suspension setup, I will not be racing the car and with 700 pounds of engine and transmission in the rear (approx 80% of that in fromt of the axle) and with 345 wide rear tires and 225 wide front tires I don't expect the car to handle like a race car...

if anyone has any suggestions, i am always open to them...

John

[This message has been edited by 88lambo (edited 05-06-2011).]

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Austrian Import
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Report this Post05-06-2011 12:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Austrian ImportClick Here to Email Austrian ImportSend a Private Message to Austrian ImportEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I wish there were a forum where geeks of suspension design would congregate, share ideas, critique designs, and help each other out. Anyone ever found one?

I'm still learning about suspension design myself, but most books in bookstores seem really old, and limited. (I know suspension design doesn't change much, but I would love to see feedback on modern systems released on supercars.)

McLaren Mp4-12c


\

http://blogs.insideline.com...sion-walkaround.html
http://imgblaze.blogspot.co...ation-in-madrid.html

Lamborghini Aventator





Or the famous "Basement Lamborghini"


http://www.kiengineering.com/The_Bull.php

[This message has been edited by Austrian Import (edited 05-06-2011).]

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Will
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Report this Post05-06-2011 01:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Austrian Import:

I wish there were a forum where geeks of suspension design would congregate, share ideas, critique designs, and help each other out. Anyone ever found one?


More from the professional engineer perspective than the kit car perspective, though.

http://www.eng-tips.com/threadminder.cfm?pid=800

What you're *REALLY* looking for is a motorsports oriented suspension design forum...

What knuckles did the Basement Lambo use?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-06-2011).]

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88lambo
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Report this Post05-06-2011 07:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Basement Lambo's rear suspension looks sort of like an older 4 link corvette IRS
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Austrian Import
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Report this Post05-14-2011 02:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Austrian ImportClick Here to Email Austrian ImportSend a Private Message to Austrian ImportEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


More from the professional engineer perspective than the kit car perspective, though.

http://www.eng-tips.com/threadminder.cfm?pid=800

What you're *REALLY* looking for is a motorsports oriented suspension design forum...

What knuckles did the Basement Lambo use?



actually that's kind of what I was looking for.
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88lambo
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Report this Post05-26-2011 11:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Update...

Got my transmission back from being rebuilt, and a bit more done on the engine cradle including adding adjustable height/removable castors so I can easily remove, install and move the engine/transmission










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Will
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Report this Post05-27-2011 07:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 88lambo:

Basement Lambo's rear suspension looks sort of like an older 4 link corvette IRS


Are those the parts he started with?
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Report this Post05-27-2011 06:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManClick Here to Email JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 88lambo:

if anyone has any suggestions, i am always open to them...



Get this book:



How To Make Your Car Handle has detailed information on suspension and chassis design from both a layman's point of view as well as going in depth with the geometry and mathematics. Highly recommended.

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88lambo
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Report this Post05-27-2011 09:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Are those the parts he started with?


It looks like a Corvette C4 rear suspension with transverse leaf spring removed & modified to take coilovers....

JazzMan thanks for the info on the book...

[This message has been edited by 88lambo (edited 05-27-2011).]

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Report this Post06-27-2011 09:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ghost187xSend a Private Message to ghost187xEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
bump !!
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Report this Post06-27-2011 11:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for drattsClick Here to Email drattsSend a Private Message to drattsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
At the risk of sounding stupid ( which I do real good) , wasn't there a problem with clearance between the crankshaft of the v12 and the axle that passes through on a previous attempt. Anyway, nice work! I'm impressed.

[This message has been edited by dratts (edited 06-27-2011).]

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Report this Post06-28-2011 06:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dratts:

At the risk of sounding stupid ( which I do real good) , wasn't there a problem with clearance between the crankshaft of the v12 and the axle that passes through on a previous attempt. Anyway, nice work! I'm impressed.



Using off the shelf components to flip the differential places the axle in line with one of the counterweights on the crankshaft and causes interference. For the axle to fit, it must pass below a main cap bearing to avoid the crank throws and counterweights. This required a much thicker than normal adapter plate between the transmission and the differential.


Here is the setup the last guy who tried this used, notice the thickness of the adapter plate:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 06-28-2011).]

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dratts
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Report this Post06-28-2011 11:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for drattsClick Here to Email drattsSend a Private Message to drattsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just curious, it looks to me as though the engine is pretty much centered over the axles and the tranny is behind the axles. Do you know what the f/r weight ratio is. For sure you have a tranny that will hold whatever hp you throw at it. Again nice work, I'm not criticizing.
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88lambo
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Report this Post07-01-2011 01:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
fieroguru is correct i needed the larger adapter plate to space the axle under the main bolts to avoid the crank counter weights... it clears the tube going thru the oil pan.
as for weight distribution the axle does go under the center of the engine but since this is a reverse rotation setup (transmission is forward of the axle) i am guesstimating that 70-75% of the weight in engine/transmission package is forward of the axle, also since the chassis is stretched in the passenger compartment the fuel tank is now 5" further towards the front and the battery will be moved up front also which will help.
The tranny has been rebuilt with all new and heavy duty components and should be good for 450HP the bmw v12 puts out 300 HP and 330 FT-Lbs torque...

Update...
The engine cradle is complete
The engine/transmission/differential have been bolted together and are waiting to go onto the cradle. (i want to attach the cradle to the chassis and throw the body on to make sure that the axles/wheels are centered in the wheelwell, better and easier to do this before bolting everything together
I have a few more tubes to weld to complete the rear tube section of the chassis (hopefully done in the next couple weeks) then the engine/transmission/differential/cradle will go in, then rear suspension.
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buildamonster
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Report this Post07-02-2011 03:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for buildamonsterClick Here to Email buildamonsterSend a Private Message to buildamonsterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
if your 325 is rebuilt and the v12 only makes 330lbs of torque you will not have any problem. I have mine with a 330 hp 375 lbs of torque 350 that ran for a lot of mile with no problems. Only when i boosted the engine and make 500lbs of torque it went out very fast.
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88lambo
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Report this Post07-04-2011 08:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
if your 325 is rebuilt and the v12 only makes 330lbs of torque you will not have any problem. I have mine with a 330 hp 375 lbs of torque 350 that ran for a lot of mile with no problems. Only when i boosted the engine and make 500lbs of torque it went out very fast.


Yup sounds about right, i was told by a couple places you can build them to take about 400-450 HP not sure of the torque, but i would guess not much more than 400 Lbs. the TH325 shares a lot of components with the TH200 transmission. If you want a bullet proof version go with the TH425 (basicly a TH400 inside) but not sure if it has a long enough output spline for the differential to engage for reverse rotation. I could have used the TH425 since i had to make a spline adapter anyway...The i also heard TH425 is also a lot heavier which could help put more weight in front of the axle.

are you running reverse rotation? Have you gone to the TH425? what let go on the Th325? i heard usually the chain or the bands go first...
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Report this Post07-05-2011 01:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for buildamonsterClick Here to Email buildamonsterSend a Private Message to buildamonsterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The 425 is heavier than the 325 but about the same weight as 325 4L. The chain did not go out they are very stout so no worries there. I got rid of the 325 so I don't know exactly what failed but it smellet burnt like the clutch packs failed? I do not run reverse rotaion. It was a very nice trasmission it churped the tires between gears and if i had not ran boost on my engine it would still be a strong runner. Yes, I am runnig the 425, it's nice because it is basicaly a 400 and there are so many 400 parts available

[This message has been edited by buildamonster (edited 07-05-2011).]

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88lambo
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Report this Post07-28-2011 11:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Slow going on car, Great summer here in Ontario Canada, sunny and hot, Lots going on, 2 weeks vacation in Hampton Beach NH, and weekends up at the Lake, changing Jobs after 18 years...SOOO not working that much on the car, but picking away at rear tube frame...still hoping to have driveable chassis by the fall...a few photos to show what it will look like (I will be welding soon)





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88lambo
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Report this Post08-04-2011 10:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Got my gauge overlays from Will (25thcountach) They Look great!!!

Thanks again Will...


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88lambo
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Report this Post09-06-2011 11:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Update...rear frame work done, cradle is out and being prepared for paint and then engine will be mounted.













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[This message has been edited by 88lambo (edited 09-06-2011).]

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88lambo
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Report this Post11-04-2011 07:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Poking away at the car SLOWLY... Painted engine bay and cradle. Engine/tranny/differential all together on cradle.
Purchased exhaust tubing, muffler, coilovers, and axles...working on throttle linkage, exhaust, suspension.
Waiting for A/C bracket to come back from machineshop...














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88lambo
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Report this Post11-23-2011 10:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Update...construction of headers underway, should be better flowing than the stock exhaust manifold....






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86FieroSEv6
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Report this Post11-24-2011 05:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86FieroSEv6Click Here to Email 86FieroSEv6Send a Private Message to 86FieroSEv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
We are going to get a sound clip of it BEFORE the mufflers go on ..... right? Pretty please ... LOL.
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88lambo
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Report this Post11-24-2011 09:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
We are going to get a sound clip of it BEFORE the mufflers go on ..... right? Pretty please ... LOL.


Here you go...Not my engine but same model and year as mine, Video is from Choice Auto Wiring http://www.choiceautowiring.com/ (they made my engine management system) as soon as I get mine started I will post a video...


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Report this Post11-26-2011 09:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RUNDLCClick Here to Email RUNDLCSend a Private Message to RUNDLCEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Do you know how much Choice charges for the harness setup?
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88lambo
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Report this Post11-27-2011 08:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Do you know how much Choice charges for the harness setup?


All depends on the engine harness (V6, V8 or V12 he makes many systems) I can only tell you what I paid for the V12 harness...and it was custom (not the standard V12 one he does, my engine is facing backwards and his normal V12 harness is for engines facing forward) I paid about $1400 a year ago and that included the harness, two programmed computer chips (i have to get my own computers) a trigger ring that goes on the flywheel and installation instructions which included a list of which sensors, throttle bodies and computers to get...
the reason I had a custom harness done is the BMW V12's are really hard to set up using the BMW computers and harness, Choice's harness is a stand alone system that uses GM components which makes parts really easy to source...
Give them a call they are great to deal with...
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Report this Post11-27-2011 09:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AmidaClick Here to Email AmidaSend a Private Message to AmidaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A very challenging project. Keep up the good work.
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88lambo
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Report this Post01-16-2012 11:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
UPDATE still picking away at car, have the throttle controls done, had new 6 cylinder exhaust flanges made 1/2" thick 304 stainless steel, no alignment issues compared to the 3 cylinder ones. I was going to make 4x 3 into 1 headers but didn't have the room thats why I went 6 into 1 but with the 3 cylinder flanges is was hard to align the 2 flanges.
Once header are done then the engine/tranny/cradle assy goes back into the car and upper mounts for coilovers will be aligned and welded in, that will finish the suspension.
next on the list: connecting the engine (wiring), fuel tank, brake system, shifter and cable, cooling system = driveable chassis











[This message has been edited by 88lambo (edited 01-16-2012).]

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Reallybig
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Report this Post01-17-2012 04:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ReallybigSend a Private Message to ReallybigEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Keep up the good work! One of my favorite threads.
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88lambo
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Report this Post01-23-2012 11:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Update: Headers welded together, will be cleaning up welds and painting or ceramic coating...






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88lambo
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Report this Post01-24-2012 09:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Headers on engine, I never realized how much the headers resemble the intakes, they will look even better once painted or ceramic coated...







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