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Author
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Topic: v6 swaps check this out!!!
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BabyVet
Member Posts: 1034
From: Kansas City, Kansas
Registered: May 2008
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I'm part of this fourm and i found this guy. I think that this would be a sweet build for a fiero except the twin turbo i don't
think we have the room could be wrong.
http://www.gmperformancetun.../lt1-eating-v6-7973/------------------
BabyVet
http://s298.photobucket.com...all/BabyVet%20Build/ IP: Logged |
darkhorizon
Member Posts: 8170
From: Flint Michigan
Registered: Jan 2006
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He is going to have a tough time breaking anything record wise with that setup...IP: Logged |
BlackGT Codde
Member Posts: 660
From: matress/tster/ville, TN U.S.A
Registered: Mar 2008
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lot of money in that car $$
but
very nice very very nice.
im lookin at a 3.4 myself and possibly the 3.8
but leaning toward polishing a 2.5 4cyl with a lot of money
just for some good gas mileage. ex:
port heads. new valvetrain longer duration cam, run a carburetor setup and a 50 amp alternator
but there is also that 4.3 oldsmobile diesel that ive always wanted really bad.
im dreamin but hey it could happen someday
man i wish gm would hurry on their new 4.5 smallblock duramax
and some 4cyl diesel to go with it.
edit for spellin[This message has been edited by BlackGT Codde (edited 10-12-2008).] IP: Logged |
engine man
Member Posts: 1872
From: West Palm Beach FL
Registered: Mar 2006
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Hmmm he is using the fast burn canted valve heads dont know why it hasent been used in a fiero build IP: Logged |
BabyVet
Member Posts: 1034
From: Kansas City, Kansas
Registered: May 2008
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| | | quote | Originally posted by engine man:
Hmmm he is using the fast burn canted valve heads dont know why it hasent been used in a fiero build |
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can you explain more please?? thanks
i have talked to him he know what he is taking about could we do a N/A virsion of this in the fiero?
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Joseph Upson
Member Posts: 2625
From: Tampa Florida
Registered: Jan 2002
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He's a regular member of the 60 degree V6 forum and that's the top end of the 3500 V6 he's using in his build. Looks expensive but it's not since he is doing the work himself. There is a lot of performance to be gained from the aluminum heads with little input so more V6 hot rodders on other forums are switching to them or the entire motor. Six shooter is another boosted hybrid V6 owner that you may come across at some point. The downside is that the non aluminum head blocks show their weakness under aluminum heads and boost in the 400 hp 400 + lb/ft range; the main caps start to give out as experienced by the twin turbo V6 chevette owner running a rear wheel drive 60 degree block.
The fwd blocks have the benefit of the cross bolts going through the aluminum pan into the main caps along with the oil splash guard doubling as a main cap girdle.IP: Logged |
Joseph Upson
Member Posts: 2625
From: Tampa Florida
Registered: Jan 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by BabyVet:
can you explain more please?? thanks
i have talked to him he know what he is taking about could we do a N/A virsion of this in the fiero?
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Yes you can, it's already been done by merlot who's brother currently owns the car. They took the best approach and used the complete engine instead of mixing parts across generations. Forcedfirebird is building a hybrid out of convenience and testing and if I recall correctly he will switching to either the 3500 or 3900 later on.
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engine man
Member Posts: 1872
From: West Palm Beach FL
Registered: Mar 2006
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I dont see why it looks like he is using gen 3 heads on a 3.4 they are aluminum canted valve gen 2 aluminum heads are the same but dont flow as good as the gen 3 since i need to put a engine in mine IP: Logged |
Joseph Upson
Member Posts: 2625
From: Tampa Florida
Registered: Jan 2002
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| | | quote | Originally posted by engine man:
Hmmm he is using the fast burn canted valve heads dont know why it hasent been used in a fiero build |
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Many Fiero owners don't want to deal with rewiring or the loss of the Fiero look, or favor the 3800 for practically the same output but with a good bit more weight. The aluminum head engines give a good bit of return from moderate upgrades. Porting the heads yourself and spending a few hundred on a cam upgrade and headers will give you an easy 250 hp. Superdave on the 60 degree forum made 300 hp at the crank with a natrually aspirated 3500.IP: Logged |
BabyVet
Member Posts: 1034
From: Kansas City, Kansas
Registered: May 2008
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Joseph Upson:
He's a regular member of the 60 degree V6 forum and that's the top end of the 3500 V6 he's using in his build. Looks expensive but it's not since he is doing the work himself. There is a lot of performance to be gained from the aluminum heads with little input so more V6 hot rodders on other forums are switching to them or the entire motor. Six shooter is another boosted hybrid V6 owner that you may come across at some point. The downside is that the non aluminum head blocks show their weakness under aluminum heads and boost in the 400 hp 400 + lb/ft range; the main caps start to give out as experienced by the twin turbo V6 chevette owner running a rear wheel drive 60 degree block.
The fwd blocks have the benefit of the cross bolts going through the aluminum pan into the main caps along with the oil splash guard doubling as a main cap girdle. |
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Ok i have seen a little bit of six shooter and plese slow down here im (slow) lol ok so what your saying is that the hybrid is a 3.4 P/R block
with 3500 top end?
and ok so i don't have the money but say i did i would go get a 3500 and it would be a direct bolt in like a 3.4 P/R motor is?
is there any thing that i can do to my 3.4 be4 it get competly together in the car? sorry but i have already ported my heads and got springs for them. So is there anything else i can do?
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engine man
Member Posts: 1872
From: West Palm Beach FL
Registered: Mar 2006
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I think the gen 2 heads would help they came on 3.1 there not as good as the gen 3 but i bet there better than the iron headsIP: Logged |
BabyVet
Member Posts: 1034
From: Kansas City, Kansas
Registered: May 2008
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well i'm useing the 3.4 heads cause there 11 years newer and a little bigger valves i belive. A.R.I said i have the biggest valves
that i can get in to the heads. so they should flow good right pic of them on my sig
i have done some work myself on the intake side to flatin them out some more and opened them up a hair. i'll try to get some pics
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BabyVet
http://s298.photobucket.com...all/BabyVet%20Build/[This message has been edited by BabyVet (edited 10-12-2008).] IP: Logged |
engine man
Member Posts: 1872
From: West Palm Beach FL
Registered: Mar 2006
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valve size helps but port design is most importan thats why the gen 2 and 3 are better headsIP: Logged |
BabyVet
Member Posts: 1034
From: Kansas City, Kansas
Registered: May 2008
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| | | quote | Originally posted by engine man:
valve size helps but port design is most importan thats why the gen 2 and 3 are better heads |
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so what year and what car can i get them from?
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engine man
Member Posts: 1872
From: West Palm Beach FL
Registered: Mar 2006
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Beretta , Corsica & Celeberity it says 87 up in the book for gen 2 aluminum headsIP: Logged |
BabyVet
Member Posts: 1034
From: Kansas City, Kansas
Registered: May 2008
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| | | quote | Originally posted by engine man:
Beretta , Corsica & Celeberity it says 87 up in the book for gen 2 aluminum heads |
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but i thought you couldn't putt aluminum heads on a 2.8-3.4 with iron heads
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engine man
Member Posts: 1872
From: West Palm Beach FL
Registered: Mar 2006
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you cant put the DOHC heads on these are pushrod heads just have a canted valve IP: Logged |
BabyVet
Member Posts: 1034
From: Kansas City, Kansas
Registered: May 2008
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| | | quote | Originally posted by engine man:
you cant put the DOHC heads on these are pushrod heads just have a canted valve |
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understood
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Dennis LaGrua
Member Posts: 6106
From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A.
Registered: May 2000
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A most unusual and creative engine build. Hope he realizes that he's not going to make a record run even wih the amount of work that engine has. He will hit low 13's with that engine in a Firebird; not terrible but not spectacular. Let's see if my guess is correct. ------------------
87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE " IP: Logged |
engine man
Member Posts: 1872
From: West Palm Beach FL
Registered: Mar 2006
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Oh ya you will need the intake that fits the heads IP: Logged |
Isolde
Member Posts: 744
From: North Logan, Utah, USA
Registered: May 2008
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In a Fiero, that might kill an LT1 F-car, but 264 ft-lbs is not enough to run a heavy firebird LT1-quick. So he thinks he's gonna have a 28-horse advantage. For less money, trading that POS for a factory-V8 F-car, then adding a K&N FIPK and headers woulda got his stupid self a lot better acceleration, and a lot more potential. IP: Logged |
Taijiguy
Member Posts: 7463
From: Delaware, OH.
Registered: Jul 99
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| | | quote | Originally posted by engine man:
Oh ya you will need the intake that fits the heads |
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And the intake is for F/I, so you can't use a carb on this setup. You also have to use a DIS, as the intake covers the distributor opening.
As far as I know, no one makes a carb type intake for the aluminum heads. Although, the guy with the Chevette apparently built his own, and it's supposed to be a screamer.IP: Logged |
Forced_Firebird
Member Posts: 45
From: South Florida
Registered: Oct 2008
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No, it won't break any records since the fastest V6 Firebird is running 8's.
It takes a Thirdgen Firebird ~250wp to be in the high 13's - stock TPI's will do it all day. The car weighs about 3500lbs, but I have no idea how much it will weigh now.
HP potential for this motor is in the 500's but as Joseph mentioned the blocks are weak, and yes a full 3500 or 3900 will eventually go in. A local here has gotten 340hp out of a 3.4/3400 hybrid that's highly modified in a Midget car, and split the block at the valley whiloe running naturally aspirated.
The 3500 heads on my car are superior to the Gen2 heads in many ways, then I modified them more and have a cutom ground cam. Without the turbos Dynomation simulations say it should be in the 275hp area at the crank, and that is about the same as an LT1.
I put $1200 into the motor, $400 in turbos, $75 in header tubing, $340 in the Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump (good for 800hp boosted), and I scored two new 38mm waste gates from a racing forum for $100. I'm in serch of 80lb of more injectors. The same site that I got the wastegates from had a set of (8) 120# injectors for $300 but didn't have the cash flow at the time. I have yet to buy the rest of the plumming and intercooler. With 11.56:1 compression and the right cam, I'm hoping to see at leats 6psi with good tuning and possibly alcohol/meth injection and premium fuel.
And those of you who think my car won't be fast, I built a turbo kit for a Chevy Corsica that is running a 13 flat at 113mph. If the car would hook better (2.6 60') it would be deep into the 12's.
Here's a video of Loner's car (second race is the best)...
http://videos.streetfire.ne...track-fun_166595.htm[This message has been edited by Forced_Firebird (edited 10-20-2008).] IP: Logged |
Forced_Firebird
Member Posts: 45
From: South Florida
Registered: Oct 2008
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Oh, I forgot to mention. The rear was free, got it from an 11sec T/A along with the aluminum driveshaft, 3:45:1 9 bolt Aussie - AKA the 9bolt or Dana M78. Also got the 3" full exhaust from it, so I will have twin 2.5" downpipes to a single 3".
With 4 kids, a CNC machine shop and a construction company, my days are filled from 8am to Midnight or later, the weekeds are reserved (for the most part) with my 4 kids, dog, lawn to mow, and then I get to work on my car. This is a build that has taken over a year to get this far.
I like your sit by the way, some interesting builds here. My neighbor has a 350hp crte 327 in his 88 fast back. We are soon to swap the aluminum Patriot Freedom (Vortech style) heads, new cam and F40 6 speed tranny in it.
Here's some pics of that...
http://s158.photobucket.com...ebird/350hp%20Fiero/IP: Logged |
86stealthfiero
Member Posts: 667
From: zanesville ohio
Registered: Aug 2008
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i ran across this sometime back on cardomain thought it was interesting im not sure what he has planned as far as the track but its interesting http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2564404 its twin turbo 3.4------------------
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engine man
Member Posts: 1872
From: West Palm Beach FL
Registered: Mar 2006
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Forced_Firebird do you know any more about the engine that split did it break a rod then split or just split was he runing Alchol and 14 to1 compression just trying to under stand the strees he was puting on the block. I am thinking the guy had a main web failure wich went up to the valley this is just speculation[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 10-21-2008).] IP: Logged |
Forced_Firebird
Member Posts: 45
From: South Florida
Registered: Oct 2008
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| | | quote | Originally posted by 86stealthfiero:
i ran across this sometime back on cardomain thought it was interesting im not sure what he has planned as far as the track but its interesting http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2564404 its twin turbo 3.4
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I'm fimiliar with Powerdoctor's car. He made a brief appearance on 60degreev6. Why he used iron heads on a 3x00 FWD block is still beyond me.
QUOTE]Originally posted by engine man:
Forced_Firebird do you know any more about the engine that split did it break a rod then split or just split was he runing Alchol and 14 to1 compression just trying to under stand the strees he was puting on the block. I am thinking the guy had a main web failure wich went up to the valley this is just speculation
[/QUOTE]
No, I believe it was just the block that failed. I sold him a 3500 (lx9) block that he was going to work over. He's using a lot of custom parts like 6 individual TB's, foged crank, longer rods and custom pistons etc. The motor was run under 6500rpm and he was excited about the extra webbing and displacement increase of the 3500. We only talked for a few hours and haven't heard from him since. Wish I had scanned pics of the car/engine. Until the 3500 is finished he's using a 300hp iron duke 2.5 that utilizes a single modified V8 head.
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BabyVet
Member Posts: 1034
From: Kansas City, Kansas
Registered: May 2008
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| | | quote | Originally posted by Forced_Firebird:
No, I believe it was just the block that failed. I sold him a 3500 (lx9) block that he was going to work over. He's using a lot of custom parts like 6 individual TB's, foged crank, longer rods and custom pistons etc. The motor was run under 6500rpm and he was excited about the extra webbing and displacement increase of the 3500. We only talked for a few hours and haven't heard from him since. Wish I had scanned pics of the car/engine. Until the 3500 is finished he's using a 300hp iron duke 2.5 that utilizes a single modified V8 head. |
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Well its nice to see you on here now!!!  and i don't think i have asked this but if i was to got get 3500 heads can i swap them onto my 3.4 w/o any mods or very little mods? and what about the mid-intake? do you have to mod that to fit?
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BabyVet
http://s298.photobucket.com...all/BabyVet%20Build/ IP: Logged |
Taijiguy
Member Posts: 7463
From: Delaware, OH.
Registered: Jul 99
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Hey FF, good to see you on our forum. Thanks for your input on my questions about the 3.4 over there. I'm doing the swap this winter.IP: Logged |
Forced_Firebird
Member Posts: 45
From: South Florida
Registered: Oct 2008
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| | | quote | Originally posted by BabyVet:
Well its nice to see you on here now!!! and i don't think i have asked this but if i was to got get 3500 heads can i swap them onto my 3.4 w/o any mods or very little mods? and what about the mid-intake? do you have to mod that to fit?
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You will need the entire 3500 top end. If you are using the pedistal style rockers from the 3500, you may need custom pushrods because they aren't adjustable. I used a set from a Gen 3.1 Cavi and they were close enough to use after measurements (not all cam mfgr's have the same base circle take caution).
My compression is 11.56:1 since I used the stock 3.4 pistons, and have already determined that it will run on pump gas with a 272 or bigger cam to decrease cranking pressure. I rebuilt ans sold a 3500 top end to someone who didn't heed my warning about using a cam that's too small and he went with a 260. His cranking pressure is in the 260psi range. The car takes off like a freight train until it hits ~3000rpm (when the cam starts to reach it's efficiency), and then it starts detonating.
There are a few other things you will need to take care of. The 3500 TB is electronic, not cable, driven. You can purchase a TB adapter to use a 3400/3100 TB from WOT and he will be stocking the new adapters I'm making in my CNC shop that allows a 3.5DOHC 65mm TB to be used on the 3500 plenum (cable driven).
Then there are small details that will be unique to each build, like the coolant temp sensor on the 3500 head needs to be tapped to accept the iron heads sensor, or a three wire sensor used in the block.
You will need better than stock springs for a good sized bump stick, I used sprins from an LS6 (yellow), Ls1 spring shims, valve seals from a 2.2L 1991 Cavi (you'll need two packs), and stock locks/retainers. The Comp springs are much better but they werren't in the budget during the build.
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3.4/3500 Hybrid Twin Turbo... IP: Logged |
