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Longitudinal BMW V12 in a Stock Fiero Engine Compartment - 25th Anniversary Countach by 88lambo
Started on: 04-11-2010 01:54 AM
Replies: 288 (54332 views)
Last post by: pmbrunelle on 12-05-2019 08:24 PM
88lambo
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Report this Post05-19-2010 03:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
am trying to understand why you extended the chassis in the floor area and not at the rear frame rails as done by most Countach builders .
the rear stretch at the frame rails allows an extra 5 inches in the engine bay but the way you stretched the car the engine bay stays the same .
to enlarge the bay on you chassis you will need to do major surgery in the tunnel floor pan fire wall and rear suspension to get the extra 5 inches


A few reasons to stretch in chassis:

1) I'm 6'-4" tall I don't fit a stock fiero let alone a fiero with 4-5" off the roof line...LOL. this allows me to put the seat back more and even leaves room for sub-woofers behind the seat
2) this kit was designed around the 5" stretch in the chassis. a 5" stretch anywhere between the wheels is a 5" wheelbase stretch...
3) this stretch is way easier, once i had the chassis set up for the cut it took me 10 minites to cut and a few hours to reweld the sheet metal together. also easier to support and align 2 large pieces with great support points then 1/2 the engine compartment. I didn't have to remove anything in the engine compartment.
4) as for engine bay mods , if you were running a transverse setup ie 3800, SBC, or whatever in your Replica its just like a stock Fiero. For my Longitudinal V12 the only mod to the engine compartment is to lose the trunk wall, just like in a stock Fiero Longitudinal setup. the suspension points stay the same but cradle will be modded a bit (just like any swap) If you are trying to do a longintudinal setup with a Porsche of Audi transaxle you need at least 11 inch stretch (thats why you only see them in Diablo's) so you would have to do major surgery anyway to move the firewall forward 6" then you would have to be a little guy

The problem with the kit car industry if one person does it everyone does it the same way, it may not be the best way. Mine might not be the best way either but i sure found it simple...

John
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bubbajoexxx
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Report this Post05-19-2010 03:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bubbajoexxxClick Here to visit bubbajoexxx's HomePageClick Here to Email bubbajoexxxSend a Private Message to bubbajoexxxEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I understand your choise now but will you have enough room to clear the transaxle at the fire wall
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88lambo
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Report this Post05-19-2010 03:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I will probably have to notch the passenger side of the firewall a little for the chain drive housing but nothing major...

where are you in ontario?
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bubbajoexxx
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Report this Post05-19-2010 04:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bubbajoexxxClick Here to visit bubbajoexxx's HomePageClick Here to Email bubbajoexxxSend a Private Message to bubbajoexxxEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
toronto

this is what I am presently building with this engine

[This message has been edited by bubbajoexxx (edited 05-19-2010).]

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25thCountach
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Report this Post05-19-2010 05:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 25thCountachClick Here to Email 25thCountachSend a Private Message to 25thCountachEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
who makes this kit? they should follow up with her sister, the Aerovette

Will
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bubbajoexxx
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Report this Post05-19-2010 07:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bubbajoexxxClick Here to visit bubbajoexxx's HomePageClick Here to Email bubbajoexxxSend a Private Message to bubbajoexxxEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 25thCountach:

who makes this kit? they should follow up with her sister, the Aerovette

Will


no kit it is hand built took lots of research to find what was used to build the body but i now have all the parts needed to consrtuct the shell
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88lambo
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Report this Post05-19-2010 08:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Very Cool!!!

What year Jag engine? Fuel injected? What transmission are you hooking to, by the shape i assume its Mid engine...
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25thCountach
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Report this Post05-19-2010 08:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 25thCountachClick Here to Email 25thCountachSend a Private Message to 25thCountachEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
not to stray, but I always wanted to do a proper Mantaray
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bubbajoexxx
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Report this Post05-19-2010 09:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bubbajoexxxClick Here to visit bubbajoexxx's HomePageClick Here to Email bubbajoexxxSend a Private Message to bubbajoexxxEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 88lambo:

Very Cool!!!

What year Jag engine? Fuel injected? What transmission are you hooking to, by the shape i assume its Mid engine...


86 jag 5.3 lt fuelie non catalist no polution controls and a harness that is fuel control only and simple 2 sensors tack signal tps and injecter plugs vw bus transaxle modified to bolt to the bellhousing

[This message has been edited by bubbajoexxx (edited 05-19-2010).]

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Fiero84Freak
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Report this Post05-19-2010 10:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero84FreakClick Here to Email Fiero84FreakSend a Private Message to Fiero84FreakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This is an awesome build. For sure looking forward to seeing more work done.

 
quote
Originally posted by Isolde:

Are those rears the Yokohama 345/35R15s? I thought only Pirelli still had any of those left in that size.


From what I understand Pirelli has discontinued the P Zero 345/35R15. The front tires are still available however.
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Report this Post05-19-2010 10:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IsoldeSend a Private Message to IsoldeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Tire Rack has 6 of them in stock right this very minute. Maybe I should cash in a Certificate of Deposit and order a pair.
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Lambo nut
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Report this Post05-19-2010 10:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lambo nutSend a Private Message to Lambo nutEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have a new pair of the P zero's 345/35ZR15's, never installed I need to sell, but I have not figured out the best way to go about doing it. Shipping is pretty high for an individual to ship these.I switched to 17"s when I could not get the 15" wheels I wanted. Of course I had already bought the tires before I found this out.

Kevin
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25thCountach
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Report this Post05-20-2010 12:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 25thCountachClick Here to Email 25thCountachSend a Private Message to 25thCountachEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Pirelli stills makes the 345/35 ZR15 but in very limeted quantities only two months a year, this month and one other. either April or June, can't recall

Will
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motoracer838
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Report this Post05-26-2010 10:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for motoracer838Click Here to Email motoracer838Send a Private Message to motoracer838Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You were asking about these in will's thread.





They are definantly the finishing touch





As you can see they are in, I can do a set of four with about a week to a week and a half lead time for $150.00 shipped

Cheers Beers n Gearz. Joe
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88lambo
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Report this Post05-27-2010 12:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It looks like your diameter is about 3"??? i have to verify, but i think mine are 2.5"...
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88lambo
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Report this Post05-27-2010 12:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
I admit I'm no engineer, but I have experience breaking (drag race Camaro) axles. I don't know if Dutchman has survived this recession, but they're a smaller outfit known for good quality custom axles. They shouldn't be too busy.
If your 2.74 x 2.41 is an automatic, then you need to remember the torque converter can reach multiplication of at least 1.6. So multiply engine torque times 1.6 times 2.74 times 2.41.
You mentioned a safety factor of 1.75. Consider that if your tires are sticky, and you drive one tire through a water puddle while making a tight slow turn, which can happen in city driving, then you get on it to spin the water away (very fun in corvettes) If the one tire was hooked and the other suddenly hooks, your shock load can be more than twice the torque you calculated for normal conditions


Little confused if you are saying i could be getting between 1200-2400ft-lbs torque why is it when you dyno a car the torque (at the wheels) is usually less then at engine???

I know in drag racing you can build up huge Instantaneous torque because you rev the engine high and "launch" the car with very sticky tires, this actually creates a huge shere stress which is what probably breaks the axle...

I will still be getting an axle made, but at $800-$1000 i can get a good running V12 BMW...
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Report this Post05-27-2010 01:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for motoracer838Click Here to Email motoracer838Send a Private Message to motoracer838Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 88lambo:

It looks like your diameter is about 3"??? i have to verify, but i think mine are 2.5"...


The od on the caps is 2.800", it's possible that the LC15 wheels with the 5X100mm bolt circle might have a smaller id. If that's the case I'd need the actual id of the wheel in order to have a set made up that will fit correctly.

Joe
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Report this Post05-27-2010 02:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 25thCountachClick Here to Email 25thCountachSend a Private Message to 25thCountachEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
very, very, few owners "Launch" a Countach.... tires are too rare ..The Countach was never designed for low end anyway...
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Report this Post05-27-2010 03:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IsoldeSend a Private Message to IsoldeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 88lambo:


Little confused if you are saying i could be getting between 1200-2400ft-lbs torque why is it when you dyno a car the torque (at the wheels) is usually less then at engine???

I know in drag racing you can build up huge Instantaneous torque because you rev the engine high and "launch" the car with very sticky tires, this actually creates a huge shere stress which is what probably breaks the axle...

I will still be getting an axle made, but at $800-$1000 i can get a good running V12 BMW...

When we chassis-dyno a car, we do it in whatever gear is closest to 1.00:1, which is never first gear. And when doing it with an automatic, we start the pull at an engine rpm above the converter stall speed. So with most automatics, your torque at the treads is about 75-80% of engine torque, due to the power necessary to run the drivetrain, and to pump the fluid through the automatic.
But when we're considering maximum possible torque at the tread to determine axle strength, we multiply engine torque by first gear by final drive ratio, and if it's an auto, multiply all that by 1.6 or more because of the torque converter.
If you're still confused, then it's my bad for not being great at putting concepts into words.
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Will
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Report this Post05-27-2010 03:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 88lambo:
Little confused if you are saying i could be getting between 1200-2400ft-lbs torque why is it when you dyno a car the torque (at the wheels) is usually less then at engine???

I know in drag racing you can build up huge Instantaneous torque because you rev the engine high and "launch" the car with very sticky tires, this actually creates a huge shere stress which is what probably breaks the axle...

I will still be getting an axle made, but at $800-$1000 i can get a good running V12 BMW...


An engine dyno measures torque directly and uses that to calculate horsepower.
A chassis dyno uses speed and acceleration of a known mass to measure power directly and calculate torque. Thus the chassis dyno automatically backs the differential ratio out of the equation.

 
quote
Originally posted by Isolde:

When we chassis-dyno a car, we do it in whatever gear is closest to 1.00:1, which is never first gear. And when doing it with an automatic, we start the pull at an engine rpm above the converter stall speed. So with most automatics, your torque at the treads is about 75-80% of engine torque, due to the power necessary to run the drivetrain, and to pump the fluid through the automatic.
But when we're considering maximum possible torque at the tread to determine axle strength, we multiply engine torque by first gear by final drive ratio, and if it's an auto, multiply all that by 1.6 or more because of the torque converter.
If you're still confused, then it's my bad for not being great at putting concepts into words.


Dynoing 1:1 is irrelevant. Dynos are typically done in 4th (direct) with longitudinal 4, 5 and 6 speeds because that gear typically has the lowest parasitic loss, due to being a direct connection between the input and output shafts of the transmission. In some European 6 speeds, 5th gear is direct and would be the dyno gear of choice.

Beyond the parasitic loss argument, the differing gear ratios are only going to serve to accentuate or attentuate the effect of inertia of driveline components.
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Report this Post05-27-2010 07:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IsoldeSend a Private Message to IsoldeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Dynoing 1:1 is irrelevant. Dynos are typically done in 4th (direct) with longitudinal 4, 5 and 6 speeds because that gear typically has the lowest parasitic loss, due to being a direct connection between the input and output shafts of the transmission. In some European 6 speeds, 5th gear is direct and would be the dyno gear of choice.

Beyond the parasitic loss argument, the differing gear ratios are only going to serve to accentuate or attentuate the effect of inertia of driveline components.

I know 1:1 is irrelevant, what you typed is why I qualified with "closest to", though you went in to far more detail than I felt necessary.
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Will
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Report this Post05-28-2010 06:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
But in the case of a transverse transmission, even ratios close to 1:1 (like the 1.03 fourth gear in a Quad 4 282) don't have any particular advantage over other gears, since they're not direct and still involve a power transfer via gear mesh.

However, the taller the overall ratio, the lower the effect of rotating inertia of the powertrain on the power measurement.
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Report this Post05-28-2010 05:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for countach711Click Here to visit countach711's HomePageClick Here to Email countach711Send a Private Message to countach711Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bubbajoexxx:
toronto
this is what I am presently building with this engine


sweet car Bubba, do you have a build thread on this?
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Report this Post05-30-2010 10:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for motoracer838Click Here to Email motoracer838Send a Private Message to motoracer838Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by motoracer838:


The od on the caps is 2.800", it's possible that the LC15 wheels with the 5X100mm bolt circle might have a smaller id. If that's the case I'd need the actual id of the wheel in order to have a set made up that will fit correctly.

Joe


I saw a set of LC15's w/ 5X100 bolt pattern, the center is smaller (I didn't think to ask the owner to remove a cap and measure it.) if you want a set I'll need a measurement of the id.

Cheers Beers n Gearz. Joe
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88lambo
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Report this Post05-31-2010 10:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hey Joe I'll get back to you on the caps, i have an leak issue with the roof of my house, i may have to shell out $$$ for that...
very interested though, the cone caps that come with the wheels are cheap crap...

Thanks

John
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88lambo
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Report this Post06-08-2010 10:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
4 Banger out!!! Yay!!!!

Standard Photo in engine compartment...


some more shots...I really need a work shop, very crowded in garage and 2 cars and boat in driveway.
The plan is once boat is @ cottage (hopefully this weekend) move chassis out on driveway (to make room in garage and for sand blasting) I will be wrapping it when not working on it.
Strip cradle and sandblast and start V12 fitment.









Any one want a 2.5 with 76000KM (48000Miles) FREE just PM me...Oh I'm keeping the AC Compressor, and transmission

Also Lotus 7 for sale
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88lambo
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Report this Post06-09-2010 12:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Found a door lock to use for my countach...Not quite like original but I like it...
from a Fiat Panda.

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25thCountach
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Report this Post06-09-2010 09:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 25thCountachClick Here to Email 25thCountachSend a Private Message to 25thCountachEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
lemme guess.. Fiat Panda???

Cheers,
Will
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88lambo
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Report this Post06-27-2010 12:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Little Update:

Not much being done, no room to work in garage, going to take the Lotus to a couple more shows to see if i can get some bites on selling it, if not will put it into storage to make room to work.
I ordered a custom made axle from Dutchman, should be here late next week or early week after..

I just got original Lamborghini tailights... Thanks Will for info on finding these. They look better than the "replica" ones I bought last year...took me a bit of looking it seems that the Left hand taillights are harder to find and complete sets even more rare


Original Countach Taillights


Replica Countach Taillights

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25thCountach
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Report this Post06-29-2010 08:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 25thCountachClick Here to Email 25thCountachSend a Private Message to 25thCountachEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
big difference ehh?
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88lambo
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Report this Post06-30-2010 12:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yup, Much...

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88lambo
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Report this Post07-18-2010 10:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Got my custom axle from Dutchman!!!! I will still have to get a adaptor made to mate the axle bolt pattern to the halfshaft bolt pattern (i have it already designed and a drawing made) Dutchman could only drill wheel bolt patterns not custom. I went with Dutchman because they could modify one of their an existing axles (very similar to mine) without machining off the heat hardening. This dropped the price by over $600 instead making a complete custom axle an then having it hardened.

new custom one piece hardened axle


old modified 3 piece welded axle
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Report this Post08-12-2010 09:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ghost187xSend a Private Message to ghost187xEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
bump
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88lambo
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Report this Post09-16-2010 11:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Cottage season coming to a close, starting back on Lambo. Ordered My wiring harness from www.choiceautowiring.com

Placed the engine/transmission assembly into the engine compartment to figure where to modify the firewall. I cut the firewall and the metal to make the box to reseal the fire wall. will probably weld it in this weekend.
I have also been designing a custom coilover rear cradle to improve the performance/handling. Most of the rear frame will be cut out and a tube engine compartment made...

Engine in engine compartment





You can see where the end of the transmission proturdes into the passenger compartment about 2".



Box around transmission in passenger compartment






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Report this Post09-17-2010 12:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for HockadaySend a Private Message to HockadayEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Now I want a v12 in my future fiero...wonder how much it'd cost to have someone do this haha. keep up the great work.

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In recent times, the custom aftermarket car/automobile roadwheel has become a status symbol. These wheels are often incorrectly referred to as "rims". The term "rim" is incorrect because the rim is only the outer portion of a wheel (where the tire is mounted )

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Report this Post09-17-2010 09:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Francis TClick Here to visit Francis T's HomePageClick Here to Email Francis TSend a Private Message to Francis TEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just note on that v12, If it's the engine I think it is, it uses two o2 sensors one each bank or whatever, if you get them crossed it will run but drive you nuts. If starts to act wierd, they may be crossed. Interesting project BTW, good luck with it.
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Report this Post09-19-2010 04:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 25thCountachClick Here to Email 25thCountachSend a Private Message to 25thCountachEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
how goes your build? updates?

Will
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bump
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Report this Post11-05-2010 07:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 88lambo:




That zig zag is going to absolutely kill the beam stiffness of that right frame rail.
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88lambo
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From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2010


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Report this Post11-05-2010 10:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
design is not complete, the lower and upper rail are going to be tied together with triangulated ladder frame, and three more cross members, one removable one under the engine and the other two at the rear Upper and lower beams. I am planning on making the grey part of frame a removable cradle so i can drop the engine/transmission like the fiero...

this month has been a write off for working on the car, some lady decided that she didn't have to stop at a red light and took out my car and broke my wife's shoulder...More unexpected expenses having to buy a new car 3-4 years earlier than we were planning...

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