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Longitudinal BMW V12 in a Stock Fiero Engine Compartment - 25th Anniversary Countach by 88lambo
Started on: 04-11-2010 01:54 AM
Replies: 279 (53640 views)
Last post by: Shantali on 10-09-2019 03:38 AM
Jonesy
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Will
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Report this Post04-19-2010 12:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by 88lambo:
Took the oil pan to work last week, they couldn't weld the tube into it (cast aluminum is very porous and you just end up chasing cracks so they wouldn't even try) so after a bit of research i found a Epoxy/aluminum filler that can be submersed in oil/gas/diesel should be here Tuesday. I have to do a bit more cleaning of the oil pan...


Sounds like they either didn't want to bother or didn't have a good welder on the payroll. I've had cast aluminum welded plenty of times.

I would be concerned about the pan staying flat through the welding required, however.

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25thCountach
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Report this Post04-19-2010 12:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 25thCountachClick Here to Email 25thCountachSend a Private Message to 25thCountachEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I think you may find your answer here....I used the silver solder to fix Mark's light buckets, worked great on pot metal

http://www.muggyweld.com/index2.html

Will

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88lambo
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Report this Post04-19-2010 08:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hey Will

Its not that we don't have good welders but 99.9% of the welding done here is MIG so if the guys have never welded cast aluminum then i'm glad they won't do it. as for the aluminum brazing rods, they look like the thing to use, i don't have a torch and haven't done brazing for years. I will see if i can find someone that can do it. i prefer to have it welded.
the epoxy/aluminum stuff i ordered can be powder coated so if i do use it i may powder coat the pan to ensure its really sealed.

Thanks for the info

John

[This message has been edited by 88lambo (edited 04-19-2010).]

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bubbajoexxx
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find some one that does tig welding and you can get it welded without problems tig is the only way to weld a oil pan

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88lambo
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Report this Post04-22-2010 01:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Still waiting for my axle, Just went down to the shop and Nicely asked if he could get them out this week, He's welding them right now...woo hoo!!!
i will finish the axle carrier bearing bracket this weekend, then Tranny is off to the tranny builder

Also still waiting on special bolts to bolt my flywheel and spacer together, they are a bastard size (M12 x 1.5 x 70mm Long, Grade12.9) special order $12 each x 9

I try to get some photos of the pieces to put everything together soon...

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R Runner
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Report this Post04-22-2010 09:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for R RunnerClick Here to visit R Runner's HomePageClick Here to Email R RunnerSend a Private Message to R RunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Great Build!

------------------
Paul

My IMSA Build: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/789315
HHP Adjustable Sway Bars: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/036556.html

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88lambo
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Report this Post04-23-2010 12:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

got my axle back and took it to the machine shop to have the welds turned down flush with the axle shaft, holy cow the welder did a perfect job, absolutely NO wobble in the shaft...

will post photo tomorrow...

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88lambo
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Report this Post04-23-2010 09:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Lengthened Axle and nosy cat...

Before


After

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rogergarrison
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Report this Post04-23-2010 09:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

looking great. Youll have the Lambo looks with BMW reliability. People I know with newer Lambos have nothing but problems with them. One even sued the dealship and got them to take it back after a year for a full complete refund. I didnt run a week without a breakdown.

I had a Warlock kit, supposedly the best there was. I got the roadster (huge mistake). The roof and OEM windshield didnt come even close to fitting...windshield was crooked in frame by almost 2 inches...threw roof away and made scratch one. I got so fed up with it, I found a buyer before it was finished. Body was done and painted, new motor and brakes, suspension and wheels/tires. No interior and not driveable.

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motoracer838
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Report this Post04-24-2010 10:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for motoracer838Click Here to Email motoracer838Send a Private Message to motoracer838Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

looking great. Youll have the Lambo looks with BMW reliability. People I know with newer Lambos have nothing but problems with them. One even sued the dealship and got them to take it back after a year for a full complete refund. I didnt run a week without a breakdown.

I had a Warlock kit, supposedly the best there was. I got the roadster (huge mistake). The roof and OEM windshield didnt come even close to fitting...windshield was crooked in frame by almost 2 inches...threw roof away and made scratch one. I got so fed up with it, I found a buyer before it was finished. Body was done and painted, new motor and brakes, suspension and wheels/tires. No interior and not driveable.



Warlock, wow there' a name that I haven't heard in a while!!! As you probably know now, it was simply IFG operating under another name. IFG definantly didn't help the image of the kitcar market, one of my jobs in kitcars was at Lammers engineering doing Countach's with IFG bodies, so I'm familiar with the crap that you had to deal with.

Joe

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rogergarrison
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Report this Post04-24-2010 01:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

One of the most flagrant screw ups they did was put the gas filler door on the passenger side....duhhhh. I had to cut a foot square panel out around it, do the same on the driver side and switch them, bonding both sides back in. They gave me a box of Volkswagen latches to hold the hood, trunk and roof panel down.

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25thCountach
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Report this Post04-24-2010 04:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 25thCountachClick Here to Email 25thCountachSend a Private Message to 25thCountachEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

for Marks car anyway, the filler tube is on the passenger side actually...

Will

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Report this Post04-24-2010 08:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

OK, but a fiero filler is on driver side ??? Never paid any attention....what side is a real Lambos on ?

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25thCountach
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Report this Post04-26-2010 03:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 25thCountachClick Here to Email 25thCountachSend a Private Message to 25thCountachEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I can only go by my owners/parts manuals on the 89 and the pics I took of the 1980's car at the recent show

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88lambo
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Report this Post04-29-2010 11:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Carrier bearing support plate complete & Oil Pan Mods...

Axle Carrier Bearing Support Plate (Nuts are not fully tightened)




Oil Pan Mods (Lab-Metal Epoxy filler/sealer)




I may seal the inside of the oil pan with Glyptal 1201 Paint or have it powdercoated as a precaution http://www.eastwood.com/gly...tml?srccode=ga130065

Modified Windage Tray


Next move Countach body to other side of garage so I can lift Fiero chassis to pull Cradle/Engine/Tranny out...

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88lambo
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Report this Post04-30-2010 02:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Just as a side note I got my custom axle from Ross @ Street Dreams and he will be making the other one once I get the length figured out.
http://www.streetdreamsbyross.com
They make Hot Rod, Replica and Fiero goodies including stuff for engine swaps including the longitudinal swap, door hinges etc...



[This message has been edited by 88lambo (edited 04-30-2010).]

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ltlfrari
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That's gonna be on fast moving furniture dolly when it's done!

------------------
Dave

www.ltlfrari.com

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motoracer838
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Report this Post05-02-2010 08:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for motoracer838Click Here to Email motoracer838Send a Private Message to motoracer838Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

lookin' good

can't wait to see it in the car.

Joe

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Report this Post05-09-2010 05:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ghost187xSend a Private Message to ghost187xEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

bump!

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88lambo
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Report this Post05-11-2010 06:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Got a big Scare last night, i went to move the engine on the cart (doing a re-org to get ready for pulling Fiero cradle out) and the cart fell apart and engine fell to the floor...I was lucky that it didn't fall over and very far, some of the wood blocks got stuck under it and supported it. I had the oil pan off and the oil pump was exposed but it didn't hit the floor

Lesson learned DON'T Nail together the cart!!!! Nails pull out of wood!!! Cart is now screwed together...

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88lambo
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Report this Post05-15-2010 10:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Some other parts I have collected so far...

Gauge pod for dash, fairly accurate it even had a slight domed top like the real Countach


Windshield defrost vents (Volvo 240)


Hood and trunk release levers (Fiat X1/9)


A/C vents (Fiat X1/9)


Mirrors


Rear decals


Side Marker lights


Taillights, I may try to get more athentic ones...but these are close...ish


Headlights (BMW, they fit my pods perfectly...)


Center console & Front turnsignal pods


Front turnsignal pod


Front Hood


Underside of front hood


Rear engine cover and trunk cover


Rear wing




Exhaust shroud


Exhaust shroud and rear bumper


Seat shell


Side and nose Emblems


Frame 3D model I have been working on. This is based on a partial drawing set I got 15 years ago. I have modified the original frame design by adding trianglation (more strength) and will be modeling brackets for Corvette suspension components
This frame is for a countach with Porshe or Audi Transaxle and SBC engine, but other engine mounting could be adapted...


Another Frame design I have been working on, similar to the first one except using Fiero front and rear suspension components
I may use this or a combination of this frame and Fiero Tub in my Replica...

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katore8105
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Report this Post05-16-2010 08:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for katore8105Click Here to visit katore8105's HomePageSend a Private Message to katore8105Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Jesus, I can't wait to see more of this build. I have seen a lot of pioneering builds here that seem to hit a wall that keeps them from finishing the project. Not saying this is the case here but man, if this build does finish as intended, that will be a major feat. I am in the process of finishing up my Duke build and getting ready to move onto a 3800 build but I have been searching for something that will likely take me 10 years but will be my final build. If this one works out, I would have to say I am going to make your guide my final build. I can't imagine that I would ever find another build that would entice me more than this.

To me, this would be the ultimate touring car.

Edit: Please! post up as much information as you possible can for those of us that aren't so good at design but will spend their dieing breath following proper design. Much respect sir!

[This message has been edited by katore8105 (edited 05-16-2010).]

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RUFAZZ
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Report this Post05-17-2010 08:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RUFAZZClick Here to Email RUFAZZSend a Private Message to RUFAZZEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Very nice!!!!


What process did you use to make your adapter?

Adrian

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Isolde
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Report this Post05-17-2010 09:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IsoldeSend a Private Message to IsoldeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ltlfrari:

That's gonna be on fast moving furniture dolly when it's done!



let's call Guinness.
OP: are you thinking of driving a welded 3 piece axle? Or is is just something to send to Moser or Dutchman so they can make you a matching 1-piece copy? If you drive the 3-piece, then when it fails it'll take the engine out with it.
Not hatin', just concerned. Seriously.

[This message has been edited by Isolde (edited 05-17-2010).]

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88lambo
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Report this Post05-17-2010 10:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I was going to drive the axle as is, 1.25 diameter axle with percision ground hardened spacer with qty2 - 2" x 1/2" dowel pins pressed together (for alignment) with a 1/2" weld all around using a process we do our hardened steel armor panels with. But....I will get our Stress analsys guy to check it out. I will also check out the guys you mentioned. I couldn't find anyone locally that could do a one piece...i would prefer a one piece
But saying that aren't all axles welded? how is the flange put on?

John

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88lambo
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Report this Post05-17-2010 01:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Just checked with the our stress analysis engineer on the axle, using 350 ft-lbs of torque and assumed the axle is welded with 44W wire (44000psi tensile strength, minimum strenth wire we use) I have a safety factor of 1.75...Ok, but could be better, but is the axle really getting 350 torque after the differential?
I'm investigating a custom axle, Moser does not make one.

If anyone has suggestions where I could get on made I would appreciate it.

John

[This message has been edited by 88lambo (edited 05-17-2010).]

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88lambo
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Report this Post05-17-2010 01:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
What process did you use to make your adapter?


I will post how I got the pattern when I get home so I have access to my photos, but I did reply to your PM, did you not receive it?

John

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Will
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Report this Post05-17-2010 02:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by 88lambo:

Just checked with the our stress analysis engineer on the axle, using 350 ft-lbs of torque and assumed the axle is welded with 44W wire (44000psi tensile strength, minimum strenth wire we use) I have a safety factor of 1.75...Ok, but could be better, but is the axle really getting 350 torque after the differential?
I'm investigating a custom axle, Moser does not make one.

If anyone has suggestions where I could get on made I would appreciate it.

John




One axle will see engine output * torque convertor multiplication * first gear ratio * final drive ratio / 2. Even if the convertor multiplication is 1, you'll still have engine torque * first gear ratio * final drive ratio / 2.

For my Northstar/Getrag car, 300 ftlbs at the input shaft * 3.50 first gear * 3.61 final / 2 = 1895 ftlbs.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-17-2010).]

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88lambo
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Report this Post05-17-2010 03:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I think the engineer took that into consideration. but will verify, Thanks.
With your calulations I'm looking at around 1160 Ft-lbs... 350Ft-lbs x 2.74 First gear x 2.41 Final Drive

MarkWilliams Enterprises say they should be able to make an axle for me, I sent photos to them for estimate...

Any more suggestions where to get them made???

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Isolde
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Report this Post05-17-2010 09:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IsoldeSend a Private Message to IsoldeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I admit I'm no engineer, but I have experience breaking (drag race Camaro) axles. I don't know if Dutchman has survived this recession, but they're a smaller outfit known for good quality custom axles. They shouldn't be too busy.
If your 2.74 x 2.41 is an automatic, then you need to remember the torque converter can reach multiplication of at least 1.6. So multiply engine torque times 1.6 times 2.74 times 2.41.
You mentioned a safety factor of 1.75. Consider that if your tires are sticky, and you drive one tire through a water puddle while making a tight slow turn, which can happen in city driving, then you get on it to spin the water away (very fun in corvettes) If the one tire was hooked and the other suddenly hooks, your shock load can be more than twice the torque you calculated for normal conditions.

[This message has been edited by Isolde (edited 05-17-2010).]

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Will
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Report this Post05-18-2010 01:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by 88lambo:

I think the engineer took that into consideration. but will verify, Thanks.


Did he ask you for the gear ratios? If he didn't, then I bet he didn't take them into account.

44 ksi is tissue paper compared to hardened steels from which axles are made.

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88lambo
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Report this Post05-18-2010 03:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I'm going to get one made...got one quote from Markwilliams Ent. $800-$900 Ouch!!! This would be total custom one off...

I'm also looking into adapting an off the shelf shortened RWD axle with a custom bearing carrier

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Isolde
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Report this Post05-18-2010 03:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IsoldeSend a Private Message to IsoldeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by 88lambo:

I was going to drive the axle as is, 1.25 diameter axle with percision ground hardened spacer with qty2 - 2" x 1/2" dowel pins pressed together (for alignment) with a 1/2" weld all around using a process we do our hardened steel armor panels with. But....I will get our Stress analsys guy to check it out. I will also check out the guys you mentioned. I couldn't find anyone locally that could do a one piece...i would prefer a one piece
But saying that aren't all axles welded? how is the flange put on?

John

That's a good question, how do they get from flange to shaft? I have a Strange catalog, and it shows and tells a lot about their 1-piece racing axles, so I guess they forge a net shape, then lathe away whatever they have to. Probably like making concrete nails. Only concrete nails don't get lathed.

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88lambo
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Report this Post05-18-2010 05:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Yup Forged, machined, then heat hardened...

It would be pretty bad if I used the axle and toasted the engine and tranny first time out...

Thanks for opening my eyes

John

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RUFAZZ
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Report this Post05-18-2010 11:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RUFAZZClick Here to Email RUFAZZSend a Private Message to RUFAZZEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by 88lambo:


I will post how I got the pattern when I get home so I have access to my photos, but I did reply to your PM, did you not receive it?

John


Yeah, I finally logged in to read them...

I kinda thought that might have been the way you did it but I had to ask

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88lambo
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Report this Post05-18-2010 11:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88lamboSend a Private Message to 88lamboEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
What process did you use to make your adapter?


First I would check if there isn't an adapter plate made for your transmission/engine combo...
Kennedy Engineering Products makes many adapter plate/flywheel combinations at a reasonable cost, including BMW V12 to many Porsche, VW and the Audi Transaxle.
http://www.kennedyeng.com/vw_por.htm

Since I am adapting the THM325 Transmission (BOP Bolt pattern) to the BWM (A first I think) i could not find an adapter plate, nor could i find the M70 BMW V12 Block Bolt pattern.

Ok this is how i got the bolt pattern of the BMW side of the adapter plate.
Notes: I had a drawing for BOP bolt pattern referenced from the center. If you don't have this info for your transmission you will have to get it.


1) Get equal length bolts that fit the hole size that are used to secure the transmission (M10 and M8) using a lathe turn the heads off into a spike. Then thread them into the engine (see photo)


2) Get a steel pin made to fit the BMW Crank pilot hole (which is 32mm diameter), you want the pin tight enough that there is No play but NOT a press fit, you want to get it out. You need accutate measurments!!!!


3) I made the overall shape of the adapter plate with the BOP bolt pattern with the center hole a machined to be a tight sliding fit to the pin made above. The less play you have the better engine transmission alignment you have. I had a friend who made an adapter plate that was 0.040" off than the vibration was horrible...

4) Next I scribed a vertical line from the center hole to the top of my plate to help me align the engine transmission. I slid the adapter plate onto the alignment pin to the spikes. make sure all the spikes are touching the adapter plate. I used the scribed line and the two top spikes for alignment (putting the line in the center of the two top spikes)
Once this is all lined up i just smacked the adapter plate with deadblow mallet, this center punched the pattern into the plate (my plate is aluminum so its soft compared to the steel spikes)

5) I remove the plate and finished drilling my holes and installing my studs (which are actually counter sunk bolts in a threaded hole, less chance that it will pull out of the aluminum.) Then secured the adapter plate to the engine.

6) Another thing is did just ensure alignment, is i had channels the same diameter of the actual center hole of the plate, so i could use the alignment pin when securing the plate to the BMW engine. Then i just cut the tabs to remove the center piece....

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bubbajoexxx
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Report this Post05-19-2010 01:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bubbajoexxxClick Here to visit bubbajoexxx's HomePageClick Here to Email bubbajoexxxSend a Private Message to bubbajoexxxEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I am trying to understand why you extended the chassis in the floor area and not at the rear frame rails as done by most Countach builders .
the rear stretch at the frame rails allows an extra 5 inches in the engine bay but the way you stretched the car the engine bay stays the same .
to enlarge the bay on you chassis you will need to do major surgery in the tunnel floor pan fire wall and rear suspension to get the extra 5 inches





[This message has been edited by bubbajoexxx (edited 05-19-2010).]

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Isolde
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Report this Post05-19-2010 01:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IsoldeSend a Private Message to IsoldeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Are those rears the Yokohama 345/35R15s? I thought only Pirelli still had any of those left in that size.

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